Radio tracking - Basic help needed

AKVP said:

Hello Chris-

I emailed Com-Spec and asked if the PR-100A receiver can track frequencies of 216-219 MHz and this was his reply:

Hi Andrew, Only the PR-100 Export Version, will cover 216.025 thru 219.080, in 25KHz steps. The US PR-100 version covers 218.025 thru 219.300, in 25KHz steps, as well as the HAM frequencies 222.250MHz thru 223.290, in 20KHz steps.

As I understand, then, the receiver can work with the Marshal transmitter.....I think....yes?

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Here is a link to the PR-100A receiver manual. I keep looking this up and keep forgetting the results, but my recollection is that the PR-100A won't get the Marshall transmitters. I could be wrong. Com Spec is great to talk to about the electronics side, but they don't know a lot on the rocket side.

jderimig said:

Here is another license-free option for you.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?10403-LL-Electronics-Rocket-Recovery-Transmitters

Stick with transmitters and recievers from the same company. Its false economy to skimp on getting your rocket back.

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These are wise words. I did not skimp on my tracking electronics, but I can vouch for the pain of losing an expensive rocket. (Expensive is relative mind you). It has taken me a year on my rocketry budget to replace everything that I lost: two altimeters, custom av bay, chute, protector, 6XL motor, rocket, min. diameter motor retention, tail cone, harness, tracking transmitter, and more, plus all of the time put in making. Imagine the new stuff that I could have gotten with that!

grouch said:

Check with CJ on this. I know he uses a Com-Spec receiver with a Marshall TX. I also think Rick Comshaw has started doing this too. There is a thread CJ had where he shows you what he is using but I can't find it right now.

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It does look like the Scout VHF could work with the PR-100A if you get the right frequency. Still a lot of money to be guessing. PM blackjack2564. That's Crazy Jim. He would know.

4kids49 said:

It does look like the Scout VHF could work with the PR-100A if you get the right frequency. Still a lot of money to be guessing. PM blackjack2564. That's Crazy Jim. He would know.

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Yeah, reminds me I just got a ham ticket and thought a plain jane Alinco DJ296 would get me the tracker bands. Well, I still have the 296 but I can't use it for tracking!! Ask and be certain. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

Yeah, reminds me I just got a ham ticket and thought a plain jane Alinco DJ296 would get me the tracker bands. Well, I still have the 296 but I can't use it for tracking!! Ask and be certain. Kurt

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If you just want to do RDF, the Yaesu FT-60R is probably the most bang for the buck, at around $150. It's quite durable, and the S meter actually acts like an S meter. Comparable Icom and Kenwood HTs are a bit pricier.

RadManCF said:

If you just want to do RDF, the Yaesu FT-60R is probably the most bang for the buck, at around $150. It's quite durable, and the S meter actually acts like an S meter. Comparable Icom and Kenwood HTs are a bit pricier.

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Yes but only for FM trackers like the 70cm Beeline FM trackers. The 1.25M specialty trackers may use SSB or CW modulation. The Adept 70cm RDF tracker is with CW or AM modulation. https://www.adeptrocketry.com/radio.htm.

Now, I've done some short range ground testing with a Kenwood F6A and have been able to get a good strong signal with Com-Spec and Walston transmitters but have never used one in the field. I haven't seen anyone post whether or not
that is a practical solution but one can pick one up for $300.00.

Anyone try an F6A with some of the Com-Spec "type" RDF transmitters out in the field? I've brought mine to MWP some years ago and tuned across the 1.25M tracking band and heard a mess of trackers beeping away loud and clear with just a regular 3 band antenna on it. Kurt

Instead of posting my question in a new thread I'm going to append it to this thread. A number of clubs I have spoken with have RDF systems that fliers can borrow for their flights. Do the fliers need to be HAM licensed or can they use the club equipment under the supervision of someone who is licensed? Also will any radio beacon work with any receiver tuned to the same frequency? I'm assuming they can since it's not a coded signal. I'm looking at adding one of these to my rocket for a flight to 15k:

https://www.merlin-systems.com/falconry/transmitters/mini-fmv-transmitter.html

ksaves2 said:

Yes but only for FM trackers like the 70cm Beeline FM trackers. The 1.25M specialty trackers may use SSB or CW modulation. The Adept 70cm RDF tracker is with CW or AM modulation. https://www.adeptrocketry.com/radio.htm.

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An FM receiver will still work for SSB or CW, the received signal just won't be intelligible.

