Some grumblings about the PSII line of Estes rockets...

I've heard some grumbling that Estes may be discontinuing the PSII builder's kits due to motor reasons. Seems that their larger 29mm motors are manufactured by someone else, and a lot of us are just buying other 29mm motor brands. Obviously, Estes wants us to buy their motors, so their focus is shifting to the RTF type kits (which forces people to buy smaller, single use motors, like Estes sells). One potential example of this may be shown by the removal of the MDRM's nosecone from the parts lineup (as of 8/1/15 when I checked it).


I can understand Estes' logic, but I really do like the kits (and the parts for upscales). If the kits do get pulled, I'm still hoping to make upscales of some classic kits in the PSII sized body tubes.


Seems to me like Estes is also moving to progressively more RTF or ARTF rockets. Man, I hate that... I'm a builder, and I enjoy the craftsmanship that comes with taking raw parts and turning it into something cool.

I agree completely! I'm new to the hobby, but like any other guy, I want bigger, faster and higher. The PS II kits fit my needs for now and I find building these kits relaxing. I've built them per instructions, but there's just something about fitting pieces of cardboard tubing and plywood fins together to fly 1500-2000 feet at 200-300 mph I find amazing. I've been buying the kits as fast as my better half will let me, so that way I have a few, just in case I lose one. I've even talked her into getting one that I'll help her build, and she can paint pink if she wants! But in all seriousness, I'm hoping they don't discontinue the line. Maybe updating??

K'Tesh said:

Seems to me like Estes is also moving to progressively more RTF or ARTF rockets. Man, I hate that... I'm a builder, and I enjoy the craftsmanship that comes with taking raw parts and turning it into something cool.

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I really like their "sci fi" and high skill level kits. I am presently building their Asteroid Hunter (that unfortunately it appears they will be discontinuing).
While many of us enjoy these sorts of kits, it appears that the market is small for these types. John has posted comments about this in the past.

WRT the PSII kits, I am actually bored with 3FNC rockets, and that is what most of the PSII type kits are. I did get the Argent and the Mega Red Max, but none of the others.

les said:

I really like their "sci fi" and high skill level kits. I am presently building their Asteroid Hunter (that unfortunately it appears they will be discontinuing).
While many of us enjoy these sorts of kits, it appears that the market is small for these types. John has posted comments about this in the past.

WRT the PSII kits, I am actually bored with 3FNC rockets, and that is what most of the PSII type kits are. I did get the Argent and the Mega Red Max, but none of the others.

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If that ends up being the case, I just want the parts to be available, that way I can build lightweight MPR kits of my own.

"<you've> heard some grumbling..." ?!?!? Ok K'Tesh name some names ! And if one of them is not John Boren then I call this FUD - fear, uncertainty, doubt. Of course I support your right to post whatever wild speculation you want. :grin: :wink:


For those that may not know, John Boren - TRF's Jumpjet, is Estes model rocket R&D czar. The Big Cheese. The Chief Designer. El Ultimo Jefe.

Glad I stocked up on the complete line of PSII kits on sale when I did. Gonna keep them all in original packaging until I see where they are going. I'm still going to build one of my Leviathan's just to get my C1 and retire it to display in all it's OOP glory.

samb said:

"<you've> heard some grumbling..." ?!?!? Ok K'Tesh name some names ! And if one of them is not John Boren then I call this FUD - fear, uncertainty, doubt. Of course I support your right to post whatever wild speculation you want. :grin: :wink:


For those that may not know, John Boren - TRF's Jumpjet, is Estes model rocket R&D czar. The Big Cheese. The Chief Designer. El Ultimo Jefe.

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My contact isn't John Boren. However, I'm not at liberty to discuss who I spoke to in order to protect their job.

K'Tesh said:

My contact isn't John Boren. However, I'm not at liberty to discuss who I spoke to in order to protect their job.

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If this turns out to be true, hopefully BMS or Semroc will pick up the pieces or in this case parts, hopefully the parts for the PSII's were made in the US that way we can still get them.

Interestingly, the Leviathan is no longer even on the website, and it looks like they are determined to keep the other builder kits on special for some time. The Scion and Sahara "SPEV" theory seems plausible. Everything I've heard indicates that Estes really does rely on motors for a good chunk of their sales, so if PSII kits aren't flying on Estes motors (and why would they? The Estes composite motors are just relabeled Aerotechs for substantially higher cost...) then I can see Estes not seeing the upside. Especially since Aerotech is now a direct competitor in the LP market (I hope AT expands Quest, actually).

