V2 for my L3

Note: There was a big wordy post at the end of page 5 that explains some of the backstory for this part...hate it when a page turns over between related posts.

Paint Scheme:

As I said I changed my mind on the paint, and I'm going with the ragged camo using the details provided by Peter Alway in the thread I have repeatedly linked...for ease the pic is below if you are unfamiliar with the design.



After several rounds of testing I think I have colors I can live with using really friendly to apply paint. The Rusto 2X Satin is really close except for the brown, but I think it will still look pretty good. Valspar has a really close match on all three colors, but the paint was absolute crap, and there is no way I would get a good finish with it.






Nose Weight:

To figure out the removable nose weight I've been practicing with some steel pellets since my lead shot will not arrive until tomorrow. I need disks that will fit through the forward ring of the Nose cone, and the inner diameter of a piece of 2" PVC is just right with enough wiggle to make alignment less frustrating later. As a bottom for my mold I'm using a piece of foam that is glued to the PVC with foam safe craft adhesive... a good bond, but not too good as to be problematic on removal. So the epoxy doesn't stick the inside of the mold was smeared with a thin layer of silicone caulking. The pellets were added and cast in place with US Composites 635 laminating resin. After that hardened overnight it was easy to snap off the foam and press out the weight. This one is 1 1/4" think and weighs a little over 12 oz. The real weights will need a hole in the middle, and I can cast with a tube in the center, but I think it will be easier to just drill the weights on the press after the fact...either way will be fine. I'm estimating these will be a little under 1 lb per linear inch when done in lead and drilled. That will give me 5-6 weights in the space available, which will be plenty for the removable weights.



More on the fixed weight plan later.

Also, I ordered the chutes...I need a beer.

One more: Also, ordered my first OneBadHawk recovery Harness for the drogue section. Got the kevlar jacketed 3/4" nylon. Normally I use straight kevlar, but with all the nose weight I want some shock absorption to help keep the nose on (keep the shear pins intact). I'll still use straight 1/2" Tubular Kevlar in the main compartment since I have a lot.

Nifty nose-weight pucks.

Have you seen the Rustoleum 2X Camoflage selection of paints? My local walmart in AL carries them, but TX may not (especially in a city walmart)

Nytrunner said:

Nifty nose-weight pucks.

Have you seen the Rustoleum 2X Camoflage selection of paints? My local walmart in AL carries them, but TX may not (especially in a city walmart)

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Yes, WalMart and Lowes near me carries them, but they are further off on color than these are. These are definitely within the close enough range.

Cl(VII) said:

Note: There was a big wordy post at the end of page 5 that explains some of the backstory for this part...hate it when a page turns over between related posts.

Paint Scheme:

As I said I changed my mind on the paint, and I'm going with the ragged camo using the details provided by Peter Alway in the thread I have repeatedly linked...for ease the pic is below if you are unfamiliar with the design.



After several rounds of testing I think I have colors I can live with using really friendly to apply paint. The Rusto 2X Satin is really close except for the brown, but I think it will still look pretty good. Valspar has a really close match on all three colors, but the paint was absolute crap, and there is no way I would get a good finish with it.



...

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Nice ! I used that Rusto green on my Maxi V2. I used Testor's Afrika Mustard, of course you'd need a half dozen of those little cans. I left the light part primer white.

Cl(VII) said:

Yes, WalMart and Lowes near me carries them, but they are further off on color than these are. These are definitely within the close enough range.

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You are exactly right. I have all parts and plans for an 11.5" V2 which I will start in 2018 after finishing/flying my 10.5" Cherokee-N. I always had in the plan to do the Ragged motif. About a year back a local Walmart had all the Rustoleum Camo on sale for $1.97 per can. I bought 5 or 6 of about four different colors. None of them are quite right for the V2. Still deciding whether to go with what I have, or toss 'em.

samb said:

Nice ! I used that Rusto green on my Maxi V2. I used Testor's Afrika Mustard, of course you'd need a half dozen of those little cans. I left the light part primer white.

