Suggestions for first HPR

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

BDB

Absent Minded Professor
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
Messages
2,553
Reaction score
922
I'm a BAR who has "hung around" rocketry for the past couple decades, but now I'm getting serious about pushing into HPR. I want to build my first HPR kit over the next couple months and purchase my first reloadable engine system. I know that there will be more opinions than members on this forum, but I'm open to suggestions.

I want to build something that is versatile because I'm interested in learning new things like DD, GPS tracking, fiberglass and CF materials, and even custom-built engines and/or hybrid motors. (I'm sure I won't be able to get all of that in one kit.) The last one will probably take a little while, but I'm a PhD chemist with my own research lab, so I have access to more materials and safety equipment than the average guy.

Two examples of the kits that I'm looking into thus far are the Madcow Torrent because it looks like DD should be easy and the HyperLOC 300 because I could fly almost anything in the 54 mm engine mount (with the necessary adaptors, of course).

Do you guys have any suggestions about these or other L1 certification-type kits? And do you have any suggestions about which reloadable engine system to buy (I'm leaning towards a Loki 29 or 38 mm system thus far, but I have no idea about which length to start with). Budget is always an issue, but I'm wiling to invest ~$200 for the kit and the engine over the next couple months.
 
Check with the vendors and you can find cert specials like buy a reload and get the case free.

Of course with the new Aerotech single use motors there's no need to buy commercial hardware to certify.
 
I'll recommend Loki 38 for a few reasons.
1) I'm a Loki Fanboy
2) no hazmat on many of their 38mm loads, including things like the I405
3) It will be easier to use them for EX motors later (just need to swap out for wider nozzles typically)

For kits, You really can't go wrong. If you want to stick to typical cardboard and and wood, both LOC and Madcow make great kits. 4" will be easier to stuff electronics into av-bays, but 2.6 and 3" aren't really all that hard.

Fiberglass, Madcow, Rocketry warehouse and wildman all have great kits, and once again, it's really personal preference. Be aware RW and wildman don't really come with what are known as "instructions", but threads here are not hard to find that will show anything you need to know.

Another option, that I'm building my first kit of now, is MAC performance. https://shop.macperformancerocketry.com/collections/ Some kinda voodoo tubing. (canvas phenolic)
light weight and strong.

Whatever you choose, it'll surely be a good time. Keep things like field and waiver size in mind. Some of these kits will get up there quick. Now is also a good time to start looking into tracking options...as getting these back is always more fun.

I've got about 10 rockets I look at and say "this could be my only rocket and I'd be happy" So I've come to the conclusion that all rockets are fun.
 
Last edited:
Consider buying a simpler DD kit initially that serves simultaneously for both your L1 & L2 certification flights. Check Binder, PML, and Giant Leap Rocketry(GLR) for kits of interest. I was so advised and got the GLR escape velocity which is DD and I used it for both certifications. You can fly single deployment for the L1 & later DD for the L2 with the same rocket. On any of the recommended companies, later you can easily get larger AV bays and/or use the nose cone space for eventual tracker or GPS units. As the Crazy Cajun recommends, when you prepare your L1 flight-the vendor should be able to provide the motor casing free (with the purchase of the reload). Have fun!

Fred
ROSCO member,
L2, TRA: 15606
 
Anything in the Wildman Sport catalogue is a great choice for fiberglass, DD, etc. Just call Tim (Jackie usually answers and she's just as helpful), and they'll set you up with everything. I'd recommend the Wildman Sport with a DD upgrade. Just be sure to get all the parts you'll need (shock cord, parachute, etc). Or, go with his new interceptor Sport so you have the option of going with 38mm motors as well. If you ask, you might be able to get the 38 mount with the Wildman fins... CTI has great cert specials where you buy the reload and get the case for free.
 
Me, I've gone and scratch built my own intro to HPR rocket (OFFL (Puns and Jokes)). I've got several 29mm kits and scratch built designs that can act as a back up to this. I'm also now working on a pair of 54mm kits from Binder Design that might fit the bill... A Raptor and a Velociraptor.
 
Last edited:
I recommend any one of the Wildman kits. Quality is awesome. I have the Wildman Jr.
 
