Should we over regulate us?

I have some D11-P motors and wanted people to know they were available.
So I posted on EBay that I had them.
I understand it's their policy not to have anything like that posted.
But I am a certified hazmat shipper so it's not an issue for me to legally ship them.
Well I got this guy named rocket23085 that sent me this message:

"It is illegal for an individual or hobby shops to ship model rocket motors via the USPS without an exemption which is difficult to obtain. Engines with more than 30 grams of propellant my not be shipped via USPS under any circumstance. These can be shipped via UPS or FedEx but they require a HAZMAT charge of $20-30 per shipment in addition to shipping fee.

Here is a link to the USPS website: https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_016.htm#ep898682

Take at look at this document, https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf
Estes/Quest rocket motors up to D are classified as Division 1.4S explosives
Stiff fines are possible and have been reported. Both the seller and the buyer are subject to the fines.
It is also against Ebay policy to post listings with rocket motors. "

He then reported my post to EBay to pull the post down.
He didn't know who I was or what my shipper status was.
It reminds me of the guy down south that back in 2009 when the FAA had the notice for rule change told them the limit should be O class motor not R class motors.

So I ask you, should we feel that we need to over regulate ourselves?
Even when all the data isn't in our hands?? Or when we feel we know more than anyone else???

we have too many Mother's in this country I moved out of my parents at 17 and feel that people like that need to get a life

I seem to recall on another thread, at some point within the last two years, reading a similar response from a vendor to another user. So close in fact that I suspect it was that vendor who sent you that post and reported you to eBay. I cannot find it but if you run some searches you may come across it.

Robert,

I don't know what to tell you. If there has been anything I have learned with regard to self policing and the enforcement of the clubs rules and federal/state law is this, the best way to ensure that they are followed by all is to have a majority of individuals in charge of the national clubs who will honestly enforce the rules and report violations of the law when it happens, regardless of who their buddies are. If the right message is not sent clearly to everyone in the club about what to do and what not to do, who knows what you will have happen.

Some peoples arrogance would have club members and the AHJ's believe that we are all perfect, every one of us, 100% of the time, for decades. I'm sorry but that is not human nature. There is only one who is perfect.

The other thing I have learned is, you better not speak openly in the presence of non-club members about the concerns or dealings of the club. If you do, you can be found in violation a clubs by-laws and be suspended from said club, even if you are not a member at the time you were speaking about them. Yeah, weird, I know.... So, be careful with your posting here. ;-)

On a side note, I just watched a video of a new product from Giant Leap, the TRACKIMO. At the very beginning of the video, Kent says something like "be sure to always abide by the safety code guidelines" and he even lays down a copy of the TRA Safe Launch Practices guide sheet. Very well done Giant Leap. You are sending the right message!

Robert, your last sentence says it all. Here was someone who wanted to show how much he knows. Only, he didn't know as much as he thought he did.

Did you get it straightened out with eBay?

I think maybe the fact that you can ship the motors legally should have been mentioned in your ad. Many here on TRF that have had ads for motors have been made aware of the fact that they need to be shipped legally. Some vendors were shipping motors non hazmat that required hazmat for quite awhile until someone informed them of the regs. I think after winning the lawsuit with the ATF, most of us wish to keep the regs the way they are now ( not get worse) and try to help out anyone that is unaware of the regs required to ship motors.

I am not familiar with ebay policies as I have never sold anything through them, but you say in your post that you violated their policy and that this person reported you. You also say that he didn't know your shipper status AND you also posted where he said that both the shipper and the receiver can be fined if an unauthorized person ships a hazmat product. Am I missing something? It sounds like he did the right thing.

If you expect exemption from ebay policies shouldn't you have to prove that you are authorized to ship hazmat product? And shouldn't the customer be able to verify that prior to buying as they can be penalized if the shipper does something wrong?