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Oooooh. That is a good match. Picked one up at Hobby Lobby on the way home. There is an HL about 1/2 mile from my house, so with the 40% off coupon applied each day this wouldn't be too bad. It applies well over the green, so it can go on last which will help with quantity. Strangely, the finish is inconsistent over the Heirloom White (hard to see in pic, but noticeable in person), but not any of the other three colors it is applied over. That also will puch it toward the last color applied. I really think I'm going to go with it. Thanks Sam!

dixontj93060 said:

You are exactly right. I have all parts and plans for an 11.5" V2 which I will start in 2018 after finishing/flying my 10.5" Cherokee-N. I always had in the plan to do the Ragged motif. About a year back a local Walmart had all the Rustoleum Camo on sale for $1.97 per can. I bought 5 or 6 of about four different colors. None of them are quite right for the V2. Still deciding whether to go with what I have, or toss 'em.

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Are you still planning to fly that Cherokee at Airfest this year? I really want to see that one fly.

iirc Testors Model Master line has the RAL 9003 Signal White, RAL 7028 Earth Gray, and the RAL 6003/RLM71 Olivgrun (Olive Green) in the little bottles (airbrush). I know that's a more expensive route, but a local paint supplier might be able to duplicate those colors from the Testors colors or the RAL numbers listed above.

rharshberger said:

iirc Testors Model Master line has the RAL 9003 Signal White, RAL 7028 Earth Gray, and the RAL 6003/RLM71 Olivgrun (Olive Green) in the little bottles (airbrush). I know that's a more expensive route, but a local paint supplier might be able to duplicate those colors from the Testors colors or the RAL numbers listed above.

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I appreciate the info, but I think I've reached the border between picky and obsessive. I am really happy with the three now that the brown is worked out. It was the only one that was off by more than a tiny bit. The finish of the three is a little different, but perhaps I can unify that with a satin clear coat when done.

Cl(VII) said:

I appreciate the info, but I think I've reached the border between picky and obsessive. I am really happy with the three now that the brown is worked out. It was the only one that was off by more than a tiny bit. The finish of the three is a little different, but perhaps I can unify that with a satin clear coat when done.

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No problem, unless its for competition purposes, close is plenty ok by me, its also more convenient.

Cl(VII) said:

Are you still planning to fly that Cherokee at Airfest this year? I really want to see that one fly.

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Yep, that's the plan.

Looking good - yes , nice job on the weight savings - going to pay off to see the long burn white M650! $600 in recovery - jeez, that's a little painful . Your homework will pay off for that though - as my attempt to save $180 on a main chute wound up in a non ideal decent rate , though no damage I'll still need to buy another chute.

Hope you can find it painting it that scheme .

I'm really hoping to come and see your flight at airfest - there is a possibility that will be my big rocket trip this year and I just bought another M1939 White for the big QCC slated for Airfest.

Cl(VII) said:

I appreciate the info, but I think I've reached the border between picky and obsessive. I am really happy with the three now that the brown is worked out. It was the only one that was off by more than a tiny bit. The finish of the three is a little different, but perhaps I can unify that with a satin clear coat when done.

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Very nice. If you have a long wait until the flight attempt do the satin clear coat. If not, make the rocket "earn" the clearcoat by yielding a successful certification flight for you! You shouldn't be the only one sweating it out! Make that rocket earn it!:wink:

Kurt

Nick@JET said:

Looking good - yes , nice job on the weight savings - going to pay off to see the long burn white M650! $600 in recovery - jeez, that's a little painful . Your homework will pay off for that though - as my attempt to save $180 on a main chute wound up in a non ideal decent rate , though no damage I'll still need to buy another chute.

Hope you can find it painting it that scheme .

I'm really hoping to come and see your flight at airfest - there is a possibility that will be my big rocket trip this year and I just bought another M1939 White for the big QCC slated for Airfest.

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I hope you make it as I would love to see that QCC fly. For that matter, I hope I make it. Even a well laid, and prior approved plan can only be so secure when you have two elementary schoolers.

As for the recovery, I have never looked back with regret when buying exactly the tool for the job. Besides, no one does their L3 expecting it to be cheap. Also, the High Power Rocketry calendar from Nadeen had a 15% off coupon in it...that calendar paid off and then some...and it's only January.

