"Rocketry" accident

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bobkrech said:
High performance RC racing fuels use ~50% nitro, ~30% methanol and ~20% lubricating oil.
Click to expand...
Ah, then I wonder if not only did the "while playing with A bottle OF rocket fuel" misinterpretation occur, changing it to "while playing with bottle rocket fuel," but if somewhere along the line "RC fuel" was misinterpreted as "rocket fuel." I can easily imagine, "RC fuel, what kind of fuel is that? They must mean rocket fuel. After all, look at how apparently explosively flammable it was."

It would be nice if more journalism majors were STEM proficient beyond just the operation of their iPhones.
 
Nessalco said:
https://www.wcax.com/story/30152490/vt-boy-badly-burned-in-accident
...the information came from a press release given out by the State Police...
Click to expand...

"Vermont State Police say the boy suffered severe burns from nitro-methane, a fuel used to launch model rockets."

Why would VSP want to admit that they had a meth lab in their jurisdiction? Implying that the kid was playing with his model rocket in the storage shed may in fact be totally intentional to distract from the fact that they have had an operational meth lab under their noses that they never knew about and don't want to publicize.
 
GlenP said:
"Vermont State Police say the boy suffered severe burns from nitro-methane, a fuel used to launch model rockets."

Why would VSP want to admit that they had a meth lab in their jurisdiction? Implying that the kid was playing with his model rocket in the storage shed may in fact be totally intentional to distract from the fact that they have had an operational meth lab under their noses that they never knew about and don't want to publicize.
Click to expand...

Hanlon's razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

In any case, the news media bashing is silly. They are going by what the police told them. The real core of this story is not how it happened but how the boy is doing. Until such time as the police release an update from a further investigation anyway, but that tends to be days/weeks.

I agree with an earlier post that trying to "correct" this with the media, or by posting comments on the story, will tend more to make us look like "Richards", or "Truthers". I mean, imagine the above quote about the police purposely lying to distract from the existence of a supposed meth lab, being posted in the media or comments on "our behalf". No thanks!

WE DO NOT EVEN KNOW what happened. And for all we know, somebody could indeed have been using nitro methane for their "home-made rocket model".

People have tried all sort of dumb stuff in "this hobby", which unfortunately includes the Basement Bombers more than 60 year later. JUST LOOK at this actual post on TRF TODAY, which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what this hobby is supposed to be, and yet people here are publicly encouraging this:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?129142-Bomb-or-Rocket

Holy Crap!

Or. the police may have conflated "nitrous" with "nitro", whatever. Or it could have been a meth lab after all but was some reason (not conspiracy) the police thought rockets instead. We do not know.

- George Gassaway
 
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Sad part to me is that a child was apparently severely burned and folks are obsessing about how an inaccurately worded press release will affect our leisure activities.

1) Nobody other than us is going to read the article and care enough to really work towards banning rocketry.
2) Even if there were some backlash, it would probably die out too fast to have a meaningful impact.
 
DizWolf said:
Careful using McVeigh as an example. Ammonium Nitrate was the other half of that bomb and it is certainly able to be used as rocket fuel.



I think at this point, any attempt to get the news to issue a correction or apology is just going to make us look like dicks.... The only reason we should be contacting them is to get them to stop referring to it as rocket fuel. There should be no requests for an apology or retraction in the face of the kid being burned so badly.... That's just kind of callus. But it should be pointed out so the reference does not continue.
Click to expand...

DizWolf,

I fully understand that ammonium nitrate is the other component that was used to construct the Oklahoma City explosive device, aka ANFO. It is also used in some composite rocket fuel formulas, blasting activities and is used extensively as an agricultural fertilizer. There is nothing anyone can do about the ignorance displayed by the media who routinely regurgitate the misinformation they receive from the officials.

As for this unfortunate child, I too pray for his recovery. He's going through unimaginable agony right now.
 
georgegassaway said:
We do not know.
Click to expand...

Very true, the real story is about the boy and his recovery.

My speculation of the VSP intent is just a knee-jerk reaction to the misinformation that may or may not ever lead to any infringement on our freedom to safely practice our hobby. The abandoned meth-lab-in-the-shed theory was mentioned on a GoFundMe page for the benefit of the victim (linked in the comments on the above story) possibly set up by someone without direct knowledge of the incident. Not my own creation, nor personally verified either, so I am just as guilty as spreading misinformation here by repeating it (totally stupidity on my part, that much I can verify). We do not know.

