Estes' quality control???

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Donaldsrockets

Donaldsrockets

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Is it just me or is Estes' quality control really starting to slip big time???

About 2 weeks ago I bought a Mercury Redstone kit from my local HL and noticed it had a damaged BT. No problem, they send me a new one in perfect shape but now I noticed that I have a piece of the escape tower missing. It's the V piece. They gave me TWO of the T pieces instead.

At this point I must admit I'm about ready to toss the whole thing in the trash!!!:mad:

It's too bad. I really wanted the Goblin re-release but now I'm not so sure as this might very well be the last Estes kit that I ever buy.

Just wondering if anyone else has encountered this severe slip in Estes quality control. Note, I am certainly NOT bashing Estes in any way as I've had great luck with their kits in the past and their customer service is top-notch.
 
You gotta figure they just restarted production of that kit after many years, so production hiccups could happen. Still, I feel your frustration. I'm sure if you call them, they'll make it right.
 
You should buy the Goblin from Semroc (eRockets) since they actually own the rights to the design. Last week Randy told us that Carl owned the Goblin design and when Randy bought Semroc he acquired the design in the deal. The Goblin was the first kit that Randy released after he started making kits from the Semroc line. He even has a few Goblin t-shirts; although I am not sure if those are available on-line.

https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-flying-model-rocket-kit-goblin/
 
Zeus-cat said:
You should buy the Goblin from Semroc (eRockets) since they actually own the rights to the design. Last week Randy told us that Carl owned the Goblin design and when Randy bought Semroc he acquired the design in the deal. The Goblin was the first kit that Randy released after he started making kits from the Semroc line. He even has a few Goblin t-shirts; although I am not sure if those are available on-line.

https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-flying-model-rocket-kit-goblin/
Click to expand...

You know what,

Great suggestion, I will probably do just that.:wink:
 
Zeus-cat said:
You should buy the Goblin from Semroc (eRockets) since they actually own the rights to the design. Last week Randy told us that Carl owned the Goblin design and when Randy bought Semroc he acquired the design in the deal. The Goblin was the first kit that Randy released after he started making kits from the Semroc line. He even has a few Goblin t-shirts; although I am not sure if those are available on-line.

https://www.erockets.biz/semroc-flying-model-rocket-kit-goblin/
Click to expand...


I have just finished building the SEMROC Goblin and when I bought it from my local vendor, he threw in the T-shirt with the log on it. I'm going to wear it at the first club launch next month....
 
While I have not had missing parts, crushed and out of round body tubes happens way more than it should. I think they try to fit too much stuff in too small of a bag. I understand trying to keep the package as small as possible to save on costs and shipping, but I sometimes think they push the limit. They are however very good about replacing damaged parts, but it is a pain to have to wait for replacements.

Mike
 
I guess I don't get the OP's attitude? You had one damaged tube, which was more likely than not due to poor handling during shipping or at HL, not a question of Estes QC. Estes replaced this promptly at no cost to you, no questions asked.

You have one dainty plastic bit missing, which sucks but happens sometimes. From this you've decided that Estes is a lousy company no longer deserving of any business?

As long as we're sharing anecdata, I've built close to 50 Estes kits, and the current models are, far from slipping, noticeably higher quality than in the late 90s / early 2000s when I was first into the hobby. Laser cut fins are night and day compared to "die-smushed", more water slide decals instead of thick nasty stickers, better kit designs, better tolerances on centering rings etc. I've never had a missing part and only a couple purely cosmetic, easily repaired tube dings (which I've had from other manufacturers too). About the only thing that's noticeably downhill are the multi-lingual instructions which seem to have sacrificed detail.

Most non-Estes kits I've built require more futzing with parts to get them to fit. But most people excuse those flaws as "builders' kits" (which I'll admit is fun sometimes). I've had Quest nose cones that were extremely loose and didn't match the OD of the tube. I had to get a LOC tube replaced because it had fin slots visibly out of square. I've had a dinged balsa nose cone with deep, hard to fill grain in a Semroc kit. Most HPR kits have minimal instructions and require 3 trips to the hardware store to complete. So when you say it's gone downhill... Compared to what?

I'm no blind fanboy, but it seems like there's a lot of unjustified Estes hate. Is it just signaling to prove you're cooler than beginners who only know Estes?
 
Oberon said:
I guess I don't get the OP's attitude? You had one damaged tube, which was more likely than not due to poor handling during shipping or at HL, not a question of Estes QC. Estes replaced this promptly at no cost to you, no questions asked.

You have one dainty plastic bit missing, which sucks but happens sometimes. From this you've decided that Estes is a lousy company no longer deserving of any business?
Click to expand...

Excuse me but this is not the first time I have had this happen. I had this happen a few times with their kits and the STM-012 kit was the worst offender. They sent me another kit that had even worse off tubes because the bag was too small and from what I've heard, that still has not been corrected either considering the kit has been out for about 3 years now.