These are the ONLY rules that matter.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?13110-Rules-and-Guidelines

It's simply eBay policy to not sell motors regardless of shipping status. It just doesn't matter. They just don't allow it anymore that they allow the sale of firearms even if you possess an FFL.

I apologize if I don't fully understand - or if I'm speaking out of turn.

It seems obvious you fully understand the USPS shipping rules.

I think the part you don't understand is that your post was in clear violation of EBAY rules.

I don't think anyone was trying to over-regulate you...

dave carver said:

It's simply eBay policy to not sell motors regardless of shipping status. It just doesn't matter. They just don't allow it anymore that they allow the sale of firearms even if you possess an FFL.

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I guess theres an exemption if youre from AUS. 5 sold and more.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pack-of-3-...rs-Ignitors-/221732487262?hash=item33a049405e

Is that Blake's ?

Nay, that eBay seller isn't Blake (i.e. Australian Rocketry). The seller's shipping info indicates their intension to ship those D12 motors via regular postal mail service, which isn't legal in Australia.

Robert

Wow!

He is right that evilbay does not allow for the selling of motors (and a lot of other stuff), I wonder if he knew who he was dealing with!
If he did, then shame on him!

Some people just have too much time! Others appoint themselves as judge, jury and executioner.....
don't know which one it is....

I hope he reported the 4 Australian motors, as well as the 10 I found via "Estes Engine" not to mention searching Quest & AT.....After getting home at midnight from a motor vehicle accident (I'm a vol firefighter as well) and getting up at 5 I just don't have either the time or energy to worry about ebay.

Isn't Ebay merely doing what the NAR, Tripoli and other non-governmental organizations do....self regulating?

Max Q said:

Nay, that eBay seller isn't Blake (i.e. Australian Rocketry). The seller's shipping info indicates their intension to ship those D12 motors via regular postal mail service, which isn't legal in Australia.

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Yea, didnt catch the guy's a r/c reseller. Prolly unaware of the restrictions. He may find out the hard way.

I remember many yrs ago getting estes motors from Hobbylinc via USPS. No DOT box. Only an orange label that said Toy Propellant.

rocketsaway said:

Yea, didnt catch the guy's a r/c reseller. Prolly unaware of the restrictions. He may find out the hard way.

I remember many yrs ago getting estes motors from Hobbylinc via USPS. No DOT box. Only an orange label that said Toy Propellant.

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What I can't believe is the price he's getting. Around $89AUS shipped!!!! I don't know the exchange rate from Aus to US but unless it's 4 AUS dollars to one US dollar that's obscene...or is it normal? Holy crud, Batman, you'd HAVE to be dedicated to fly hobby rockets in Australia....

rdh8 said:

I understand it's their (Ebay) policy not to have anything like that (motors) posted.

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If you're a motor vendor that ships motors according to the regulations why violate EBay's policy against selling motors? It appears to me that you were trying to sell motors on Ebay and got reported to Ebay. Now you're complaining about it on the TRF forum. As a TAP and L3CC you should be following the rules, even the ones on Ebay, setting an example for others.

Bat-mite said:

Did you get it straightened out with eBay?

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Yes, Never thought I would get a call from EBay:wink:

RandyT0001 said:

If you're a motor vendor that ships motors according to the regulations why violate EBay's policy against selling motors? It appears to me that you were trying to sell motors on Ebay and got reported to Ebay. Now you're complaining about it on the TRF forum. As a TAP and L3CC you should be following the rules, even the ones on Ebay, setting an example for others.

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Let me clarify a bit.
I didn't know until they called me and pointed it out.
The post was more about regulating ourselves or not.
I volunteered at TARC and one team got their 1.4C motors shipped as 1.4S.
Should I have reported this shipping violation to the post master?

It's a tough call. I have sensed a general fear amongst members of the rocketry community that if one or two people get caught breaking the law, then the BATFE is going to shut down the hobby. I don't know how realistic that is. But I think the person on eBay should have tried to contact you first, and asked you if you were aware of the law, eBay policy, etc. Then, based on your reply, he could make the decision to report or not. A simple effort to communicate with you would have gone a long way.