Ok, new year, time for my annual New Years Resolution: Airfest for sure ! This time I mean it !!

samb said:

Ok, new year, time for my annual New Years Resolution: Airfest for sure ! This time I mean it !!

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Yeah buddy!

Cl(VII) said:

As I said I changed my mind on the paint, and I'm going with the ragged camo using the details provided by Peter Alway in the thread I have repeatedly linked...for ease the pic is below if you are unfamiliar with the design.

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Nice choice...I've done a static model in that very scheme, using Peter's drawing as a guide. You can see photos of the finished model about 3/4 of the way down on this page:

https://www.spacemonkeymodels.com/pages/1-24-scale-v-2-model

Dunno if you're thinking about vinyl for the serial number markings yet, but I'd be happy to resize the .ai files used for the decal artwork on this project. Just drop me a line if you're interested.

James

James Duffy said:

Nice choice...I've done a static model in that very scheme, using Peter's drawing as a guide. You can see photos of the finished model about 3/4 of the way down on this page:

https://www.spacemonkeymodels.com/pages/1-24-scale-v-2-model

Dunno if you're thinking about vinyl for the serial number markings yet, but I'd be happy to resize the .ai files used for the decal artwork on this project. Just drop me a line if you're interested.

James

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Really sweet!

James Duffy said:

Nice choice...I've done a static model in that very scheme, using Peter's drawing as a guide. You can see photos of the finished model about 3/4 of the way down on this page:

https://www.spacemonkeymodels.com/pages/1-24-scale-v-2-model

Dunno if you're thinking about vinyl for the serial number markings yet, but I'd be happy to resize the .ai files used for the decal artwork on this project. Just drop me a line if you're interested.

James

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Very nice model, and a most gracious offer. I will let you know how I go on the decals. Strange as it may sound, I will probably stick to the Estes style as blatant rocket envy of Sam's V2 is part of what finally pushed me to change the paint plan. It just looks so cool...even if the markings are not historically accurate. I'll keep your offer in mind though as I have been known to change my mind.

Update: 4 1lb lead weights are done (they ended up 1.25" thick). I cast them with a 1/4" launch lug in the middle, so no need to drill (I didn't want to generate that much lead containing debris in an area my children use also). I am considering the best way to put in the permanent weight, and have a few ideas, but more on that later.

As I said above. I expect to need 3-6 lbs of nose weight to ensure stable flight across almost any motor that could lift this beast. I wanted to make at least 3 lbs removable, but if I could make it all that way why not.

I started off casting 1 lb lead pucks in a similar method to described above, but with a central tube for the all thread to pass through.
1 - Make a reference "X" on the foam board.
2 - Make depression to accommodate 1/4" LL at center.
3 - Glue 2" PVC pipe section to foam, and allow drying.
4 - Coat inside of mold with thin layer of silicone caulking, and allow drying. The depression in the center of the foam is filled with caulking and holds the LL in place.
5 - Cast lead (#9 shot, 15 oz) and epoxy (US Composites 635-Medium, 1 oz).
6 - level entire mold and allow to cure overnight.
7 - Remove lead puck and clean up edges and LL with box cutter.

I made four 1 lb weights and one 1/2 lb weight by this method. Only 3 1/2 lbs can fit inside the forward bulkhead. For this diameter anyway.



When thinking about casting the permanent weight it was clearly going to be a challenge getting it where it needed to be, and evenly dispersed. I couldn't just pour into the tip...that space is largely taken by the removable weight. I came up with a plan to use just a little of my recovery space, which I now know is in excess for the main chute I ordered. I wanted to make a weight that would sit between the removable forward bulkhead and the ring it screws into. It would need to be big enough for the 2" weight pucks to go through, and fit inside the 3.9" ID tube...so I took some scrap tube and 2" PVC and made a donut mold marked out with the 6 screw locations, so I could put tubes in place for those. I used much the same process, with the major difference being the need for 6 holes in the end product for the retention screws (I used straws this time). I ensured the holes were aligned properly by test fitting the bulkhead once the weight was poured. The end result weighs a little under 2.5 lbs, fits perfectly, and only took up 1 1/2" of my recover bay.



