Sneak Peak: Jolly Logic's Easy Dual Deployment

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It wasn't too long ago the Adept A1 (name was something like that) came out at a price below $50--a first for a dual-deploy, peak recording altimeter. He hit the supply-demand curve just right as he sold something like 10,000 units. Personally I thought John B. had the potential to be right there with Adept in releasing this product. Now, not so much. Maybe some further thought on supply-demand could be considered as a means to optimize total revenue(?).

BTW John, release the Altimeter Three "Extreme" and I'll pay $129 for that!
 
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It's a fantastic product. But the price is too high in my opinion. If it included all of the functionality of the ALT3 I could see it, but it doesn't from what I can gather.

I'll have to wait for the price to come down for sure. Here's to hoping it does. If it doesn't then I'll just wait for the next thing that is bound to be cheaper.

Wes
 
Count me among those a little surprised by the price. I didn't expect it to be cheap by any means, but it is 50-60% higher than I would have guessed. I don't think that'll stop me from buying one, but it rules out buying two or three (which probably would have done otherwise).
 
I was expecting it to fall in the price range somewhere between the Altimeter Two, and Three, since it a single function, non recording unit. I will likely still purchase one in the future, but, maybe wait for a sale, or used unit to become available.
 
Another basic business principal is the substitute offering. I perform basically the same function today with an RRC2+ and a cable cutter at a total price of $55. Yes, in this case some payload (or nose cone) space must be reserved, but $55 is pretty compelling.
 
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The price seems perfectly reasonable to me. This is only $30 more than the altimeter3 and has moving parts. Frankly I'm surprised it is this cheap.
 
dixontj93060 said:
Another basic business principal is the substitute offering. I perform basically the same function today with an RRC2+ and a cable cutter at a total price of $55. Yes, in this case some payload (or nose cone) space must be reserved, but $55 is pretty compelling.
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$55, +black powder, +e-match every launch, +av bay sled/setup..... And only some of those are transferable to other rockets.
 
CzTeacherMan said:
$55, +black powder, +e-match every launch, +av bay sled/setup..... And only some of those are transferable to other rockets.
Click to expand...

OK, e-matches go for <25 cents each, 0.1g of BP = 1/2 a penny and a 1"x2"X1/8" ply sled plus screws/nuts maybe $2. So recurring cost is <25 cents meaning I'd need over 300 launches to recoup my cost. I'd venture to say you'd loose the device before that.
 
The other thing is how much is your time worth? If you have a rocket that is amenable to use the device, it is likely easier to drop one in as opposed to converting it to DD even though that could be way cheaper. So you buys one instead of three.

You gotta remember, you start sending little rockets above 3k and you might have trouble finding them without a tracking solution. You send them above 5k and you WILL have trouble recovering them without
an Rf device of some kind. I've had six sight unseen flights where the data indicates the events are occurring nominally and when I walk up to the rocket, it's obvious that's the case. Without the tracker, I wouldn't have had
any idea where to look. Keep that in mind with your engine selection. You can likely get away with a little more altitude in a restricted launch area (size wise) but it would be better to consider it a device to shorten the recovery
walk.

If one is going to do DD from the get go. A $20.00 Qwark and scarfing some supplies from friends is very cost effective but if one is resolving totally to stay away from acquiring DD supplies, this device is the only thing out there.

Except there is a fellow who's been experimenting with a hot wire cutter release using a Qwark. A different strategy indeed. He posted here somewhere I recall. The maker of the Qwark altered the firmware to turn on the channel for 2 seconds.

Here's the thread: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?129976-Eggtimer-Quark-based-chute-tender

Kurt Savegnago
 
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As a guy who does a LOT of dual deploy...let me tell you, this product is well worth what he is asking. The turn around time in prep is next to nothing and one does not have to purchase ematches, black powder, make an avionics bay and have more shock cords etc. I have seen folks drop $150 on a night out at a game then dinner. Come on...