+10 for Loki.

But take advantage of the CTI cert specials when you go to certify. It's nice to have options at different launches that have different dealers.

For kits My first choice to recommend would be binder design his kits are complete has everything you need to fly and the instructions and customer support are great. Loc precision kits are a good choice as well.
 
I agree so many kits u will like them all - Wildman , GLR, LOC, Madcow, Binder Design, PML, hawk Mountain, painkillers, MAC Performance - and more. 3" or larger much easier to pack everything into.

Madcow cardboard is thinner than LOC and can zipper easier - I like Madcow and have a few kits but keep that in mind when building. And if you end up mixing parts between kits

LOC stronger tubing and comes with everything but you will likely want to upgrade to a ONEBADHAWK harness and different chute out of the box.

If you go FG - very nice but sanding, cutting - fibers get everywhere

Yes many kits come with less desirable instructions if any but you read enough build threads you will get the idea.

I'm Very interested in MAC and will look towards a Binder and Wildman kit soon.

CTI reloads are extremely easy but I also am looking toward Loki - I like the tracking smoke grain with apogee above 3500'.

Missleworks very good Altimeters and coming out with turn key GPS soon. If your getting into a GPS tracker I would start out of the box thinking of an interchangeable sled in each of your nose cones and plan builds and sizes around that. Keep in mind you can still land your rocket in a tree or on a building so your tracker can still be lost.

Perfect flight Strattologger also a very simple fly out of the box Altimeter for primary or backup.

I personally would not scratch build my first rocket until you have built a few but that's just my 2 cents

Good luck, we look forward to your build threads!
 
Last edited:
Keep in mind that not only do you need the kit and motor, but also the avionics, the harnesses, the main and drogue chutes, the paint and/or decals, launch lugs, retainer, etc. A $100 FG rocket can easily end up costing $300 or more. If you are limited to $200, look for a kit that comes with everything. Giant Leap kits usually have all of the above in one package, minus the electronics. Saves shipping, and you know what you are paying right away.

If you go piecemeal, here is a checklist that I use:

  1. The rocket
  2. AV sled
  3. Switchband
  4. Retainer
  5. Hardware (allthread, nuts, eyebolts, washers, swivels, quick-links)
  6. Rail buttons/guides
  7. Main parachute
  8. Drogue parachute (optional)
  9. Harnesses
  10. Electronics (if not reusing)
  11. Adhesives
  12. Tools and build supplies
  13. Charge wells
  14. AV wiring
  15. Battery/holder (optional)
  16. Extra CR (optional)
  17. Shear pins (optional)
  18. Plactic rivets (optional)
  19. Clustering accessories (optional)
  20. Chute/harness protection (optional)
  21. D-bag, pilot chute, etc. (optional)
  22. Paint (optional)
  23. Decals (optional)
  24. Motor casing
  25. Closure
  26. Reload
  27. Black powder or CO2 charges
 
Watch the sales, too. I recently took advantage of MadCow's sale and ended up with a nice DX3 Payloader w/removable av bay for $100.
 
Deleted my long winded reply, as much of it was "what they said". I will add that in addition to CTI's certification specials (which I took advantage of, even though I generally fly AT), keep your eye on the yard sale section for gently used motors.


Here's a specific idea - LOC Ultimate. 4" kit, 7 x 29mm motor mounts. You could certify with a single H or I in the central mount on motor deploy, then add an AV bay for DD, and even add more electronics to do airstarts.

https://www.countylinehobbies.com/loculrokit.html for the kit - $112 including shipping

https://shop.locprecision.com/product.sc?productId=48&categoryId=8 for the AV bay

https://shop.locprecision.com/product.sc?productId=55&categoryId=39 for the AV bay with a 15" tube.


29mm motors are relatively inexpensive. My plan for motor retention involves 1/4-20 threaded rod x 3, with washers and nuts to hold everything in place.