OTOH, as far as "more RTFs than ever", I'm actually very pleased with the current Estes line of builders kits. Many more skill level 3+ kits, sci-fi stuff, some classics, etc. than I remember a few years ago. Rockets like the Conquest, Odyssey, Xarconian Cruiser, Scorpion, Asteroid Hunter, Black Star Voyager - those are all serious build challenges that will keep you busy awhile. There are a lot of ARFs/RTFs too, but it's a big catalog. And as always they are consistent quality, "complete" kits at reasonable prices.

K'Tesh said:

My contact isn't John Boren. However, I'm not at liberty to discuss who I spoke to in order to protect their job.

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Hmmm... a "deep throat" style informant is a horse of a different color. I hope that little admission doesn't have any negative repercussions. John has stated in several past threads that he's flown all the PSII models except the maxi Red Max with Estes 29mm BP motors. But many (most ?) TRFers would rather motivate them with H and I impulse.

Interesting that the PSII line may have a similar life cycle as the original Pro Series rockets.

Jumpjet would not have made that kind of statement IMO, he's all about R&D. Odds are its some one in Marketing, just a guess on my part.

Estes has been trying mamy different product ideas since it was sold to Hobbico.

One does not need an 'inside source' to get the impression that the original PSII product line may be on the way out.
Only two additional kits (MDRM and Nike Smoke) were added after the initial kits were released.
Then Estes switched to the PSII E2X models.
Fry's Electronics cut the prices on their PSII inventory to get rid of it.
Darn near every Estes website sale includes the four original PSII kits.

I'd say the original PSII kits have one or two more years left in the Estes catalog.

Initiator001 said:

Estes has been trying mamy different product ideas since it was sold to Hobbico.

One does not need an 'inside source' to get the impression that the original PSII product line may be on the way out.
Only two additional kits (MDRM and Nike Smoke) were added after the initial kits were released.
Then Estes switched to the PSII E2X models.
Fry's Electronics cut the prices on their PSII inventory to get rid of it.
Darn near every Estes website sale includes the four original PSII kits.

I'd say the original PSII kits have one or two more years left in the Estes catalog.

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I have a feeling that they are no longer in production and extending the sale until they are sold out. Leviathan has disappeared completely from their website. One down, 3 to go, one down 3 to go.......

samb said:

Hmmm... a "deep throat" style informant is a horse of a different color. I hope that little admission doesn't have any negative repercussions. John has stated in several past threads that he's flown all the PSII models except the maxi Red Max with Estes 29mm BP motors. But many (most ?) TRFers would rather motivate them with H and I impulse.

Interesting that the PSII line may have a similar life cycle as the original Pro Series rockets.

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I thought that the original PS series was done in by too many CATO's of the shorter (than modern) E motors.

The main issue is that their black powder 29mm E & F motors are just not that exciting and barely powerful enough to lift the PSII models. They should have kept on with their rebadged aerotech APCP motors, sold them at a decent price and they'd be doing a lot better.

K'Tesh said:

I thought that the original PS series was done in by too many CATO's of the shorter (than modern) E motors.

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Oh, those 1990s Estes E15 BP claimed many a model. I saw it happen several times.
No, IMO, the origianl Pro Series kits were done in by poor product design and execution. The AeroTech kits of that time were much better.
The Pro Series kits were a half-hearted attempt to compete with the AeroTech product line. Estes didn't have the motors that they needed so they tried to compete with kits using clusters of D12 motors.

K'Tesh said:

I thought that the original PS series was done in by too many CATO's of the shorter (than modern) E motors.

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I wasn't thinking that specific. I was thinking about the general similarity of a line of rockets aimed at the old mid-power (E, F, G impulse) space and the info your mole provided alluding to motor questions. Just some wild speculation on my part !

rharshberger said:

Jumpjet would not have made that kind of statement IMO, he's all about R&D. Odds are its some one in Marketing, just a guess on my part.

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Yeah your right, jumpjet is a rocketeer, not a marketeer.

Initiator001 said:

Oh, those 1990s Estes E15 BP claimed many a model. I saw it happen several times.
No, IMO, the origianl Pro Series kits were done in by poor product design and execution. The AeroTech kits of that time were much better.
The Pro Series kits were a half-hearted attempt to compete with the AeroTech product line. Estes didn't have the motors that they needed so they tried to compete with kits using clusters of D12 motors.

