Rocketry Mailing List?

How much of an interest is there in a mailinglist type forum for rocketry like the one hosted by Tripoli. They seem very upset it is going away.

I am not sure if it is just a want to avoid forums or what.

I've always relied on the calendars posted. I'm sure a lot of people do also. Not all of us participate in every event. Calendars allow us to pick and choose.

Hmmm.

I'm looking at the flip side. A special interest group (not related to TRA) that has been using a mailing list (on Yahoogroups) for many years. Several think that a web forum would be a much better option now (overdue, actually).

- George Gassaway

George, I actually agree. I am just not sure why so many are resistant to change.

Chuck, I agree personally. I think it is the ease of the list just showing up in the email. No need to login to a forum, the messages are just there and are very easy to deal with.

cwbullet said:

George, I actually agree. I am just not sure why so many are resistant to change.

Click to expand...

Because it is human nature to be resistant to change. Remember when this site used to look like this: https://web.archive.org/web/20110413112230/https://www.rocketryforum.com/ People complained about that change for quite some time.

There are many, many more examples of people wishing that things would never change and in some cases revert back to a "simpler and better time".

Not that my opinion carries any weight whatsoever, but a mailing list forum is better served by a forum like this one. I agree with George on the mailing list of which he speaks - it would be welcome if that was turned into something web-based rather than email based.

Most of us get more than enough emails as it is.
More than a couple of list servs I belong to have found spam creeps in, and eventually they close down.
These days it seems forums are being viewed by many as "old technology", wanting to get their information from Facebook pages, where they can get information from all their groups in one place. Of course you need to joined FB to access that...

L

markkoelsch said:

Chuck, I agree personally. I think it is the ease of the list just showing up in the email. No need to login to a forum, the messages are just there and are very easy to deal with.

Click to expand...

I think the biggest issue for many is that on a mail list they can quickly fire off a response via a reply email, whereas in a forum they have to be more intentional, sign in, then reply. On one hand it does slightly impede the process of open communication. However, online forums also solve another long term complaint of not having message archives. Message thread history is retained and available for newer readers on forums.

I don't think one is a better tool than the other. They are just different tools for different purposes. Mail lists tend to support insular communities, whereas forums support knowledge transfer over time.

Good question Chuck.

Obviously there are pros and cons for each one or there wouldn't be said resistance. As far as the TRA list there have been differing opinions for a long time. I prefer the forums. The following is just my opinion. YMMV.

I find the lists useful in that I always check my email and all the messages from the lists are there. That is about the only convenience for me. What is not convenient is that to follow all the messages on a particular subject you must open each one individually and in the instance of one of the latest series of messages on one of my lists the subject is titled "No Subject" so you can't even sort them. You must read each one just in case there is something important there. Also, on a forum you can go back later and retrieve any information there. When an email is gone it's just gone.

The next problem for me is that whatever the subject is it only remains such for about three replies and then it goes off into neverland but no one changes the subject line. There are a lot of wisecracks and funny stuff in a lot of them but on a busy day I don't want to spend my time opening messages that say, "Me too." , "Congressman X is an idiot" , etc.

On a forum it's easy to start a new thread and I can browse an entire thread with just one click (if it is only one page long) in just a few seconds to see where it is headed and then decide if it is something I am interested in.

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that those most resistant to the change are those who do not frequent forums and have been on the email lists for quite a while. I'll be candid here. I'm not sure that this cell phone thing is going to work. I always knew where my phone was when it was attached to the wall.

Where have all the blacksmith shops gone? Or, more recently, where are all the phone booths? Things change.

Of course, most people on a forum are going to say forums are great and cant understand why anyone would want an email list! While all the people on the other side of the fence are on their email lists and cant understand why anyone would want to have to log into and click all over a forum just to read messages.

There are quite a few rocketry lists out there, aRocket, local lists (we have 2 or 3 in the pacific northwest), chemroc (close to zero activity these days), and many others. I still prefer email lists over forums, but do both...

I'm going to suggest something which may be unpopular. Ready? Here goes:

We need a co-op list where the various rocketry vendors can share their customer lists. We are a tiny hobby and need efficient ways for our vendors to engage with us. We also need to develop relationships with other hobbyists (R/C, model aircraft, kite fighters, scale modelers, science fiction buffs, etc.) to try to expand our footprint, possibly by sharing their customer lists. Being as small as we are, we lack the clout to resist efforts to regulate us out of existence.

OK sure, we have the NAR and Tripoli but their reach is limited (membership is kinda pricey too) which make their usefulness to our vendors limited.

This is done in a lot of other industries that depend on direct marketing; some lists are shared on a co-op basis while others are compiled and sold for profit.

Yes this means we all get more junk emails, but we can promote the hobby better which benefits us in the long run.