I never ONCE said Estes was a lousy company. Sure, they've had a few lemon products over the years but what manufacturer hasn't??? Heck, they make the best BP motors hands down. I think you need to re-read my original post where I said I was NOT bashing Estes.

And one more thing, I have built well over 200+ rockets of all sizes from numerous kit manufacturers with a majority of them being Estes and have been involved with the hobby for over 20 years so I'd like to think I know a thing or two about rocket building. I was even L2 certified until about a year ago but gave up HPR because I couldn't justify the cost anymore. I really miss it and will take it up again if my financial situation improves. Working only part-time and helping my mother who was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's tends to take a hit to one's finances.

I do apologize to the others about this rather harsh response but I will not tolerate being accused of bashing a company when I clearly noted that I did not.
 
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At this point I must admit I'm about ready to toss the whole thing in the trash!!!
mad.png


It's too bad. I really wanted the Goblin re-release but now I'm not so sure as this might very well be the last Estes kit that I ever buy.
Click to expand...


When you follow that up with "I'm not bashing Estes... severe slip in quality" it's sort of the classic "no offense but..." statement.

If you've had multiple/ongoing issues with Estes in general, then describe that! Your OP talked about 2 minor problems with one kit, and from that we were supposed to conclude that never buying another Estes kit is an appropriate response because overall quality has gone down "big time".

I apologize if I read too much into that and offended you, and I can understand frustration, but perhaps don't use angry face emoticons and threaten to throw something in the trash / never buy again if you don't want people to think you're bashing something. And seriously when did describing something as "bashing" become such a heinous insult requiring an emphatic statement of intolerance anyway? Do we need to go out and duel at dawn to defend our honor now? No offense was intended my good man! (Which was kind of my point, we're all in this hobby together and turning quickly to anger, at vendors or each other, doesn't help anybody)

I was in no way attempting to question your building skills or experience, and definitely not insult or be insensitive to anyone with Alzheimer's (???) just noting that I've had a lot of Estes kits with no issues, in answer to the implied question of your post title. I do apologize for my last statement about signaling, that wasn't directed at you in particular, more that sometimes threads about Estes or Aerotech turn into pile-ons that seem a bit over the top.

That said stuffing too much into bags seems to be an issue, but I'm not sure it's gotten worse. They don't box many kits anymore though, I'll give you that. Of course most vendors don't. I'm guessing they've decided a few extra customer service responses costs less than the extra packaging, which sucks if you get a dinged one.
 
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Donaldsrockets said:
About 2 weeks ago I bought a Mercury Redstone kit from my local HL and noticed it had a damaged BT. No problem, they send me a new one in perfect shape but now I noticed that I have a piece of the escape tower missing. It's the V piece. They gave me TWO of the T pieces instead.
Click to expand...

This is a little off-topic but I had the same thing happen with replacement double-doors for a garden shed. The manufacturer sent me two right doors...and I'll admit I struggled longer than I should have before I finally realized there was no way they were going to close.

In that case, the manufacturer made good and sent me a new left door. I still have the extra right door :)

I do wish that Estes would sell replacement parts though...Maybe you want separate Freedom 7 and Liberty Bell 7 capsules for your Mercury Redstone? Or maybe your capsule is at the bottom of the local pond (not unlike Liberty Bell 7 :) )
 
Oberon said:
I apologize if I read too much into that and offended you, and I can understand frustration, but perhaps don't use angry face emoticons and threaten to throw something in the trash / never buy again if you don't want people to think you're bashing something. And seriously when did describing something as "bashing" become such a heinous insult requiring an emphatic statement of intolerance anyway? Do we need to go out and duel at dawn to defend our honor now? No offense was intended my good man! (Which was kind of my point, we're all in this hobby together and turning quickly to anger, at vendors or each other, doesn't help anybody)

I was in no way attempting to question your building skills or experience, and definitely not insult anyone with Alzheimer's (???) just noting that I've had a lot of Estes kits with no issues, in answer to the implied question of your post title.
Click to expand...

Oberon

I understand and apology accepted. I'm not the one with Alzheimer's, thank god but my mother is and it's hard for me to see her go through this especially when she has to ask me questions that she had already asked me about 30 minutes prior.
 
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My dad lost his Grandmother to Alzheimer's, and it's the most devastated I've ever seen him. Nasty disease, definitely one of the cruelest. Thoughts and prayers!
 
Oberon said:
My dad lost his Grandmother to Alzheimer's, and it's the most devastated I've ever seen him. Nasty disease, definitely one of the cruelest. Thoughts and prayers!
Click to expand...

Thank you. Much appreciated

That and cancer. Esophagus Cancer took my father almost 7 years ago.
 