I ordered one of these during Mr. Bob's birthday sale, and expect it to be waiting for me when I get home tonight.:wink: I think that it can actually be flown on any number of motors between 1 and 7. That will probably be a goal for next year...
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all of the suggestions. Please keep them coming. It seems that I have a lot of decisions to make and there are endless possibilities. I like the idea of scratch building--I have done plenty of that in the low power domain, but I think I want a solid HPR kit, especially if I'll be working with new materials (e.g. fiberglass). The Wildchild/CTI special looks good and it is affordable, but now you guys have tempted me with a the GLR Talon or Velociraptor. Dang it, there goes the budget....
 
29mm motors are relatively inexpensive. My plan for motor retention involves 1/4-20 threaded rod x 3, with washers and nuts to hold everything in place.

the estes retainers are cheap, $7 a pair, I've had good luck with them even on I200W's
 
Yeah, but I don't think I can squeeze 7 of them in there. Looks like it is going to be tight just getting the tubes in.

:y: sorry man i should read closer lol..


If you're looking to scratch build, I recommend LOC tubes, or Blue tube from always ready rocketry. I did my L1 and L2 scratch rockets out of blue tube. The stuff has it's limits, but it's cheap and strong. and I've beaten the HELL out of my L1 bird....
 
Thanks for all of the suggestions. Please keep them coming. It seems that I have a lot of decisions to make and there are endless possibilities. I like the idea of scratch building--I have done plenty of that in the low power domain, but I think I want a solid HPR kit, especially if I'll be working with new materials (e.g. fiberglass). The Wildchild/CTI special looks good and it is affordable, but now you guys have tempted me with a the GLR Talon or Velociraptor. Dang it, there goes the budget....

You are in a unique position because you have not commited to a rocket yet .

Most build their rocket and then pick a motor for it , perhaps you can do the reverse - pick a motor, case, & vendor combo - then identify the best rocket to get the flight you want .

I wanted to put up a FG rocket and break a mile , so I went with a CTI K740 cStar and a 4" fiberglass Wildman Vindicator .. also used it for my first dual deploy. It was big ..and it has survived some mishaps over the last couple of years (pilot error) but she is still raring to go.

Exactimator wanted something to fly an AeroTech L1000 White Lightning and picked a Rocketry Warehouse X-Celerator ...also a 4 inch fiberglass rocket with some split fins like the Vindicator to show some style. He also has already flown it Dual Deploy (and a GPS !) on a K535W and at he right event will pop it on the L motor .

We have both since purchased some 3 inch fiberglass kits with 54mm motor mounts also ..more performance less weight and drag - but built and flown with the same techniques of the 4 inch kits...so those first birds were well worth it . Some things like harness' nomex and retainer caps drogue chutes can be shared between them ..unlike mid power you put together a few different size chutes and harness together and use them as needed attached to attached to a kevlar tether glued into each rocket.

Post some pics when you decide and pull the trigger !

Kenny
 
4" Madcow Super DX3, the paper and wood one. Got my L1 on it stock, and modified it for DD for my L2. Simple rocket, great flyer and still one of my favorites. In hindsight, only thing I would do differently would be to glass the tubes to make it a bit more durable.
 
Thank you for taking the time to write all of your suggestions. I knew there would be a wealth of knowledge here. Without this thread, I wouldn't have even considered MAC, Binder or GLR (plus a 7 engine cluster LOC Ultimate--how cool is that!). There are so many great choices!

Kenny is right, I want to focus on selecting an engine system first and then find a versatile and durable rocket to match. So, just for the sake of argument, lets say I go with a Loki 38 mm system. Do you guys have any more advice about what lengths of engines I absolutely need to get or which ones I should avoid? (Thanks, in advance.)
 
Starting out you would want the 38/240 and 38/480 those are the level one cases ( H & I motors )
 
The 120 case has two motors currently, the G80 white and the G69 spitfire. The G80 is my favorite, and will reasonably lift a 3 pound rocket. It does well in my LOC Vulcanite. Note these two reloads are sold in two packs.

The 240 case would be my first. H90 red, H144 white, H160 Blue, H100 spitfire. 4 really nice loads.

The 480 is another awesome case. I210 red, I405 White, and I316 spitfire. All the loads listed so far are non hazmat for shipping. The 480 I430 blue and and I110 white have larger fuel grains and must be shipped hazmat.