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While the ease of build and durability of AT kits is very nice, IMHO, the design and scale details of the PS1 kits were, and still are superior to AT. I've yet to see a more accurate Jayhawk kit.

rharshberger said:

If that ends up being the case, I just want the parts to be available, that way I can build lightweight MPR kits of my own.

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Psssst........ LOC still makes parts. One thing I do plan to do is snap up as many estes retainers as I can

Loc tubes are considerably heavier than Estes and when I am building MPR or H/I impulse powered rockets I prefer the lighter tubes, also Loc doesnt offer a 3:1 ogive nc in 3" afaik. I use Loc for many of my other projects.

dpower said:

While the ease of build and durability of AT kits is very nice, IMHO, the design and scale details of the PS1 kits were, and still are superior to AT. I've yet to see a more accurate Jayhawk kit.

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The original Pro Series release consisted of the Impulse, Maxi-Force and Patriot models.
The Terrier-Sandhawk and Jayhawk came later.

I maintain that the first three Pro Series kits were poor models. I bought all five of the original Estes Pro Series kits. The only one I finished was the Terrier-Sandhawk. The Impulse was half-built when I decided to stop working on it.

I had already bought a Leviathan, then a TRF member gave a "head's up" about Fry's discounting their PS II stock. I actually took a long lunch to drive out to Fry's.

I wrote this in March of last year ...

... This morning I was able to get a PSII Mega Der Red Max ($25.xx), a PSII Nike Smoke ($19.xx), and a regular Der Red Max ($17.xx).

I feel like those of long ago, who got the last of the rare Estes or Centuri kits for a song.

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I still remember those big kits all lined up for sale.

Greg

Meh, who cares? You can buy parts from all over the place. Design your own. Scratch build scale models or whatever. I did a BT70 based Nike Smoke that I had sandman turn a cone for. I have a SEMROC Mercury capsule with a custom transition 3D print from vcp based around a 3" tube. I plan a 9 motor cluster with 5 24mm and 4 18mm motors. Should be pretty exciting

When eRockets get the SEMROC line of nosecones fully going again there will be plenty of the right profile cones to make anyone happy. I have a stash of 50 or so cones so I'm good for a while but I do need more, I got a box full of 34" and 36" body tubes in all diameters up to 4".

I haven't built an Estes rocket in years.

Initiator001 said:

The original Pro Series release consisted of the Impulse, Maxi-Force and Patriot models.
The Terrier-Sandhawk and Jayhawk came later.

I maintain that the first three Pro Series kits were poor models. I bought all five of the original Estes Pro Series kits. The only one I finished was the Terrier-Sandhawk. The Impulse was half-built when I decided to stop working on it.

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Um, excuse me? You bite your tongue, sir. The Impulse and Maxi-Force were far from being as good as the venerable Initiator, but the Patriot was a great rocket. The scale-like fins are a work of art and while the Estes circa 1992 may not have been able to light a candle to the midpower motor manufacturers, they have always been pros at clusters. The sight of those 4 D12's firing at once will bring a tear to the eye of the mightiest among us.

I recommend you build your kit and see for yourself. If not I will gladly take it off your hands for you.

r12ski,
Bad a** rocket photos!!! I can see that on the cover of Sport Rocketry.

I've seen this happen in other hobbies. No longer are you required to really build anything, but assemble a few parts. A few years ago, it was the R.C plane industry. No longer were kits the only offerings, but ARFs (Almost Ready to Fly) were becoming the rage. Many a manufacturer were pumping out these planes that required "as much time as you need to charge the batteries" to assembled 6 parts into a flyable plane. And today, few "kits" can be found. I like building. I like having a plane at eth field that is different that someone else's!

R/C cars too. I remember when you bough an R/C car, you had a bag of parts, and a bag of screws, nuts, washers, etc.. it took you a night or two to put it together. Now, it's all done for you. Again, open the box, charge up the batteries, and go. And you have the same blue car that I do.. same flame pattern, same number, same...

So, from what I've seen, the whole "build" aspect of a few hobbies has been lost to the immediate need / satisfaction..

Except Lego. For some reason, Lego is still the premier building toy..

My first airplane took me months to build and seconds to crash. Ahhh...the good ol' days. What is with this ready to fly crap? How are you supposed to know how it all works?

Oh and that Patriot looks awesome.