The statement: "Vermont State Police say the boy suffered severe burns from nitro-methane" would have been a sufficient explanation. The addition of "a fuel used to launch model rockets" attributed to the VSP is misleading, but the intent here (malice or stupidity) is not known. Were there any actual model rockets on the premises that led them to that conclusion? We do not know. Will they release a detailed explanation of this information later? Perhaps they do have an ongoing investigation and can not publicly release any information yet.

Will all the Vermont hobby and department stores pull the Estes model rocket kits and engines from their shelves as a knee-jerk reaction before the VSP completes their investigation and amends this story? We do not know.

Prayers are needed for the boy and his family. That much we know.
 
H_Rocket said:
Sad part to me is that a child was apparently severely burned and folks are obsessing about how an inaccurately worded press release will affect our leisure activities.

1) Nobody other than us is going to read the article and care enough to really work towards banning rocketry.
2) Even if there were some backlash, it would probably die out too fast to have a meaningful impact.
Click to expand...
I think the sympathy for the kid can be assumed and the harm of the reporting is as much in what it reveals as in what it might cause in the future as far as incorrect pre-conceived notions about our hobby. I've posted here before about the R/C "drone" media hysteria. This won't go that far, but every little bit hurts.
 
georgegassaway said:
Hanlon's razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

In any case, the news media bashing is silly. They are going by what the police told them. The real core of this story is not how it happened but how the boy is doing. Until such time as the police release an update from a further investigation anyway, but that tends to be days/weeks.

I agree in NOT bashing the media, but we MUST Demand accurate NEWS reporting! The media is a corrupt entity with their own (IMHO elitist) Agenda. The media has misrepresented facts (either by mistake or on purpose) time and time again from sports to this story and more. Again in IMHO the Fourth estate has become a Fifth Column.

I agree with an earlier post that trying to "correct" this with the media, or by posting comments on the story, will tend more to make us look like "Richards", or "Truthers". I mean, imagine the above quote about the police purposely lying to distract from the existence of a supposed meth lab, being posted in the media or comments on "our behalf". No thanks!

I would NOT try to "CORRECT" the media. However what is wrong with saying "this does NOT sound right. Please be responsible journalists, investigate this event and present the public with more facts."

WE DO NOT EVEN KNOW what happened. And for all we know, somebody could indeed have been using nitro methane for their "home-made rocket model".

"WE DO NOT EVEN KNOW what happened" EXACTLY, maybe I'm just an old fashioned old man, but isn't the news/media SUPPOSED to tell us what happened?

People have tried all sort of dumb stuff in "this hobby", which unfortunately includes the Basement Bombers more than 60 year later. JUST LOOK at this actual post on TRF TODAY, which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what this hobby is supposed to be, and yet people here are publicly encouraging this:

This is why we MUST call for the media for more info and FACTS so our hobby is NOT assigned blame incorrectly?

All that I stated above is NOT meant to offend George or any fellow TRF members. I am just stating my opinion just like everyone else. I know that communicating in this medium, that people might feel that what I am saying is an attack/mean spirited/etc., it is NOT. Like the late great Yogi Berra once said "We ain't arguing, we just agree differently" :wink:
Click to expand...
 
U]"WE DO NOT EVEN KNOW what happened"[/U]

EXACTLY, maybe I'm just an old fashioned old man, but isn't the news/media SUPPOSED to tell us what happened?
Click to expand...

DO YOU EXPECT THE NEWS MEDIA TO BE GOING THROUGH THE REMAINS OF THAT SHACK AND DEMANDING THE POLICE TO HAND TO THE MEDIA ALL EVIDENCE SO THAT THE MEDIA CAN DO AN INVESTIGATION TO FIND OUT IF IT WAS ROCKETRY RELATED OR NOT?

Get real.

You are clearly full-cocked to go after the news media no matter what the reason. They are going by WHAT THE POLICE TOLD THEM. The news media is NOT going to rewrite anything based on YOUR UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM that this had nothing to do with rockets, when YOU DO NOT KNOW what the "heck" happened. All you do know is here is another thread to do media-bashing regardless of the FACTS.