Ravenex said:

Instead of posting my question in a new thread I'm going to append it to this thread. A number of clubs I have spoken with have RDF systems that fliers can borrow for their flights. Do the fliers need to be HAM licensed or can they use the club equipment under the supervision of someone who is licensed? Also will any radio beacon work with any receiver tuned to the same frequency? I'm assuming they can since it's not a coded signal. I'm looking at adding one of these to my rocket for a flight to 15k:

https://www.merlin-systems.com/falconry/transmitters/mini-fmv-transmitter.html

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No the fliers do not need to be ham licensed but a Ham needs to be in "control" of the transmitter, preferably present usually satisfies that requirement.

Ravenex said:

Instead of posting my question in a new thread I'm going to append it to this thread. A number of clubs I have spoken with have RDF systems that fliers can borrow for their flights. Do the fliers need to be HAM licensed or can they use the club equipment under the supervision of someone who is licensed? Also will any radio beacon work with any receiver tuned to the same frequency? I'm assuming they can since it's not a coded signal. I'm looking at adding one of these to my rocket for a flight to 15k:

https://www.merlin-systems.com/falconry/transmitters/mini-fmv-transmitter.html

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Yes, you can use one of the systems under the supervision of someone who is licensed.

RadManCF said:

An FM receiver will still work for SSB or CW, the received signal just won't be intelligible.

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Ummmm, you actually try tracking at a distance that way? I saw squirrely signal strength meter behavior with just a local test. I walked away less than a half a block and it wasn't really workable. I still say, you got an FM tracker, use an
FM receiver, AM likewise AM receiver. Comspec I was able to get decent reception on SSB-USB but I didn't do a range test. I believe the makers jigger with some of the encoding schemes so their "tracker" is optimal with "their" receiver.
Since I got hooked on GPS I haven't experimented with RDF much anymore. I was impressed with a low powered XFM-1 in a mod roc though.
Also, I couldn't get the plain 1.25cm DJ296 to tune to the frequency of the Comspec stuff exactly. It was off frequency by a hair. That acts as an attenuator right off the bat. The F6A can fine tune on the B band and change to a variety of modes. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

Ummmm, you actually try tracking at a distance that way? I saw squirrely signal strength meter behavior with just a local test. I walked away less than a half a block and it wasn't really workable. I still say, you got an FM tracker, use an
FM receiver, AM likewise AM receiver. Comspec I was able to get decent reception on SSB-USB but I didn't do a range test. I believe the makers jigger with some of the encoding schemes so their "tracker" is optimal with "their" receiver.
Since I got hooked on GPS I haven't experimented with RDF much anymore. I was impressed with a low powered XFM-1 in a mod roc though.
Also, I couldn't get the plain 1.25cm DJ296 to tune to the frequency of the Comspec stuff exactly. It was off frequency by a hair. That acts as an attenuator right off the bat. The F6A can fine tune on the B band and change to a variety of modes. Kurt

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SSB is going to have a squirrely signal strength regardless of the type of receiver you use, as the output power of an SSB transmitter isn't constant. CW will be squirrely as well, just in different ways. AM will be intelligible through an SSB receiver, but not the other way around. AM also has a constant power output, but I'd think that the received strength on an FM receiver would still be squirrely, unless you had a filter about 500hz wide, so as to filter out the sidebands.
So, when you say your HT was off frequency by a hair, how much was it off exactly? My FT-60R was able to match my BRB beacon exactly, even though the frequency it was on initially was not on one of the HT's normal tuning steps.

RadManCF said:

SSB is going to have a squirrely signal strength regardless of the type of receiver you use, as the output power of an SSB transmitter isn't constant. CW will be squirrely as well, just in different ways. AM will be intelligible through an SSB receiver, but not the other way around. AM also has a constant power output, but I'd think that the received strength on an FM receiver would still be squirrely, unless you had a filter about 500hz wide, so as to filter out the sidebands.
So, when you say your HT was off frequency by a hair, how much was it off exactly? My FT-60R was able to match my BRB beacon exactly, even though the frequency it was on initially was not on one of the HT's normal tuning steps.

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No, the FT-60R is fine with BRB. A 1.25cm FM transceiver couldn't tune a Com-spec type transmitter exactly. It's a little outside of the 220mhz ham band. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

No, the FT-60R is fine with BRB. A 1.25cm FM transceiver couldn't tune a Com-spec type transmitter exactly. It's a little outside of the 220mhz ham band. Kurt

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Ah. The DJ296 doesn't have extended receive?

Its so funny how a thread can evolve.....This has been an education...I understand about 2% of all this stuff you are all talking about.

That comment that somebody can operate a HAM radio without a license as long as somebody who is a HAM is in "control" or present......got me thinking.....My Dad got me a car to use I was young....even though it was in his name, I drove it....HMMMMM

AKVP said:

Its so funny how a thread can evolve.....This has been an education...I understand about 2% of all this stuff you are all talking about.