SecretSquirrel said:
Would you mind showing your work on that? I'm curious how that happened.
Click to expand...

I can't necessarily show the work, but last week at eRockets build night, Randy (owner of eRockets/Semroc) was talking about how Estes had decided to re-release the Goblin even though Semroc had the rights to it. Might be a non-exclusive rights issue? No idea. I just have anecdotal information.
 
loopy said:
I can't necessarily show the work, but last week at eRockets build night, Randy (owner of eRockets/Semroc) was talking about how Estes had decided to re-release the Goblin even though Semroc had the rights to it. Might be a non-exclusive rights issue? No idea. I just have anecdotal information.
Click to expand...

My curiosity is up, I just spent the weekend with Estes reps and someone brought up this subject. They seem pretty sure they still own the rights. I know copyright and trademark laws are pretty complicated and I'm just wondering how people are reaching their conclusions.
 
loopy said:
I can't necessarily show the work, but last week at eRockets build night, Randy (owner of eRockets/Semroc) was talking about how Estes had decided to re-release the Goblin even though Semroc had the rights to it. Might be a non-exclusive rights issue? No idea. I just have anecdotal information.
Click to expand...
A quick search of the Goblin history shows it in the 1972 Estes Catalog https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/72est016.html and there's a bit of history at rocket reviews https://www.rocketreviews.com/estes-goblin-david-urbanek.html

That was well before Semroc existed, and indeed the Goblin and many of Semroc's rockets are OOP Estes designs, and I'll assume that Carl got permission for Semroc use the Estes OOP designs provided Semroc did not use the Estes logo in their replica kits.

Bob
 
SecretSquirrel said:
My curiosity is up, I just spent the weekend with Estes reps and someone brought up this subject. They seem pretty sure they still own the rights. I know copyright and trademark laws are pretty complicated and I'm just wondering how people are reaching their conclusions.
Click to expand...

I too am curious...I imagine there is some kind of friendly licensing agreement in place. I sincerely doubt Estes could afford a nasty, Apple Vs. Samsung-style legal battle over design rights...their interests are probably better served by cooperating with smaller competitors to expand the base of the hobby. In fact Semroc probably helps them sell a lot of motors (as would the Squirrel Works, of course :) )
 
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bobkrech said:
A quick search of the Goblin history shows it in the 1972 Estes Catalog https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/72est016.html and there's a bit of history at rocket reviews https://www.rocketreviews.com/estes-goblin-david-urbanek.html

That was well before Semroc existed, and indeed the Goblin and many of Semroc's rockets are OOP Estes designs, and I'll assume that Carl got permission for Semroc use the Estes OOP designs provided Semroc did not use the Estes logo in their replica kits.

Bob
Click to expand...

That's kind of how I see it as well. I could talk to Randy and get more definitive answers if people would like me to.
 
They seem pretty sure they still own the rights.
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about the legal end of this discussion on the Goblin. I asked the legal people at Estes if we could come out with the Goblin and I was given the go ahead. The fact that our version came out only months after the Semroc release is simply bad timing. I am currently working on kits for the 3rd and 4rth quarter of 2016. This means that the Estes kit was in fact in production in China when the Semroc kit was announced. I spent many hours talking with Carl over the years. My verbal agreement with Carl was if Estes wanted to bring out an old kit that he had in production, he would stop producing this kit but would be allowed to sale off his inventory. I took this a step further and since I knew what bring backs Carl was working on I simply would not do those kits. This included the three Centuri Super Kits I was planning on doing for Estes. When Carl mentioned he was working on them I simply did something else.

To everyone out there, As to the reason for this thread I would suggest you go over the entire contents of your kit so only one Customer service call needs to be made.

John Boren
 
JumpJet said:
I don't know anything about the legal end of this discussion on the Goblin. I asked the legal people at Estes if we could come out with the Goblin and I was given the go ahead. The fact that our version came out only months after the Semroc release is simply bad timing. I am currently working on kits for the 3rd and 4rth quarter of 2016. This means that the Estes kit was in fact in production in China when the Semroc kit was announced. I spent many hours talking with Carl over the years. My verbal agreement with Carl was if Estes wanted to bring out an old kit that he had in production, he would stop producing this kit but would be allowed to sale off his inventory. I took this a step further and since I knew what bring backs Carl was working on I simply would not do those kits. This included the three Centuri Super Kits I was planning on doing for Estes. When Carl mentioned he was working on them I simply did something else.

To everyone out there, As to the reason for this thread I would suggest you go over the entire contents of your kit so only one Customer service call needs to be made.

John Boren
Click to expand...

I sent an email to Randy asking for any info he cares to share about the Goblin issue. I wasn't trying to start anything or make people think that there is bad blood between Randy and Estes. Far from it; Randy has a heckuva lot of Estes kits on his display racks. The two companies compliment each other in this small hobby.
 
