Help with igniter failures

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Beano

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My son and I recently started launching rockets together with an Estes RTF package. We've had some fun, but I've been going through 5-6 igniter failures for every successful launch. I've done the basic troubleshooting and have also tried the trick of using a small ball of wadding and a pencil tip to ram it in instead of the yellow rubber plugs, but I'm still getting far too many launch failures. The igniters are always burning up the way they are supposed to- they just don't set off the propellant.

Any tips or tricks I should try?
 
Hi new guy :) Hard to diagnose from long distance but you will get all kinds of suggestions. Igniters are expensive so I know you need to find a solution so I'll take a stab at it. The newer igniters do not have the same amount of material on the end they used to have. I bend the wire just behind the glob to try and increase the exposed fuel to more igniter flame. Try not to wiggle the igniter too much, that can cause the igniter to move away from the fuel. Be real careful when hooking up the leads, too much wiggle then can do the same. It could be from using weak batteries. The igniter will burn but not energetic enough. Use fresh alkaline cells in the launch box, do not use rechargeable. When you use 4 of them you're down 1.2 volts from 4 alkaline cells. If you have the skills then you can chop up a nitro cellulose pingpong ball, dissolve it in acetone and dip the igniters into it. The mix should be gel-like so it sticks without dissolving the igniter head. This is semi-dangerous so be very careful and try only if you really think you can do it safely. I powder up the old style 4th of July sparklers and put a small amount of Super Glue on the igniter then dip into the powder. Once again, be very careful how you powder the sparkler. It doesn't have to be dust, tiny chunk is ok. I've used a paper bag and rolling pin and have also made a chump mortar and pistil from wood.

I know many others will have better ideas than these, I hope, but that's what I have done :)
 
What works for me is (following all needed safety/range protocols) I hold the motor/engine with the hole facing up, then drop the igniter in, making sure it's all the way down, then I insert the plug - making sure to not twist or "crunch". This gives me the best way to make sure the igniter tip touches the propellant. I also like to bend the igniter ends into a loop and split them out a bit before inserting, then bending over to the side after having the plug in place. Finally I put the rocket onto the pad and hook up the clips, being careful and making sure the clips don't pull out the igniter.

Also make sure you are using fresh batteries (as Dave mentioned) and the right size plugs!

Best luck to you and welcome to TRF! :)
 
When a guy named Beano asks about problems with igniters, it makes me think of lighting farts. But that's my problem.

The new "starters" with the white or gray tips are not as reliable as the old style ones with the black goop on the tips, but 5-6 failures per good launch makes it seem like something else must be wrong. I would check the batteries in the controller as Dave said.

Usually the little plastic plugs and the normal instructions work fine. I don't usually do anything special, so just double-check that you are being careful with all the steps.


  • I usually start by pausing to think about where I want the wires to end up when it is time to hook up the clips to the igniter. Usually that means I want the igniter wires pointing away from the side of the rocket that has the launch lugs. You are going to be bending the igniter away from the launch lug side, so put it in in such a way you can bend it without twisting the wires or making the wires touch each other.
  • Check the igniter and make sure the tip is not damaged. The crud on the end (pyrogen) should not be broken or crumbling, and the wires need to be intact.
  • Insert the igniter tip into the nozzle hole all the way in so that it is in contact with the propellant (the tip touches the bottom of the hole).
  • Keeping the tip in contact with the bottom of the hole, bend the wires over to the side --- make sure you don't cross the wires!
  • Push the plug into the hole to hold the igniter in place.

Problems can happen if you damage the pyrogen when putting in the igniter or plug, so be sure the tip is in contact with the propellant, but don't jam it in so hard you smash it. And problems can happen if the wires get crossed or twisted. It the igniter is not positioned the way you want it, pull it out and start over --- don't try to twist it into position or the wires will get crossed.

I've never "dipped" my igniters, but I am thinking about starting to dip the ones that come with the white or gray pyrogen. I'm thinking about trying Magnelite.
 
This is what I have been dipping my Estes igniters in I dipped 24 and 12 of them I used clear finger nail polish. point being on wet field condition if I drop one in the wet grass no foul. Now I use a 12 volt jump starter but so far not one failure. well worth the time and extra cost.

"I've never "dipped" my igniters, but I am thinking about starting to dip the ones that come with the white or gray pyrogen. I'm thinking about trying Magnelite."
https://www.quickburst.net/quick_dip.htm
 
Dipping shouldn't be a problem. Could just use nichrome and dip like the way "old" Estes igniters were that had the blue pyrogen.
Yada, yada, yada follow the safety precautions and don't blame the group if you "Put your eye out."