OK. Let the angry replies commence....

There are actually legal ramifications to that for any vendors sharing their list. Personal information cannot be shared unless the people giving that information have 'opted in' to that sharing. Interesting idea, but implementation would be problematic.

In the case of the special interest group mailing list I mentioned, it is not used nearly as much as it used to be. Some of the people still fly, but dropped off the list. A big reason being that at one time it was totally unmoderated, and by the time moderation got restored, a lot of damage was done.

Now, I still expect that list to continue, not be replaced by the forum. But it usually has so little traffic, and the spurts of traffic are mostly the same limited number of people talking about what to do to make that activity more active. Such as.... more new blood, young and old alike. Well, most of the new fliers are more accustomed to web based forums.

Where the forums excel at are the structured mean of following discussions. Sub-forums about various things. Threads about a certain topic, so if you read that thread you see all the messages in chronological order. In my e-mail client I have it set to show me most recent messages, so there is a blizzard of old messages to go thru to try to pick up who said what on a certain thread. If I go to the Yahoo-based website for that group it is a nightmare to follow threads anymore.

But one of the biggest pluses is the ability to have photos in the forum postings. So if someone is discussing a new model, or a technique, or whatever, they can put the images right in the message. In most mailing lists, including the one I refer to, attachments are not allowed. So, a person has to put their pics into the album section of the mailing list website, then let people know that they posted such and such in this or that folder, so stop reading the e-mail message and go jump on the web and manually look for the pics (as too many do not even post a direct link). And sometimes they announce it.... and the mailing list automated system also posts a message to announce a new file, file by file, message after message for each file posted, unless the poster thought to actively turned that OFF for each upload they did. Annoying and frustrating.

There's GOT to be a better way.... oh, there is..... online forums.

If we are successful at launching the forum for that group then we hope for it to become a popular "go to" site for that particular part of the hobby.

The one plus that a mailing list has is that it can "actively" announce something important so it ends up in your mailbox right away..... if you bother to read your e-mails more often that check web forums. I literally have friends who go days/weeks without checking their e-mail.... but see them post regularly on Facebook or such. So, it varies.

As for people not wanting to change things.... well, I agree that is an issue. And I'm one of them at times, really depends on what it is (Spend $10,000 , again, on a website overhaul so it looks prettier, but people can NOT FIND stuff on the site anymore? LOST sight of the big picture!). Some ask me to use the "messages" feature on iOS... and I refuse. Not to refuse the technology, but to limit the ways of communication to something manageable. If anyone ever asks me why don't I reply to their message on Facebook, or anywhere else, I'll tell them why didn't they E-mail me????? My main means of active personal communications are phone, e-mail, and letter, in that order (or Skype if we make arrangements by phone or e-mail for a time to do so, but that's more like a phone call, with video. Otherwise I do not have Skype running on my computer). Anything else, don't count on me seeing it.

But in any case, certainly for the people in the group I refer to, I figure for the most part they'll also be willing to go to an online forum. And a lot of them will probably THRIVE with the additional capabilities and hopefully the more active discussions, information, and answers, and most importantly to help draw in new people wo are seeking all sorts of info and have lots of questions (almost nobody comes to the mailing list to ask for info or help anymore.). Well, eventually we'll find out, once it's online and has had a year to get going.

- George Gassaway

It's been a while, but I've been involved with a couple of Yahoo-interest group-mail lists in the past.
And I absolutely hated it - completely and totally. Horrible in every way. Yuck. A lot.
Online forums (such as this one) are vastly better.

Everyone has there preferences, and I'm sure lots of folks would be comfortable with a mailing group as opposed to a forum.
But I for one would be gone in a heartbeat if this community went that way.

my dos pesos,
s6

blastzone said:

There are actually legal ramifications to that for any vendors sharing their list. Personal information cannot be shared unless the people giving that information have 'opted in' to that sharing. Interesting idea, but implementation would be problematic.

Click to expand...

Oh yes you are right...permissions are very important for usage of such a list. But frankly there are few effective ways to target such a narrow interest group such as ours...digital Targeting, social media audience Targeting require a budget commitment in the mid 5 figures just to set up, and your odds of reaching rocket enthusiasts with demographic and lifestyle Targeting are poor. Shared customer lists do the best job of qualifying prospective customers and are most likely the most cost effective.

email lists make my brain bleed. Tech advances every 3 months or less. email lists are a 25-30 year old medium. hell, newsgroups would be more cutting edge.

Start a forum..... or a FB group. Old people need to get over this whole "i don't facebook" thing. Every time I hear it I have a micro seizure.

DizWolf said:

email lists make my brain bleed. Tech advances every 3 months or less. email lists are a 25-30 year old medium. hell, newsgroups would be more cutting edge.

