Is this rocket stable?

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It appears there is a lack of members on here. I'll go ahead and take a look.
 
it appears as it reaches close to motor burn out the CP and CG are about 3.25 inches apart from each other. Since the rocket diameter is 5", this pretty much says that the rocket will likely go unstable near motor burn out around 3.25 seconds. This is mostly the area where the top speed is reached. You should consider adding some weight to increase the CG.
 
Yah, Alex, that's what I'm seeing too... but I was really wondering if it would survive this window of lesser stability ??? Currently, I've added 400 grams to the NC and since additional weight results in a lesser apogee I really hate to add any more..... unless, it's absolutely necessary. I really can't see it going into a tumble at this velocity... but that's why I'm on here asking BEFORE I cut the fins. Thanks for the response!
 
Yah, Alex, that's what I'm seeing too... but I was really wondering if it would survive this window of lesser stability ??? Currently, I've added 400 grams to the NC and since additional weight results in a lesser apogee I really hate to add any more..... unless, it's absolutely necessary. I really can't see it going into a tumble at this velocity... but that's why I'm on here asking BEFORE I cut the fins. Thanks for the response!

There is a small window before the rocket hits unstable. Unfortunately for me I don't have rocksim to check that out for you. If I remember though you need not let it drop less than 0.8 of a caliber. If what I saw is correct, you would have a caliber of 0.65. I would consider that too close for it to survive. I would indeed advice lowering the fin span on those fins. The chance of fin flutter is very possible with all that surface area. I always follow the 1:1 ratio being one body diameter. In this case your fins should have a fin span of 5".
 
You have to give this a few days, many don't check forum EVERY day...LOL

You are experiencing "mach jump", which requires higher stability margin than normal in over M2 flights. Cp jumps forward severely approaching 2 transitioning to 3. There is no "rule" other than what applies to your individual project. that being said I would not be comfortable unless at greater than 3 to start with and no less than 1.5 during transition.

Then you have wind shear-angle of attack and many other things that will screw with stability during the flight you must account for to be a success.

I did a little futzing with your design...shortened the root...changed tip...added 2lbs to NC.
You see after this......... stability is greatly increased, and altitude about the same. Satbilty has increased from .65 to 1.8 at M2.8
A bit slower but you coast more still hitting 56,000

Add a 4th axis, label mach to get this plot

Screen Shot 2015-08-18 at 1.37.35 PM.jpg N-5800 +2lb.jpg



I did this in 30 minutes, not wanting to re-design your project for you...just showing what can be done. I actually would run sims for hours before settling on my final design.

Your "as is" plot is just way to unstable to fly during mach-jump

Good luck, what are you actually attempting?
 

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Jim, Please attach your design file... I'm here to learn, so I'd like to see what changes you made that achieved your results. Thanks! Goal? Other than to see if I was capable of designing a rocket that would stay together powered by the N5800... nothing really. ha! So far, it appears I'm failing!

You have to give this a few days, many don't check forum EVERY day...LOL
You are experiencing "mach jump", which requires higher stability margin than normal in over M2 flights. Cp jumps forward severely approaching 2 transitioning to 3. There is no "rule" other than what applies to your individual project. that being said I would not be comfortable unless at greater than 3 to start with and no less than 1.5 during transition.

Then you have wind shear-angle of attack and many other things that will screw with stability during the flight you must account for to be a success.

I did a little futzing with your design...shortened the root...changed tip...added 2lbs to NC.
You see after this......... stability is greatly increased, and altitude about the same. Satbilty has increased from .65 to 1.8 at M2.8
A bit slower but you coast more still hitting 56,000

Add a 4th axis, label mach to get this plot

View attachment 270345 View attachment 270346



I did this in 30 minutes, not wanting to re-design your project for you...just showing what can be done. I actually would run sims for hours before settling on my final design.

Your "as is" plot is just way to unstable to fly during mach-jump

Good luck, what are you actually attempting?
 
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Jim, Please attach your design file... I'm here to learn, so I'd like to see what changes you made that achieved your results. Thanks! Goal? Other than to see if I was capable of designing a rocket that would stay together powered by the N5800... nothing really. ha! So far, it appears I'm failing!