JumpJet said:
I don't know anything about the legal end of this discussion on the Goblin. I asked the legal people at Estes if we could come out with the Goblin and I was given the go ahead. The fact that our version came out only months after the Semroc release is simply bad timing. I am currently working on kits for the 3rd and 4rth quarter of 2016. This means that the Estes kit was in fact in production in China when the Semroc kit was announced. I spent many hours talking with Carl over the years. My verbal agreement with Carl was if Estes wanted to bring out an old kit that he had in production, he would stop producing this kit but would be allowed to sale off his inventory. I took this a step further and since I knew what bring backs Carl was working on I simply would not do those kits. This included the three Centuri Super Kits I was planning on doing for Estes. When Carl mentioned he was working on them I simply did something else.

To everyone out there, As to the reason for this thread I would suggest you go over the entire contents of your kit so only one Customer service call needs to be made.

John Boren
Click to expand...

Always a pleasure to hear the inside stories about the industry, John. Kind of refreshing that so much is done on a verbal/handshake basis...but then I guess rocketry is a pretty small world.
 
Donaldsrockets said:
Trust me, I feel like an idiot because of this.:facepalm:
Click to expand...

You shouldn't. Things happen, but across the spectrum of consumer products, it's happening more and more often. You paid your money up front in good faith, the manufacturer failed to deliver.

Lots of folks would say "Who cares, it's just a toy rocket"? The same people who care that it's not a counterfeit dollar!

Remember, the BEST customer service is the one you never have to call. The BEST warranty is NEVER having to use it!
 
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JumpJet said:
I don't know anything about the legal end of this discussion on the Goblin. I asked the legal people at Estes if we could come out with the Goblin and I was given the go ahead. The fact that our version came out only months after the Semroc release is simply bad timing. I am currently working on kits for the 3rd and 4rth quarter of 2016. This means that the Estes kit was in fact in production in China when the Semroc kit was announced. I spent many hours talking with Carl over the years. My verbal agreement with Carl was if Estes wanted to bring out an old kit that he had in production, he would stop producing this kit but would be allowed to sale off his inventory. I took this a step further and since I knew what bring backs Carl was working on I simply would not do those kits. This included the three Centuri Super Kits I was planning on doing for Estes. When Carl mentioned he was working on them I simply did something else.

To everyone out there, As to the reason for this thread I would suggest you go over the entire contents of your kit so only one Customer service call needs to be made.

John Boren
Click to expand...

So if I'm reading this correctly, and since Semroc only came out with the USS America (and it was a balsa nose cone version unlike the original), it would be great if you re-planned on doing the Centuri Super Kits. I'm sure everyone here would eat them up, and hopefully the rest of the hobby market would buy them too.
 
Randy sent me a list of rocket names that have been trademarked. The Goblin is on the list. Based on the dates I assume Carl put this list together. I'm not a lawyer and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but I would say that a trademarked name is not the same as ownership of the design. So if Carl trademarked the name, then technically, only Semroc can use that name, right?
 
bobkrech said:
A quick search of the Goblin history shows it in the 1972 Estes Catalog https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/72est016.html and there's a bit of history at rocket reviews https://www.rocketreviews.com/estes-goblin-david-urbanek.html

That was well before Semroc existed, and indeed the Goblin and many of Semroc's rockets are OOP Estes designs, and I'll assume that Carl got permission for Semroc use the Estes OOP designs provided Semroc did not use the Estes logo in their replica kits.

Bob
Click to expand...

SecretSquirrel said:
My curiosity is up, I just spent the weekend with Estes reps and someone brought up this subject. They seem pretty sure they still own the rights. I know copyright and trademark laws are pretty complicated and I'm just wondering how people are reaching their conclusions.
Click to expand...

I’m sure I can’t find the thread, but I do remember Carl discussing this on one of the forums years ago. There was his initial posting of the fact that he had received a letter from Estes’ legal regarding his use of Estes’ intellectual property. There was much rejoicing when Carl & Estes came to an agreement.

I don’t believe that Semroc owned the design, from what I recall, but that they were releasing kits for which there was demand from customers.

I don’t know (or remember) the agreement contents, but I’m sure there was something in there regarding usage of names and designs.

I’m sure that Sheryl would be the best placed person to comment authoritatively on this.

Cheers,
Jon
 
the 'Retro-Repro' Goblin is not an exact copy of the original. there are some differences in the decal artwork and it uses a single long launch lug(the original, and the new release use a pair of short lugs). I suspect that those changes were part of the agreement between semroc and Estes. I recall reading that the retro/repro line was intended to capture the 'feel' of the originals w/o being exact copies.
Rex
edit
I will note that my new goblin came with 2 sets of instructions...this is intended as one set is in English/French/Spanish and the second set is in German and two other languages that I don't recognize :).
 
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