Start a forum..... or a FB group. Old people need to get over this whole "i don't facebook" thing. Every time I hear it I have a micro seizure.

Click to expand...

Facebook sucks. I hate that form of online media. A forum sure. Email list I will do, but crap like Facebook and Twitter ( why would one want to engage in an action who's root word it twit) annoy me. I just do not like them- use them if you want, but I have no interest in them.

markkoelsch said:

Facebook sucks. I hate that form of online media. A forum sure. Email list I will do, but crap like Facebook and Twitter ( why would one want to engage in an action who's root word it twit) annoy me. I just do not like them- use them if you want, but I have no interest in them.

Click to expand...

I second those sentiments. Yeah, you can call me an old neck beard, but I've looked at each segment of new technology since FidoNet, and it's my choice to accept or reject them. The advantage to maillists is convenience - everything is dropped into your in box. The disadvantage is flexibility. A web forum, like this one for example, has the ability to subdivide discussion areas. With a maillist, you have to either have a separate list for each subtopic (scale, LPR, MPR, HPR, etc.) or live in chaos. Additionally, maillists do not easily allow insertion of pictures/videos/other files into messages.

DizWolf said:

people need to get over this whole "i don't facebook" thing.

Click to expand...

no we don't.

s6

There are some really serious privacy concerns about facebook that I for one don't want to dismiss. I use it, but grudgingly.

And yeah, forums are a whole load better than mailing lists.

DizWolf said:

Old people need to get over this whole "i don't facebook" thing. Every time I hear it I have a micro seizure.

Click to expand...

Sorry Dave, I don't do Facebook, though I don't consider myself particularly old. It's funny you phrase that like you did, because it seems to me that almost all of the people that I do know that actively use FB are people that would be generally classified as "old" - or at least older. Certainly older than me. My mother, my aunt, retired guys in the bike club, etc. To me, its less about age and more about deciding that I don't need to deal with one more thing that I'm expected to spell out my life out in a public format, and stay on top of maintaining that. I have no interest in that whatsoever.

I guess my confusion is why people feel it requires them to give out info.

sooner.boomer said:

...Additionally, maillists do not easily allow insertion of pictures/videos/other files into messages.

Click to expand...

Fifteen years ago, prior to becoming a BAR, I was a BAFHP (born-again french horn player) and I subscribed to the Elmhurst Hornlist. It was a golden era when the technology was still young and the playing field was so broadly and democratically level that beginning horn players could get advice from some of the greatest horn players, teachers, manufacturers and repairmen in the world. The mailing list allowed you to get your e-mails one at a time (deleting the threads you don't want to read) or get a daily digest to scroll through. The downside was that you could not attach files and had to post a link to something hosted elsewhere. Remember when you had to draw a diagram with ASCII text?

The horn lists are still out there but are nearly ghost towns. The majority of players have moved to social media, where they can post their pictures and music. However, the problem with this broad horizontal expansion is there is no single source, no centralized meeting point for all to come together. There are numerous french horn pages just on Facebook alone.

DizWolf said:

I guess my confusion is why people feel it requires them to give out info.

Click to expand...

Well, its not so much requirement, of course, but there at least seems to be some expectation of it. I get that you control what you put up there, post as much or as little as you like. But what's more is keeping up with it, as well as posts of anyone you've friended. For me, its just one more time consuming thing that I don't care to get involved in.

To the original topic, I've been involved with a yahoogroup (originally egroup) for the Mazda 323GTX. When it started, it was something of a revelation. These cars were rare enough that, up to that point, as an owner you were sort of all alone. The chances of coming across another one - much less anyone that knew anything about them or their specific issues - was rare. The mail list brought everyone together in a way that, like Joe mentioned with horn players, allowed a huge degree of cross pollination. It used to be that there'd be up to dozens of messages everyday dealing with all sorts of technical topics. I've never come across a better tech-oriented group of car enthusiasts online anywhere. I haven't owned a GTX in a couple of years, but stay on the list due to the connection I've had with a lot of those guys and the fact that it takes almost nothing out of my day to deal with. The idea of moving to a message board has come up many times, but the group always resisted due to a lot of the reasons discussed here, and due to all of the tech archives and databases where all engrained at the yahoogroup site. And there had been 323/Protege forums that came up that made a place for us, but nobody really jumped over. I don't think anyone wanted to undertake the move and loose what we had. The email group still exists, but it has trickled off to one or two posts a day (maybe), or sometimes go days/weeks with none. Part of the fall off is the old format, but part of it is also due to the obscure nature of the car. There were less than 1300 sold in North America, and they're all over 25 years old now. The fan base itself has dwindled as the population of the cars has fallen off.