That 1 1/2" extra allows me to fit another 1 lb weight, so my total adjustable weight is just shy of 8 lbs...more than enough! Best part being I can tune the balance for any motor.



I gotta say, I'm pretty pleased with myself on this one.

All the recovery supplies arrive in the next week (including a 35' OneBadHawk Kevlar Sleeved Nylon harness for the drogue bay), so I'm down to ground testing and finishing. For finishing, I have been stock piling "Afrika Mustard" paint by stopping by the Hobby Lobby daily, and using the 40% off coupon. I have 3 cans, but my Hobby Lobby ran out, so I'll have to wait for a restock...figure I need about 5. Also, Mark has me some vinyl in the mail. I went with his "V2 Plain", but didn't really want the V2-dots and crosses, so he made up some extra panel markings for me. I'm going to do the vinyl like the Estes kit decals except I'm going to use the extra panels on the opposite side as well...not scale, but I like it. The NC and body tube have been wet sanded also, and after ground testing will get their coat of Heirloom White. That will prbably be a few weeks as we're busy for the next two...including a trip to MD (tiring, but at least I get proper crab cakes there). I will probably spend the next few days cleaning the mess I've made making these weights, and doing some other "honey-do" things. When I can't find a given tool in under 10 sec it is time to clean.

I've also played around with the ejection charge calculation formulas on Vern Knowles website. Because both of my bays are comprised of different ID tubes his formula were a couple steps oversimplified for me, so I had to build a few terms back in. It ends up quite straightforward; for a 300 lb ejection force on a 7.5" cross sectional area:

N = 0.003531(V)

Where N = bp in grams and V = volume in in^3

That weight system looks to have worked out very nice!

Great job on the weight system. That will provide a lot of flexibility for flying.

dixontj93060 said:

That weight system looks to have worked out very nice!

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farsidius said:

Great job on the weight system. That will provide a lot of flexibility for flying.

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Thanks gents. I'm actually surprised it worked out this well. There is still one remaining potential pitfall I though of last night. The antenna tip from the tracker will be awfully close to that donut block, so we'll see if tracking is affected. I can't imagine seeing a rocket this big going relatively slowly to a max of around 10K will be impossible though. It is more tracking distance on the ground that I worry about.

I'm looking for advice from the deployment bag experienced folks. As I prepare for ground testing I need to workout the recovery details. Drogue is easy; a 36" Fruity Chutes Compact Spherical Chute attached 7' down (from the body side) a 35' long 3/4" diameter tubular nylon shock cord. This should get the fin can well away, and hopefully lessen the shock at the end of the cord as I will have a very heavy nose cone shearpin-ed in place. I'll probably do some masking tape loops on the cord to provide some extra shock absorption as it extends (anybody got a preferred method for this?).

The main side setup is what I'm still trying to decide on. I can see 2 fundamentally different ways of attachment. Note that all cords on this side will be 7/16" tubular kevlar as I am not worried about shock as much, and I have a bunch of it. The main is a 96" Fruity Chute Iris Compact in a Fruity Chutes Deployment bag pulled off by a 24" Fruity Chutes Compact Spherical Chute. I'll probably deploy this around 1000' to be extra safe.

Option A "Traditional": The deployment bag will be placed about 2/3 of the way down a single cord toward the NC. Cord probably in 30' length range.

Option B "Y-Harness": A Y-Harness is attached to the body with the chute and NC each attaching to different arms of the Y-harness. This gets the deployment bag further from the NC, and minimizes the chance it will swing back to interfere with the main at any point. The only problem I see here is that the NC shock cord will have to be pulled tight over the lip of the body tube on decent under main. That would not be a bog deal if the NC weren't going to weight about 9 lbs. I am afraid of body tube damage more than anything. This method also turns the NC and fincan into pendulums for a while, and if things bounce around much I fear a collision.

In either method the weight of the NC will surely pull the cord tight, so I'm not worried about getting the deployment bag out. In theory I like getting the parachute as far from the NC as possible on release. I think my fear of damage from heavy parts being allowed to cross is pushing me toward Option A though...thoughts?