The source of the apparent confusion is with the police. It is for THEM to correct, or to verify after more time in investigating what happened. I am sure that in any case the police want to find out exactly what was stored there, why it was there, and if it was obtained and stored legally, or illegally (if illegally, the person responsible is going to jail once identified). But that's not going to happen immediately, and also that is why they have more important things to do, investigating THOSE aspects, than dealing with model rocketeers telling THEM how to do THEIR job.

I'm done with this. So rant on with the media-bashing, as I no longer give two .... bucks about anything else you have to say. I suspect I am not alone in that regard.

OK, calming down...... not going to let my last post on this end on such a note as the above.....

So, back to the most important thing.

I hope that the boy pulls thru and can have a good long life regardless of his injuries.

- George Gassaway
 
Where were the parents when this 10 year old child and his 13 year old brother were exploring the new neighborhood? Had these youngsters stumbled upon an active meth lab or even a marijuana patch the outcome could have been even worse. As for the the constant misinformation presented by "the media", this is often the result of parroting the erroneous information fed to them by officials who themselves are ignorant of that which they speak. The blind leading the blind.

As for the term "Basement Bombers" etc., this is in the same category as "Saturday Night Specials", "Assault Rifles" and "Right Wing Extremists". These terms are media fantasies, designed to inflame the emotions of gullible and having no factual basis.

Here is an updated news report. https://www.wptz.com/news/vt-boy-treated-in-boston-for-severe-chemical-burns/35587008
 
DO YOU EXPECT THE NEWS MEDIA TO BE GOING THROUGH THE REMAINS OF THAT SHACK AND DEMANDING THE POLICE TO HAND TO THE MEDIA ALL EVIDENCE SO THAT THE MEDIA CAN DO AN INVESTIGATION TO FIND OUT IF IT WAS ROCKETRY RELATED OR NOT?

Get real.

I am sorry if I did not express myself clearly. I did not mean for the media to be going through the shack. I meant it as "Investigating Reporting", you know, I am sure your local TV News has "Investigate Reporters". A good reporter could ask " bottle rocket fuel, as in fuel for a rocket, or was it a BOTTLE of ROCKET FUEL, which is used in combustion race engines? I don't see anything wrong with asking questions. I work in the engineering field, and I have said many times "it is better to ask a question and look dumb, than to NOT ask a question and be DUMB."Or maybe the media has the same ceiling for IQ as Dave Carver posted

You are clearly full-cocked to go after the news media no matter what the reason. They are going by WHAT THE POLICE TOLD THEM. The news media is NOT going to rewrite anything based on YOUR UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM that this had nothing to do with rockets, when YOU DO NOT KNOW what the "heck" happened. All you do know is here is another thread to do media-bashing regardless of the FACTS.

Ok, every thing you wrote above is your opinion. And you are entitled to it and have every right to express them. EXCEPT I NEVER CLAIMED that the event had nothing to do with rockets! I looked at my post and DO NOT SEE ANY CLAIM BY ME that this event had nothing to do with rockets. Please DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, thank you

The source of the apparent confusion is with the police. It is for THEM to correct, or to verify after more time in investigating what happened. I am sure that in any case the police want to find out exactly what was stored there, why it was there, and if it was obtained and stored legally, or illegally (if illegally, the person responsible is going to jail once identified). But that's not going to happen immediately, and also that is why they have more important things to do, investigating THOSE aspects, than dealing with model rocketeers telling THEM how to do THEIR job.

As I have posted before, in past threads, I worked in the Law Enforcement Field back in the 70's. I got out of it because of the BS that the politicians/officials put on the officers in the street. Besides in my view, we pay their salaries, so why NOT point out the inconsistencies and or vagueness with their report.

I'm done with this. So rant on with the media-bashing, as I no longer give two .... bucks about anything else you have to say. I suspect I am not alone in that regard.

I am sorry you feel that way, I have nothing personally against you, even you putting words in my mouth. Like I stated in the original post, I know that communicating in this medium can cause people to misinterpret what one has said/typed. I can understand that I did not express myself well enough, and that was the reason you thought that I meant for reporters to be going through the shack themselves.

OK, calming down...... not going to let my last post on this end on such a note as the above.....

So, back to the most important thing.

I hope that the boy pulls thru and can have a good long life regardless of his injuries.