That comment that somebody can operate a HAM radio without a license as long as somebody who is a HAM is in "control" or present......got me thinking.....My Dad got me a car to use I was young....even though it was in his name, I drove it....HMMMMM

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There are some clubs that have club callsigns, in order to provide their members with tracking gear. Also, keep in mind that many suppliers of tracking devices will require them to prove that you hold a Ham license before they sell to you.

RadManCF said:

Also, keep in mind that many suppliers of tracking devices will require them to prove that you hold a Ham license before they sell to you.

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I am not sure how big of an issue that is. I have never had to supply my license info. It is not illegal to buy and own equipment. It is only illegal to transmit on air without a proper license on bands that require such license.

Chris-

I know I was just kidding around....I flew last weekend and the club was kind enough to have trackers to lend.

I did call a number of manufactures of trackers and transmitters. Now guys, before I tell you what one guy said....I want you to know....I don't want to open a can of worms here...(and I am NOT going this rout)... but some folks (and I will NEVER tell) said the FCC does not care about a tiny a transmitter from a tracker. This individual went on to say nobody is going to disrupt an AM station fetching a rocket. He told me no worries...just get your tracker and go have fun.....

I am only telling you what he told me. I am NOT advocating going Ham-less I am just saying.....so nobody get all worked up on me ......

I still have no idea what you are all talking about....

This thread is full of great information...but it is not basic!! HA HA HA HA!!!

We may go from "Who flew the G" to......"Hey....are you HAM-Less?....show me your papers!"

AKVP said:

but some folks (and I will NEVER tell) said the FCC does not care about a tiny a transmitter from a tracker.

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That may be true, but HAMS do care about unlicensed interlopers on their ham bands. Believe me you do not want to upset that community......

Like I said.....I don't condone the action of going HAM-less nor want to upset the powerful HAM community....I was just relaying what some...person(s) said to me.

I actually-really drive the speed limit and come to a complete stop at all stop signs.....you should see the wrath I get from the world on a daily basis for following these laws......I don't need wrath from anymore groups!

I also guess all the HAM guys out there better come and check the frequency boards at all the launches around the country....less the HAM launchers be called frequency interlopers, and really upset them.

4kids49 said:

I am not sure how big of an issue that is. I have never had to supply my license info. It is not illegal to buy and own equipment. It is only illegal to transmit on air without a proper license on bands that require such license.

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BRB requires it. They aren't specific on how they want you to provide proof though. When I've ordered from them, I've entered my callsign in the special instructions section of the ordering page, and I assume that they checked my information against the ULS.

jderimig said:

That may be true, but HAMS do care about unlicensed interlopers on their ham bands. Believe me you do not want to upset that community......

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This is one of the reasons many Hams take up foxhunting, to be able to find unwanted signals in their bands. Here's a thread from QRZ.com that is an excelent example:https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/bad-baby-monitors-on-50-125-fm.310670/

AKVP said:

Chris-

I know I was just kidding around....I flew last weekend and the club was kind enough to have trackers to lend.

I did call a number of manufactures of trackers and transmitters. Now guys, before I tell you what one guy said....I want you to know....I don't want to open a can of worms here...(and I am NOT going this rout)... but some folks (and I will NEVER tell) said the FCC does not care about a tiny a transmitter from a tracker. This individual went on to say nobody is going to disrupt an AM station fetching a rocket. He told me no worries...just get your tracker and go have fun.....

I am only telling you what he told me. I am NOT advocating going Ham-less I am just saying.....so nobody get all worked up on me ......

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A rocket tracker won't disrupt an AM station because the AM broadcast band is directly below the 160 meter Ham band, whereas a rocket tracker will be on either 70cm or 220mhz. However, a defective tracker could transmit harmonics outside the Ham bands, and the FCC will definitely care if the users of that spectrum notice. Around 220mhz, the neighbors include military aeronautical radio, and TV channel 13. Up at 70cm, Hams are secondary users of the spectrum, while the primary user is USAF's PAVE PAWS radar system. It's easy to avoid interfering with it, as it's stations are all located on the coasts, and look away from the CONUS. The UHF business band is also nearby. Knowing how you could affect the neighbors is one of the most important things to know in radio, and one of the reasons for amateur radio licensing.

How about these little guys? I think they originally are for car keyless fobs. They are very cheap and operate on 315MHz, 433MHz, et. al.



https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10535
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10534

Ari.

Chris-

In regards to your reply in post #54

Now THAT was very informative! Yes...makes much more sense. Like I had said way back...had no intention of, nor wanted to imply that I was....going HAM-less. I just wanted to pass on what some folks had told me. Like I also said in post #1...I don't know anything about all this....hence the basic help (and perspective) needed.