Obviously, not to scale.

I used Option A for my L3 except my main was attached near the NC. Harness was a 7/16" kevlar setup from onebadhawk. 18" pilot with d-bag & 84" Iris Ultra.

Cl(VII) said:

I'm looking for advice from the deployment bag experienced folks. As I prepare for ground testing I need to workout the recovery details. Drogue is easy; a 36" Fruity Chutes Compact Spherical Chute attached 7' down (from the body side) a 35' long 3/4" diameter tubular nylon shock cord. This should get the fin can well away, and hopefully lessen the shock at the end of the cord as I will have a very heavy nose cone shearpin-ed in place. I'll probably do some masking tape loops on the cord to provide some extra shock absorption as it extends (anybody got a preferred method for this?).

The main side setup is what I'm still trying to decide on. I can see 2 fundamentally different ways of attachment. Note that all cords on this side will be 7/16" tubular kevlar as I am not worried about shock as much, and I have a bunch of it. The main is a 96" Fruity Chute Iris Compact in a Fruity Chutes Deployment bag pulled off by a 24" Fruity Chutes Compact Spherical Chute. I'll probably deploy this around 1000' to be extra safe.

Option A "Traditional": The deployment bag will be placed about 2/3 of the way down a single cord toward the NC. Cord probably in 30' length range.

Option B "Y-Harness": A Y-Harness is attached to the body with the chute and NC each attaching to different arms of the Y-harness. This gets the deployment bag further from the NC, and minimizes the chance it will swing back to interfere with the main at any point. The only problem I see here is that the NC shock cord will have to be pulled tight over the lip of the body tube on decent under main. That would not be a bog deal if the NC weren't going to weight about 9 lbs. I am afraid of body tube damage more than anything. This method also turns the NC and fincan into pendulums for a while, and if things bounce around much I fear a collision.

In either method the weight of the NC will surely pull the cord tight, so I'm not worried about getting the deployment bag out. In theory I like getting the parachute as far from the NC as possible on release. I think my fear of damage from heavy parts being allowed to cross is pushing me toward Option A though...thoughts?



Obviously, not to scale.

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With option b the nose cone won't be able to help pull the main assembly out right? Sure all you need is for the pilot to catch air but that would worry me.

I suppose the heavy nose cone means you can't use option c: have the nose cone on the pilot and come down independently of the main. Option c is what I've used and am planning to use on my current 15-20lb frenzy.

rocketsam2016 said:

With option b the nose cone won't be able to help pull the main assembly out right? Sure all you need is for the pilot to catch air but that would worry me.

I suppose the heavy nose cone means you can't use option c: have the nose cone on the pilot and come down independently of the main. Option c is what I've used and am planning to use on my current 15-20lb frenzy.

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The d-bag will actually reside in the nose cone, so the d-bag is coming out in either scenario as long as the shock cord reaches full extension. I really want to keep all the parts together, so you are correct, Option C "Free bagging" is not being considered.

Option D is what I like. I use a 3 loop main harness with the main chute attached to the third loop, nose cone is attached to end of harness normally,but the pilot chute and d-bag are attached to the nose cone as well (d bag pulls off like a normal free bag setup but NC is still tethered to rocket). I do make sure the 3rd loop is far enough from the nose cone that the shroud lines and chute are fully extended and clear of the d-bag, I have not had any issues with this setup yet in 15-ish flights.

rharshberger said:

Option D is what I like. I use a 3 loop main harness with the main chute attached to the third loop, nose cone is attached to end of harness normally,but the pilot chute and d-bag are attached to the nose cone as well (d bag pulls off like a normal free bag setup but NC is still tethered to rocket). I do make sure the 3rd loop is far enough from the nose cone that the shroud lines and chute are fully extended and clear of the d-bag, I have not had any issues with this setup yet in 15-ish flights.

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I think I understand. I do my normal parachute burritos in a similar manner. The way you have described it doesn't that result in really fast deployment of the main?

Thanks for the advice guys, keep it coming.