I am a diabetic, and years ago, when I had long hair and a beard, I stopped in a McDonald's to take an insulin shot. I did it in the men's room in a stall. Someone came in, and I guess looked in on me, and called the cops because he saw a needle. I then had to get grilled by the cops in the restaurant until they were able to ascertain that it was insulin and not heroin. All the guy had to do was ask me what I was doing before calling the cops. He still could have called them; but at least I would have had a chance to explain myself.

So maybe the question isn't whether or not we should self-regulate; maybe the question is how quick should we be to jump to conclusions without first gathering enough information?

rdh8 said:

Let me clarify a bit.
I didn't know until they called me and pointed it out.

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That is a big difference.

I volunteered at TARC and one team got their 1.4C motors shipped as 1.4S.
Should I have reported this shipping violation to the post master?

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I would not report it to the postmaster, let the Inspectors find such violations on their own. If the company or person mis-labeled the package and that is why it was shipped 1.4S I would contact them about the mistake so hopefully the mistake is not repeated, thereby saving them from potential arrest, confinement, court, fines and penalties. If it was a mistake by the shipping company (the USPS I guess) I would not say anything to them about it.

The post was more about regulating ourselves or not.

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There is a difference between self-regulation and self-reporting. We should do the self-regulation, both personal and within the group, all the time but avoid the reporting unless the offender is blatant and repetitive about violations.

Welcome to the nanny state of hobby rocketry. It's been that way since forever. Way back when it was a witch hunt for who flew the G motor. There are still flyer that claim anything over a D motor is contributing to the death of the hobby.

I know for a fact that the eBay complainant you referenced is a vendor that's on a crusade to rid the internet of any personal motor sales. He has struck before and personally I can't wait till he dies!

BayouRat said:

Welcome to the nanny state of hobby rocketry. It's been that way since forever. Way back when it was a witch hunt for who flew the G motor. There are still flyer that claim anything over a D motor is contributing to the death of the hobby.

I know for a fact that the eBay complainant you referenced is a vendor that's on a crusade to rid the internet of any personal motor sales. He has struck before and personally I can't wait till he dies!

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I have several times contacted a seller to let them know what they are selling is banned by eBay. They thanked me and pulled the motors from their ads.

BayouRat said:

Welcome to the nanny state of hobby rocketry. It's been that way since forever. Way back when it was a witch hunt for who flew the G motor. There are still flyer that claim anything over a D motor is contributing to the death of the hobby.

I know for a fact that the eBay complainant you referenced is a vendor that's on a crusade to rid the internet of any personal motor sales. He has struck before and personally I can't wait till he dies!

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Is it this guy ?

[video=youtube;GEStsLJZhzo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo[/video]

https://www.ebay.com/sch/thenandnow...h=item25ab56b32d&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

At least the price is right.

rdh8 said:

....I volunteered at TARC and one team got their 1.4C motors shipped as 1.4S.
Should I have reported this shipping violation to the post master?

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That would be really interesting because there is not a single TARC motor that is 1.4C.....

Bob

rdh8 said:

Well I got this guy named rocket23085 that sent me this message:

"It is illegal for an individual or hobby shops to ship model rocket motors via the USPS without an exemption which is difficult to obtain. Engines with more than 30 grams of propellant my not be shipped via USPS under any circumstance. These can be shipped via UPS or FedEx but they require a HAZMAT charge of $20-30 per shipment in addition to shipping fee.

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I think I may know that guy.
When I was a kid, he was the one on the school bus that was given the honor of wearing the orange safety officer belt to make sure kids behaved.
He got so drunk with power he began telling every kid on the bus what to do and when.
One day a bunch of guys got off the bus with him when the bus got to his stop.
Everyone on the bus crowded to the back and was looking out the back window of the bus as the bus drove off, and he was getting a code red from his peers.
I think even the bus driver was laughing.