We are here to help lad. We want your project to be a success.

You must learn to play around with your design. Like Jim said, he spends hours messing around with his designs until he feels happy with it lol.

I will again advice lowering your fin span. You want to minimize fin flutter as much as possible.
 
Got it on the fin span. Thanks.

We are here to help lad. We want your project to be a success.

You must learn to play around with your design. Like Jim said, he spends hours messing around with his designs until he feels happy with it lol.

I will again advice lowering your fin span. You want to minimize fin flutter as much as possible.
 
Jim, Please attach your design file... I'm here to learn, so I'd like to see what changes you made that achieved your results. Thanks! Goal? Other than to see if I was capable of designing a rocket that would stay together powered by the N5800... nothing really. ha! So far, it appears I'm failing!

Sorry but I did not save it, rather opted to leave your file alone when I finished. Well designing is one thing....the only way you will ever know is to take the risk, build it & fly it.

I did change your NC to power series 5.5 to 1 [27in] among other things.

It looked very close to this one, but in your daim. 5in. I cannot divulge who or what this one is, as it's being built as of now for a record attempt, so in all fairness to those involved, cannot post the file. That being said this is a snapshot of it & Carolina Composites is doing all the custom carbon. notice 4 fins instead of 3. It is for a German team.
As SinDL states this allows a shorter span. [what you want where possible]

I was sent a file that was several feet longer and squarish fins......after several hours this is what came out. Sent to flier where he finished the tweaking and final result along with C C before building began.
This was over a months time and many e-mails with the 2 other major players involved.
Yours was tweaked fin wise very close in shape. You'll find that a custom cone is needed for these usually 6-7 to 1 for optimum. [for what we do anyhow]

Screen Shot 2015-08-18 at 9.03.48 PM.png

I am by no means "the" expert in all this. But I have built a few extreme rockets.Some have failed, some worked great. That is part of the process to be expected when pushing the envelope. Probably 50-50 for most if your honest about it. The trick is just doing the research & not trying to re-invent the wheel. It's all been done in the 50-60's by military and sounding rockets....Google is your friend. I have thousands of pages of research and hundreds of hours reading all this stuff.....which I recommend if you are serious. Getting the fins to stay on is the hardest part, next is beating Mach jump, so it stays together. [in my opinion anyway] The other major hurdle is designing ejection charges that work at these altitudes.

This link is to another successful design that now holds the record for N's at 65,000[? don't remember, might be in the final page] My Ozzie friend Nic built this after 3 yrs of testing & research. There are many killer projects in this Australian Forum. I highly recommend searching around there, more Americans than you think hang out. Look for the Raptor 22..airframe made of glass & cork!

https://www.ausrocketry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4666

Do some research, start small, get the skills needed to build something that will hold together, and expect some failures along the way.
I have moved on to 2-stage to over 50,000....eventually higher, but on smaller motors than the above. More like a 3in M to a 54 L.
Charlie has been working on a 150,000 as well as Don. 1 a 2-stage N to N the other a Q. Hopefully we will have finished all our testing and be flight ready for all 3 flight for Ball next year.

Good luck.
 
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Hey, Jim,... thank you for your input AND the link. Had heard of that forum, but had never explored it. I hadn't considered my project that extreme, but as I become more educated, I realize just how difficult it is to achieve a stable design that touches M3. I'll go back and do up another design with 4 fins. Regarding keeping the fins on... that's the reason I went to a 5" diam. rocket instead of min diam. design; I just felt for my first attempt that I might have better luck keeping it all together. Thanks!
 
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Hey SDL,... that sounds just like me! Thanks! And before I forget again, note the carbon fiber fins. I have no idea what kind of heat those fins will have endure at a near M3 flight; Are they necessary?
 
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Hey SDL,... that sounds just like me! Thanks! And before I forget again, note the carbon fiber fins. I have no idea what kind of heat those fins will have endure at a near M3 flight; Are they necessary?

