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gna

average joe-overbuild member
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Can I ship Estes BP motors through the US Mail, UPS, or Fed EX? My brother came to visit and left a pack of D12-3s here. He didn't want to try flying with them. I didn't think hazmat applied to small quantities, but you never know...
 
Can I ship Estes BP motors through the US Mail, UPS, or Fed EX? My brother came to visit and left a pack of D12-3s here. He didn't want to try flying with them. I didn't think hazmat applied to small quantities, but you never know...
I do hazmat shipping and have the training and permits to ship rocket motors. Please read my responses.
This is correct. All rocket motors of any size are hazmat when shipped in commerce: UPS, FedEx, etc. and you can not ship hazmat unless you are trained, and accepted by the common carrier. Even if you have training to ship hazmat you need to be a signatory to DOT-SP 7887 and you will have to purchase special packaging, labeling, and pay standard shipping costs and a $29 hazmat fee. It's not worth it for 1 or 2 packs of motors.

Yes, he can. He just needs written permission from DC.

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_018.htm
Almost correct. Certain smaller rocket motors known as "toy propellant devices" containing not more than 30 grams of propellant can be mailed (not shipped) by USPS but only after you received formal written permission. A toy propellant device assigned UN0454 or NA0323 and classed as a Division 1.4S explosive is eligible for mailing in domestic mail via surface transportation only when prior written permission has been obtained from the manager, Product Classification, USPS Headquarters, Washington, DC. This permission usually takes about 60 days. Once you get permission, you must properly label the box and pay the appropriate postage fee to mail the package.

Bob
 
Almost correct. Certain smaller rocket motors known as "toy propellant devices" containing not more than 30 grams of propellant can be mailed (not shipped) by USPS but only after you received formal written permission. A toy propellant device assigned UN0454 or NA0323 and classed as a Division 1.4S explosive is eligible for mailing in domestic mail via surface transportation only when prior written permission has been obtained from the manager, Product Classification, USPS Headquarters, Washington, DC. This permission usually takes about 60 days. Once you get permission, you must properly label the box and pay the appropriate postage fee to mail the package.

Bob

I think this has to be requested from the manufacture as well.
 
I think this has to be requested from the manufacture as well.

No, but the USPS allows manufacturers to list resellers who are added to the manufacturer's permission to ship motors. As the NAR document referenced above explains, your request for permission to ship motors has to include data about the motors which the manufacturer would have. Allowing resellers to piggyback on the manufacturer's letter reduces the work for the resellers and the USPS.

The NAR document that Fred referenced provides a good summary.

-- Roger
 
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Bob- every single thing you quoted was at the link I provided. How is that almost correct?
 
Bob- every single thing you quoted was at the link I provided. How is that almost correct?

It's a technicality as we tend to lump shipping and mailing together, but legally they are different.

As stupid as it may seem, common carriers are not allowed to deliver mail, nor is the USPS is not allowed to do shipping or handle hazmat by law. Shipping is done via common carrier. Mailing is done thru the USPS. DOT controls and regulates ground shipments in CONUS. FAA controls and regulates air shipments within the US. The USPS is constitutionally mandated to control and operate the mail delivery system (post) within the US.

Bob
 
Herm. Indeed. Someone needs to go talk to the boys at Click N Ship ;)


With the amount of business all carriers do with each other, what's mail and what isn't gets a bit gray in places. Though here, yes he'd have to mail it.... Not "ship". Though walk into any post office and say "I need ground shipping", and you'll get it :)
 
It's even more interesting than that with the current hybrid delivery services. Common carriers contract with the USPS for home delivery of packages and the USPS contracts with common carriers for long haul shipments of mail/parcels. What set of rules are they using? :confused:

If I, as a certified hazmat shipper, make a mistake, I, not my employer, am personally responsible for the error and can be personably fined by DOT or the FAA as well as the common carrier that accepted the package. The minimum fine is $750 for both the shipper and the carrier so the carrier has an incoming inspection of all hazmat packaging. If they find out that you made a mistake, they return the package to you under an exemption and you still have to pay the full shipping charges even though they did not deliver them. I stopped using UPS because I had to print out the shipping labels labels on their shipping forms using their software package and it printed out some of the information in 4 point type which they said was illegible but there was no obvious way to change the fort size. As a result, I ship all my hazmat via YRC because their software generates .pdf forms that always prints properly and gives me a hardcopy of everything generated for my records.

For the record, when you make up a common carrier hazmat motor shipment, you must include a hard copy paperwork of the (M)SDS, the emergency response plan, a copy of any special permit and authorization to ship rocket motors, and two signed copies of the shipping paperwork in an external document pouch, and affix the certified hazmat shipping box the proper descriptive contents label, a Class 4.1 or Class 1 diamond hazmat labels, special permit number label, and this side up arrows, and pack all the motors in the appropriate inner containers. When it gets picked up, the driver signs the paperwork and leaves you with a copy for your records which you are required to keep for 2 years just in case there is a problem or a DOT inspection. It's a PITA.

That's why it's not practical for an individual to ship rocket motors by common carrier. It's going to cost you several thousand dollars to get hazmat certified and to set up a commercial account with a commercial carrier, and then you have to purchase the DOT hazmat shipping boxes, labels, etc, and get the DOT required special permits (which takes a few months). If you go to this trouble, and ship rocket motors in a plain box without declaring hazmat, you are looking at thousands in fines if you get caught, so it's not worth the risk. Mailing small motors via USPS is much simpler however it still will take a couple months to get USPS written authorization to do it.

Bottom line is that it's quicker, cheaper and simpler to sell the motors you don't use locally before you go home.

Bob
 
Herm. Indeed. Someone needs to go talk to the boys at Click N Ship ;)


With the amount of business all carriers do with each other, what's mail and what isn't gets a bit gray in places. Though here, yes he'd have to mail it.... Not "ship". Though walk into any post office and say "I need ground shipping", and you'll get it :)


Click n ship wont do ground mail....and first class is not ground either. You have to use Parcel non presort.
 
I'll keep the D12-3s, then. I'll buy him a pack online and let someone else worry about Hazmat.
 
Click n ship wont do ground mail....and first class is not ground either. You have to use Parcel non presort.

I know this. But clickn ship WILL do mailings...and Bob has made it clear "shipping" is not "mailing" Hence, "click n ship" doesn't fit :p

My point was, if he REALLY wanted to, he could write to DC, and get permission to MAIL them parcel post. That's all. It's a bigger pain in the ass than it's worth, but it is technically possible....since we're splitting hairs here :)
 
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