Fine powders, sparkler dust or otherwise can flash violently so be very careful. I took a 1.2ml ultra-centrifuge vial I had epoxied a nichrome igniter in. I then put Al/CuO thermite in the vial
that was super ultra fine and I did not pack it. It was sort of a super light suspension. I had sense enough to use a launch panel setup so I was 20 feet away. I pushed the button and that thing instantly vaporized and exploded like an M80! Holee cow. There was a slight yellow shadow of the vial plastic and some fine copper shadow on the driveway.

Thermite has a high heat of activation but the powder was mixed just right, suspended just right and the igniter that was nichrome wrapped shooter's wire got enough heat in there for the thermite reaction to occur in I suspect milliseconds. I tried to reproduce it two more times with the same reagents but couldn't duplicate the exact condition. Got a couple of pops and rapid burning but no explosion. Explosion of the thermite powder = not good for motor starting.

Soooooo... You play with igniters just be careful. The risks are manageable especially with the commercial kits. Kurt
 
Buddy and I used to have issues like that too, try a different brand of batteries! Made a day and night difference! I know it sounds weird, but even Estes will tell you to try certain batteries, and it works.
 
Hi Again Beano!

I thought I'd also add some sources for cheaper ignitors in case you're finding them pricey by you:

Amazon (ships free with Prime as an "Add-on" item or find alt seller for a bit more, but ships free) $4.19 #2302 Solar Starter pack of 6
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G925HY2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

ACSupply (sells Estes items for 40% off list price...caution must be taken since this can lead to you purchasing a lot of things - you've been warned) item is at the bottom listed as #2302 Solar Starter pack of 6 = $3.29 but you have to pay for shipping:
https://www.acsupplyco.com/estes/engines.htm

You can also see if a local chain hobby store sells the item and also offers % off coupons. The Hobby Lobby in my area does this and I've used the coupon to buy the nicer ignitors (Sonic Ignitors - packs of 4 for a bit more than the Solar Starter 6 packs).

Happy Launching!
 
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Buddy and I used to have issues like that too, try a different brand of batteries! Made a day and night difference! I know it sounds weird, but even Estes will tell you to try certain batteries, and it works.

Agreed! I was fizzling igniters until I put a good Duracell 9V in my launch controller.
 
An ignition failure, where the igniter burns but does not light the propellant, can leave a thin carbon coating on the propellant grain. This can keep the igniter from touching the propellant causing another misfire. When I have a misfire, with a burned igniter, I replace the igniter and try again. If it misfires a second time I replace the motor. The misfired motor goes into a Ziploc bag. When I get home, I use a 1/8" drill bit to clean the carbon coating off of the propellant. THE DRILL BIT IS NOT IN A DRILL!! Use a sharp bit, very little pressure, and turn it by hand. Two revolutions and the grain is clean. The motor is IDed with a red magic marker an put back in the BP motor box. This has never failed me.

Also get a lawn mower or motorcycle battery for a cheap, but really hot, launch system.
 
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I had a launch recently where I went through three igniter/starters without ignition. I pulled the third burned igniter and looked in the hole and saw the grey of the nozzle covering everything. Stuffed a small Phillips head screwdriver in it and gave a few twists until the powder falling out changed from grey to black. Stuck a new igniter in and it launched with no problem.

Lesson learned: I now look up the nozzle to be sure it's clear. Even if clear, give a couple twists of the screwdriver to be sure. In addition, I pull apart the igniter/starter leads slightly (between tape and "pyrogen") to ensure no shorts. Then I stuff the igniter/starter in and while pressing it in with one hand to ensure contact I press in the igniter. Obviously done outside the rocket.

Haven't had a failure, even with the new starters, since clearing the nozzle on every launch.
 
I do what Kyle does, plus I go the old fashioned route and use a small wadded up tissue, placed between the igniter wires, and poked up into the nozzle. I see too many kids shorting out the igniters when using the Estes plastic plugs.
Have never had a failure doing it that way...
 
The key to ignition is energy transfer.

If you have an Estes Igniter, it has black pyrogen on the tip and when the tiny wire under the pyrogen heats up - even for a short time - the pyrogen will ignite and generate more heat via chemical reaction creating sparks and flame. If it is anywhere near the propellant the heat will be transferred and the propellant will ignite.

If you have an Estes Starter, it only has the tiny wire at the tip covered with a clear-ish coating. The coating will not generate more heat, so the tiny little wire MUST be very close to or touching the propellant AND it must heat up long enough to transfer heat energy to the propellant to ignite it. A common failure of the "Starter" is that the wire will burn in half almost instantly with too much current and it will not generate enough heat energy to ignite the propellant. Once the wire breaks or pops from too much current there is no more circuit and no more heating.