Once you try it....you will believe. Otherwise, go build your dual deploy avionics bays. While you spend 30min at your car preping, I will be loading my rocket on the pad and will be back for another flight before you are done :)

Dont get me wrong I love my dual deploy. But it is sure fun loading a 3" rocket with an H motor and doing Chute Release in one tenth the time! Or an Estes Nike Smoke on a G64 with no worries of drifting off the field. Or ANY Pro-Series II rockets for that matter.
 
I am good with 129.00. Considering you can turn that amount to smoke pretty easily with this hobby... Its not that big of a deal. Plus what it gives you is time back, and more launches per day, which is priceless.
 
As others said, more than expected. However, I am still getting one. Might not get a second one right away.

Have done some more work on my RC version of this and hope to test fly it next Saturday.
 
Well...to use a real world example I have a single deploy rocket I like to fly to around 2k. Let's say the wind is cranking along at a pokey 10 mph and the rocket goes exactly straight up:

2000' / 20 FPS (descent) = 100 sec (descent time)
100 sec x 10 mph (14.67 FPS - wind speed) = 1467'

So my rocket is going to land roughly a 1/4 mile away...How long is it going to take for me and my rather *ahem* un athletic self get out to pick it up? I figure that this device will easily cut that walk in half or better. Probably about 1/4 or so or about 370'. Yeah I need to work out and all but not over corn stubble.

Yeah, I'm buying one.
 
DAllen said:
Well...to use a real world example I have a single deploy rocket I like to fly to around 2k. Let's say the wind is cranking along at a pokey 10 mph and the rocket goes exactly straight up:

2000' / 20 FPS (descent) = 100 sec (descent time)
100 sec x 10 mph (14.67 FPS - wind speed) = 1467'

So my rocket is going to land roughly a 1/4 mile away...How long is it going to take for me and my rather *ahem* un athletic self get out to pick it up? I figure that this device will easily cut that walk in half or better. Probably about 1/4 or so or about 370'. Yeah I need to work out and all but not over corn stubble.

Yeah, I'm buying one.
Click to expand...

Near our field the corn was still not harvested as of our October launch, that field has eaten at least 4 rockets this year since July, hopefully I can get out there and look for whats left of the rockets in the next week or so. All were lost with single deployments above 2000' one of which was featured in the last issue (or two) of Sport Rocketry, a beautiful upscale of the the Big Bertha with a custom Cocobolo (iirc) nosecone signed by Vern Estes, a device like this would have saved all of them (caveat-as long as it worked correctly). Yes I will eventually buy one because the device could definitely save members of my LPR and MPR fleet.
 
DAllen said:
Well...to use a real world example I have a single deploy rocket I like to fly to around 2k. Let's say the wind is cranking along at a pokey 10 mph and the rocket goes exactly straight up:

2000' / 20 FPS (descent) = 100 sec (descent time)
100 sec x 10 mph (14.67 FPS - wind speed) = 1467'

So my rocket is going to land roughly a 1/4 mile away...How long is it going to take for me and my rather *ahem* un athletic self get out to pick it up? I figure that this device will easily cut that walk in half or better. Probably about 1/4 or so or about 370'. Yeah I need to work out and all but not over corn stubble.

Yeah, I'm buying one.
Click to expand...

Dave, that is some interesting reasoning... Let's see... Hmmm... If my goal is to get the minimum amount of exercise... Hey, I'm doing it! Sitting on the couch finishing a beer and watching football! And I even saved the $129 :)
 
Just you keep preping....while your doing that, we will keep launching!! :)
Like I said....once you try it....you will believe!
 
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dixontj93060 said:
Dave, that is some interesting reasoning... Let's see... Hmmm... If my goal is to get the minimum amount of exercise... Hey, I'm doing it! Sitting on the couch finishing a beer and watching football! And I even saved the $129 :)
Click to expand...

I *knew* as soon as I posted that someone was going to take it that direction...lol
 
This is a serious question to those of you who are already well versed in dual deploy via black powder charges. What is the cost in time and equipment/safe storage space to get black powder legally and store it (if you're not already a black powder firearms person)?