Amen, agreed 100%

Again George, I did not intend to offend you. I am just offering opinions that are somewhat different than yours. FRIENDS:handshake:


- George Gassaway[/QUOTE]
 
Obviously this is something we are passionate about, hopefully this little piece of misinformation will not overshadow the tragedy itself. I personally doubt there will be any negative consequences to those of us who responsibly practice the hobby in terms of any new regulations or restrictions as a reaction to the original story's reference to "model rockets."

However, if one mother sees the original story and makes the decision to not allow their child to buy that model rocket set they have been asking for, that would be another tragedy: to have lost a new prospective member to this hobby community. Imagine if the mothers of Goddard or Werner diverted their childhood interests away from rocketry due to some perceived hazard that was based on a misinterpretation of facts. I know this is a stretch, as their childhood years predate the hobby as we know it, but give me some leeway here to illustrate this point. This is why I think many of us are passionate about the misrepresentation of our hobby, not just for the sake of the hobby itself, but because of the interests and careers that are often inspired by it. The next generation is influenced by the perceptions cultivated by the media, and we would hope to not impose baseless limitations on what they might accomplish. Every kid should get a chance to experience the hobby as we all have, and it would be a shame if one kid lost that chance.
 
Discussions like this are constantly needed. Your distant voice disapproving the use of nitro methane in model rockets do not go unheard.
Google search- rocketry nitro methane, 2nd page brings up this discussion.
But the article does need investigative journalism to clarify how it happened, so others know what NOT to do. Sadly, most news is lazy copy paste.
UTube stupidity videos dont help either.

The updated article on the VT news site said it happened in the family's home.
The pic of the bandaged kid made my heart sink.
He looks like a 'Nam napalm burn victim.
 
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About 35-40 years ago there was a huge fire at an apartment complex on Walnut Hill Lane near Central Expressway in North Dallas, caused by kids shooting off "bottle rockets". One or more of these cheap imported fireworks landed on a wood shingle roof to begin the inferno, and subsequently the use of wood shingles was banned in Dallas County. Perhaps this is what is being referred to in this incident?

Kids get burned all the time by playing with matches. If the word "rocket" had not been inserted into this story no one would be discussing it here and we would never have heard about the plight of poor Dakota.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottle_rocket
 
Just saw tonights news, and thankfully the boy is now in stable condition.
Then, they brought up the "Abandoned Model Rocket Fuel" again.
 
I would hazard a guess that it was the pipe cement that started the fire. good to hear that he is doing better.
Rex
 
tmacklin said:
It was "just boys being boys"....without adult supervision.

https://www.wcax.com/story/30221001/vt-boy-burned-mom-at-his-bedside

Read the comments that follow the latest "story".
Click to expand...

Dakota was playing with his 13-year-old brother, Zach, when the accident happened. Police say it was just boys being boys. The two were exploring the property they recently moved to and tried to build a so-called potato gun to shoot apples into a field. That's when they found some abandoned model-rocket fuel in an old shed near the property. The boys had no idea how flammable it was when it exploded.
Click to expand...

Reported by [email protected]

Please email the "journalist" to let him know that we all wish Dakota a speedy recovery and hope that he may one day be able to enjoy the excitement and inspiration of the safe hobby of model rocketry, which he has never been exposed to.
 
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The police officers that told the reporter he was using the nitro for model rocketry very well could have been correct. Although its not a normal use for rocketry this child could have gotten a hold of some he or is family has for another hobby and thought why shouldn't this stuff work for making a rocket motor. Then built some sort of device he thought would work as a rocket motor, after that the story is correct its now used for model rocketry as far as they know. This is obviously all speculation and I have no idea what the real situation was.

In the new report they call it model jet fuel, which makes a lot more sense.
 
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From what I've gathered from all the news reports.....

The family had recently purchased the house. Two brothers were exploring, and came on an old shed, with all sorts of interesting stuff inside. One thing was a jar of nitromethane, of unknown age. They used that and other things they found in the shed (PVC pipe, etc) to make a potato gun. They rather overcharged the first shot, and one kid got badly burned.

Other than the initial report that it was 'rocket fuel' nothing ever came of it.

Kevin O
 
uh I see. classic reporting. I'm not a big fan of reporters ever since I was in Kandahar Afghanistan at a prison called Saraposa It got attacked while we were there and it turned into an all night event but before we even got back to base there was a report covering the whole story (which hadn't completed yet). Its just a race who can get the info out the fastest leaving little concern for accuracy.
 

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