As a side note.....for a guy looking in from the outside. It does kind of blow my mind that we can have GPS units that are powerful enough to communicated with satellites and transmit coordinates and can have cell phones that transmit signals to a tower and make a call around the globe...all without a license. But a tiny transmitter that only makes a tiny BEEP so I can locate a pet or a rocket, requires me to register and get a license with a government entity and has a "community" that we don't want to upset. I know I may be speaking in ignorance, but common sense is....or seams to be telling me this is overkill to require a license for a little rocket tracker. It looks like a "Brave New World" more and more each day.....heck I even had to register my canoe!....made of a couple of pieces of stamped metal. A license just to go float on a pond or lake.....it gets old.

In Reply to this post/comment.....

"This is one of the reasons many Hams take up foxhunting, to be able to find unwanted signals in their bands. Here's a thread from QRZ.com that is an excelent example:https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?thre...125-fm.310670/"

I guess now that I ALSO...have to worry about angry HAM guys Fox Hunting ME and my rocket/transmitter combination all to find out if I have a HAM - Tech license (hope they don't take my rocket as hostage as well...until I show them my papers!)...I think at this point I am going to just save up and get a Garmin GPS. What a pain in the.......

AKVP said:

In Reply to this post/comment.....

"This is one of the reasons many Hams take up foxhunting, to be able to find unwanted signals in their bands. Here's a thread from QRZ.com that is an excelent example:https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?thre...125-fm.310670/"

I guess now that I ALSO...have to worry about angry HAM guys Fox Hunting ME and my rocket/transmitter combination all to find out if I have a HAM - Tech license (hope they don't take my rocket as hostage as well...until I show them my papers!)...I think at this point I am going to just save up and get a Garmin GPS. What a pain in the.......

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Don't let it scare you, if you're following the rules, they're a very nice bunch of people, who will be very happy to see their ranks expanded, and will provide a great deal of advice and assistance. Keep in mind that all the commercial rocket trackers transmit your callsign, so anyone receiving the signal will know that the source is licensed. Also, if the garmin you're considering is the dog tracking unit, be aware that it operates in the MURS bands (150mhz). There's been a great deal of controversy about the legality of using MURS equipment from aircraft, with people getting conflicting opinions from FCC. From my reading of the applicable part of the FCC rules (part 95), I'm against using it. From what I've been told about the Garmin, it also transmits at the full power allowed under part 95, which is two watts. For rocket tracking, that's kind of excessive. Also, if it fails to get a GPS lock, it doesn't transmit. Therefore, it can't be DF'd.

Well then.....I give up....How about a super loud sonic locator like the Trans-solve unit Apogee sells? I think I will go with that before I need to get a license to make some noise......If not, I will simply wait till the crops come off.

AKVP said:

Chris-

In regards to your reply in post #54

Now THAT was very informative! Yes...makes much more sense. Like I had said way back...had no intention of, nor wanted to imply that I was....going HAM-less. I just wanted to pass on what some folks had told me. Like I also said in post #1...I don't know anything about all this....hence the basic help (and perspective) needed.

As a side note.....for a guy looking in from the outside. It does kind of blow my mind that we can have GPS units that are powerful enough to communicated with satellites and transmit coordinates and can have cell phones that transmit signals to a tower and make a call around the globe...all without a license. But a tiny transmitter that only makes a tiny BEEP so I can locate a pet or a rocket, requires me to register and get a license with a government entity and has a "community" that we don't want to upset. I know I may be speaking in ignorance, but common sense is....or seams to be telling me this is overkill to require a license for a little rocket tracker. It looks like a "Brave New World" more and more each day.....heck I even had to register my canoe!....made of a couple of pieces of stamped metal. A license just to go float on a pond or lake.....it gets old.

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Part of the issue with Ham licensing is that it not only gives you authority to operate, it gives you authority to operate on a wide range of frequencies, all with different propagation characteristics. That's not the case in any of the unlicensed services. For example, an FRS walkie talkie putting out 500mW isn't going to be heard very far away. A 100W Ham radio on 14.313 can be heard around the world under the right conditions. A great deal of the regulatory content of the General and Extra exams deals with international communications. Furthermore, the Ham license also allows you to operate radios that have not been certificated (yes that's a word, they used to call it type acceptance) by the FCC. Doing that wrong could cause major problems. Lastly, it doesn't actually take that much power to communicate with satellites. The Ham community has actually launched a number of satellites, which act as repeaters. They routinely communicate through them using only 5W HTs, and handheld yagis. There's a related activity called Earth Moon Earth (EME), or moonbounce, where the moon is used as a passive reflector at VHF on up. That can be done with 100W. Long story short, getting radio signals outside the atmosphere doesn't take that much power, at least not at VHF and above. Reason for that is that frequencies below VHF will be mostly reflected back to earth by the ionosphere, whereas VHF and above goes straight through. For that reason, communication with satellites and spacecraft is done at VHF and above.