The last time I left a carbon fiber plate in direct sunlight, it got blazing hot. I dont know for sure if it is a concern, but covering your leading edge is a must with a high temperature epoxy. The last thing you want is your fins delaminating from the heat on the leading edge. I really dont know for sure how hot these things get.
 
I don't know if it's a must-do either.... thought I might just be on the safe side. I paint everything I fly and will be curious to see how much of it stays on this rocket post flight.
 
SinfulDarkLord and BlackJack2564 ... If you would, please let me know what you think of this. Thanks!

This design is much, much, better. During the Mach 3 phase, your CG vs CP will be 7.5 inches apart. that's a good caliber of 1.5. You can bet it will be fine. I want to include that your upper airframe is too long. The chances of buckle failure is very possible. To prevent that from happening you must chop it smaller. I'd say around 20 inches should do. The stability will get to 1.25 calibers instead of 1.5, but to me that is a good safety margin for that amount of stability.

Good work lad, keep designing until you feel comfortable with it.
 
The upper airframe is too long.... REALLY?!! I just HATE having to stuff a large chute into a too-small section! I may risk that, BUT thank you for the warning.


This design is much, much, better. During the Mach 3 phase, your CG vs CP will be 7.5 inches apart. that's a good caliber of 1.5. You can bet it will be fine. I want to include that your upper airframe is too long. The chances of buckle failure is very possible. To prevent that from happening you must chop it smaller. I'd say around 20 inches should do. The stability will get to 1.25 calibers instead of 1.5, but to me that is a good safety margin for that amount of stability.

Good work lad, keep designing until you feel comfortable with it.
 
The upper airframe is too long.... REALLY?!! I just HATE having to stuff a large chute into a too-small section! I may risk that, BUT thank you for the warning.

Its either that or make your coupler way longer. A long airframe and short coupler equals easy bending. A longer coupler would fix that, but its best to reduce the length than increase the coupler.

What chute are you getting? Some are easy to fold and some are a pain in the neck to stuff in there.
 
Here's version 20 (!). Note that I did shorten the payload section to 25". I've also moved the fins up to make construction easier.. and I've lost a bit of stability with that move. Also, I have put back in the allowance for epoxy... just to be sure the design remains stable if I get too generous with that. One thing that I've discovered is how critical the aft diameter of the tailcone is. If I can't find a tailcone with this aft diameter, I'll either lose about 850' of apogee or need to redesign again. I've got a TopFlight 120" chute that I've used on other projects that I will also use on this one. There should be plenty of room if I keep the upper section at 25".

Its either that or make your coupler way longer. A long airframe and short coupler equals easy bending. A longer coupler would fix that, but its best to reduce the length than increase the coupler.

What chute are you getting? Some are easy to fold and some are a pain in the neck to stuff in there.

View attachment Broken Arrow 5TC C20 .ork
 
Here's version 20 (!). Note that I did shorten the payload section to 25". I've also moved the fins up to make construction easier.. and I've lost a bit of stability with that move. Also, I have put back in the allowance for epoxy... just to be sure the design remains stable if I get too generous with that. One thing that I've discovered is how critical the aft diameter of the tailcone is. If I can't find a tailcone with this aft diameter, I'll either lose about 850' of apogee or need to redesign again. I've got a TopFlight 120" chute that I've used on other projects that I will also use on this one. There should be plenty of room if I keep the upper section at 25".

I checked the design and I am confused. I loaded the N-5800 motor and the stability is at 0.425 calibers. I believe moving the fins forward may have caused this. What tailcone were you planning on getting?
 
I sent you a file that I accidentally deleted all of the NC mass. Just add weight back into the NC under "nose weight" and that will make it ok again.

I checked the design and I am confused. I loaded the N-5800 motor and the stability is at 0.425 calibers. I believe moving the fins forward may have caused this. What tailcone were you planning on getting?
 
Tailcone: I think I'll make contact with Rocketry Warehouse to see if they have anything close to this that will work. If you have any other sources for tailcones, please let me know.

I checked the design and I am confused. I loaded the N-5800 motor and the stability is at 0.425 calibers. I believe moving the fins forward may have caused this. What tailcone were you planning on getting?
 
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