I see this device as $129 alternative to all of that, as well as being usable in almost any large enough diameter model (1.6 inches and up) without having to configure it for dual deploy during the build or later. But my perception may be colored by inexperience with conventional (traditional?) dual deploy methods. (I say "almost any" because a Baby Bertha's just too short.... :)
 
Saw one of these demonstrated at the Tripoli Mid Ohio launch on Saturday and I must say I was impressed. Andrew Kleinhenz (AKVP here on TRF) flew multiple flights with it and loaned it out to at least one flyer. Fantastic little device!
 
"
John Beans said:
We don't take pre-orders at Jolly Logic, but if you have a reseller you like, ask them if they'll take pre-orders. You can see our resellers here. "

Aerospace Speciality Products should also be on the list of resellers...

Andy/ASP
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I'm going to buy one to use with small rockets where traditional pyro dual deploy is difficult but I enjoy building and flying traditional dual deploy rockets. Having a chute deployed by a rubber band is about as much fun as a rocket propelled by a rubber band.
 
I'm going to buy one because it is kind of nifty and by doing so small shops like Jolly Logic are encouraged to keep coming up with interesting ideas. The cost for my hobby stuff is a non-issue. If I can't afford it, I won't buy it.
 
This is a one-of-a-kind product with considerable development expense. Price may seem a bit high but the value is there.

Setting the price on a new product is always an interesting exercise, more so when the product is unique like this one. You have to make some guesses about price elasticity and total addressable market size. It is often safer to start high and then drop later if necessary. I'd wager that at some point in the future either this product or a follow-up will come down in price, but probably not anywhere near the $50 some people might be hoping for.

I'll certainly be considering one for use in my BT60-based LPR models, which aren't candidates for DD anyway. It would give me a lot more confidence to throw bigger engines in them and still expect to get them back.
 
I've added flight notes from Andrew Kleinhenz's experiences at Tripoli Mid-Ohio to our flight test post here. Especially if you're a fan of (or are interested in using) fire blankets, it's a good stuff. Thanks, Andrew.

He's on the forum (see above) and like BEC and our other testers I'm sure he'd be happy to share his first-hand experiences with you.

I invented this product because I just couldn't face the work and effort and explosive nature of traditional dual deployment, but my rockets were getting bigger and bigger and harder and harder to recover.

As a product designer, I'm constantly fascinated by the difference between what we expect something to be like, and its reality. If I've done my job well, you should be amazed at the difference in convenience between Chute Release and traditional dual deployment. The mere fact that Andrew "lent dual deploy" to someone at the launch speaks to that, right?

To me as a rocketeer, it doubles my fun because it adds a whole second mission stage to the flight that's exciting. The flight is only halfway done when ejection occurs.
 
For my rockets I don't see this as a replacement for using an altimeter for initial deployment..it just gets rid of the complexity of doing dual deploy with two recovery devices and a design that requires a payload section. I still don't trust forward closures and motor delays and you can still have early and late/no ejection that can/will damage your rocket whether or not you have a parachute opening.

Also, most of my rockets are scale and have very heavy top ends, I like to recover in two pieces get them as far apart as possible to avoid them smashing into each other and I can use two smaller cheaper chutes instead of one big one, they aren't really amenable to a normal dual deploy design with compartment in the middle of each section. As was said before the prep time is minimal and I could use this to reef chutes on both halves to reduce wind drift.

I like this mechanism a lot better than traditional dual deploy or shear type devices(cable cutter), and the fact it is drop in after the fact installation.

Frank





BEC said:
This is a serious question to those of you who are already well versed in dual deploy via black powder charges. What is the cost in time and equipment/safe storage space to get black powder legally and store it (if you're not already a black powder firearms person)?

I see this device as $129 alternative to all of that, as well as being usable in almost any large enough diameter model (1.6 inches and up) without having to configure it for dual deploy during the build or later. But my perception may be colored by inexperience with conventional (traditional?) dual deploy methods. (I say "almost any" because a Baby Bertha's just too short.... :)
Click to expand...
 
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