Getting into high power, the 240 and 480 would make a great set. Note you must get appropriately sized nozzles for each case. You can share a bulkhead, but I find it easier with Loki to just purchase entire motors. When you go for level two, the 740 and 1200 cases have some impressive loads.

Getting a decent pair of snap ring pliers will make life much much better.

Here's an assembly video of a 38/480 motor-

[youtube]xTsFquQWK-c[/youtube]
 
Last edited:
If you go with the Loki 38mm, you won't be able to fly enough of the I405. Those are awesome motors. It absolutely teleports a 3.5 lb 3" rocket I have (LOC Athena 3 with a 38mm MMT), and unlike most teleport flights, leaves a great smoke trail.

That leads me into my suggestion - Pretty much anything LOC or Binder Design. I figure keep it simple with wood and paper for your first high power. These will easily handle H-K, depending on the particular rocket.

Scott has another motor in the works for the 38/120 case - a red G66 (per some paperwork I saw on the website, and a brief conversation with him).
 
Scott has another motor in the works for the 38/120 case - a red G66 (per some paperwork I saw on the website, and a brief conversation with him).


I've seen test video on his youtube of cocktail and blue as well. no idea when they're slated to goto testing.

If you've got tracking... A Vulcanite or Nuke pro maxx are great light cardboard rockets that are easily modified to dual deploy and will ROCK on H144's and I405s my Vulc on a G80-

14946300542_babbac3ab4_c.jpg
 
So, just for the sake of argument, lets say I go with a Loki 38 mm system. Do you guys have any more advice about what lengths of engines I absolutely need to get or which ones I should avoid? (Thanks, in advance.)

There is no such thing as a Loki case to avoid, especially in 38mm. They are all worth the money. The loads are beyond awesome if you have a thing for performance. While CTI and AT make great motors, nothing commercially available performs like a Loki. The must have are the 240 and 480 cases. The 240 gives you the best $25 motors you'll ever fire and the 480 gives you the almost scary I405.

If you go with the Loki 38mm, you won't be able to fly enough of the I405. Those are awesome motors. It absolutely teleports a 3.5 lb 3" rocket I have (LOC Athena 3 with a 38mm MMT), and unlike most teleport flights, leaves a great smoke trail.

Not just the 3" kits, the I405 is down right outrageous in my 3.5lb 5.5" Minnie Magg! On that note, once I get settled and can make it out to the launches in the Metroplex or wherever, we'll have to set up a Loki powered drag race.
 
Not just the 3" kits, the I405 is down right outrageous in my 3.5lb 5.5" Minnie Magg! On that note, once I get settled and can make it out to the launches in the Metroplex or wherever, we'll have to set up a Loki powered drag race.

You're on. Assuming we ever get out of the burn ban when the landowner doesn't have a crop in the field.

Back to the thread -

Here's a pick of the Athena on the I405. This is a 5' long rocket, with ~4' of flame.

00029_Capture_1.jpg
 
I heard someone say once that the I405 makes most J motors cry. Well maybe not the Loki J1000 :)


TA
 
+1 on any Binder or Loc kit, a easy inexpensive way to go. You might want to look into a Bomb Pop kit from Chris Rocket supply a good place to get both Loki motors and rocket kits. For dual deploy look into some single separation options.

As for the motors you really cant go wrong with any brand, sure some are more impressive than others but you need to buy what works best for you. All that said if you are on the fence about Loki I can tell you you will not be disappointed I am a big fan of the white motors in particular. While I am a big fan of the I 405 I have had the immense pleasure of a J-1000 and let me tell you I think I have a new favorite.


[video=youtube;Xwnk4fQk6Lo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwnk4fQk6Lo[/video]

Alex the guy filming the rocket is excellent camera man, normally he keeps up with every flight, you can see this one got away from him.

As you may have already guessed from my signature what my vote is.


TA
 
=


Alex the guy filming the rocket is excellent camera man, normally he keeps up with every flight, you can see this one got away from him.

keep up? ha! here's my best photo of a J1000: :/

20822935960_83ffdd1f64.jpg
 
Back
Top