Thicker nichrome wire is better with high current launch systems (like a car battery or other big power source with lots of volts and amps). The thicker wire will heat up and glow red or white hot and "shine" onto the propellant surface, even if there is a small gap. It will melt and burn in half, but not until a LOT of heat energy is generated from the electrical resistance.

So, if Estes Starters are failing for many people, look closely at the power source and maybe you need to use the lower current Estes controller or simply be ready to replace the Starters a lot. I do not recommend crippling a powerful controller/power source with a resistor as that will make clustering with good igniters more difficult as well as making composite igniters that require 12 volts and lots of amps not work well.

I use hundreds of 30, 31 and 32 gauge nichrome wire igniters/starters that are simply looped on a paper clip. They work great with the club power supply (car battery).
 
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The key to ignition is energy transfer.

If you have an Estes Igniter, it has black pyrogen on the tip and when the tiny wire under the pyrogen heats up - even for a short time - the pyrogen will ignite and generate more heat via chemical reaction creating sparks and flame. If it is anywhere near the propellant the heat will be transferred and the propellant will ignite.

If you have an Estes Starter, it only has the tiny wire at the tip covered with a clear-ish coating. The coating will not generate more heat, so the tiny little wire MUST be very close to or touching the propellant AND it must heat up long enough to transfer heat energy to the propellant to ignite it. A common failure of the "Starter" is that the wire will burn in half almost instantly with too much current and it will not generate enough heat energy to ignite the propellant. Once the wire breaks or pops from too much current there is no more circuit and no more heating.

Thicker nichrome wire is better with high current launch systems (like a car battery or other big power source with lots of volts and amps). The thicker wire will heat up and glow red or white hot and "shine" onto the propellant surface, even if there is a small gap. It will melt and burn in half, but not until a LOT of heat energy is generated from the electrical resistance.

So, if Estes Starters are failing for many people, look closely at the power source and maybe you need to use the lower current Estes controller or simply be ready to replace the Starters a lot. I do not recommend crippling a powerful controller/power source with a resistor as that will make clustering with good igniters more difficult as well as making composite igniters that require 12 volts and lots of amps not work well.

I use hundreds of 30, 31 and 32 gauge nichrome wire igniters/starters that are simply looped on a paper clip. They work great with the club power supply (car battery).


I clicked on the file and got nothing.
 
Most of the replies have made good comments on this problem.
Shreadvector is right on about the Estes "Starters" the Very thin Nichrome bridge wire without pyrogen burn through very quickly. IT is of utmost importance the starter head be in good contact with the propellant and firmly held there until ignition.
As several have suggested the old "Wadding Ball-Masking tape" retainer method does a very good job of holding the igniter or Starter head against the propellant a good deal better then the provided plastic plugs.

Which every controller your using Good, Well charged battery or batteries are critical to reliable motor starts. Personally I switch over every Hand Held controller to use an external 16/2 wire drop about 6 feet long with 30amp battery clips. Purchase a 19.00 or less 12volt 7amp rechargeable gel-cell battery for very reliable every time ignition. Pick-up a 12volt 7amp/hr or better Gel-Cell at your local Hobby shop or at just about any of the on-line Hobby stores for under 20.00 bucks. They can be recharged with just about any 120/12volt 500ma to 1amp Wall pack transformer by replacing the end plug with a couple alligator clips. (Note! the Stripped white is always the Positive + side).

Shread mentioned using several gauges of bare Nichrome wire as Ignitors. I've been using mainly 30ga NiChrome wire for igniters for almost 50year. Bare Nichrome was the original igniters back in the late 50's and 60's long before any pyrogen was added. As mentioned a simple loop around a Pen point, paper clip or simply folding in half as long as the legs do not touch work perfectly on any single motor ignition application.

Another issue is Bad Igniters straight from the package. I haven't used many of the new Estes "Starters" but in the very first pack a purchased just to try I found one with no continuity right out of the package. I've also found numerous Estes solar igniters (pyrogen tipped) that were also Bad right out of the bag or motor package.
Because of this I built a little "Cheap" Continuity Checker to test each igniter before and After I install them in my motors. This little gadget works on all but extremely low current igniters like electric matches. It does work well on Centuri Q2g2 igniter however:)

Gel-Cell Charger-b_HarborFrt 12-15V Charger_04-12-02.jpg

Quest Pistol Grip controller-d-sm_3pic page_10-04-08.JPG

MM Igniters-a3_MM igniters &Q2-type a&b_00-06.jpg

MgAp & AlAp Igniters-c-sm_2pic pg_01-13-07.JPG

Estes Nichrome-pyrogen Igniters-c_2pic Pg_11-12-06.jpg
 
before going through all that bs, try a good battery, here is straight from estes if you have a 9V one..


9 Volt BatteryFirst of all, my apologies if this reply reads like a auto response because it sort of is as I have written this same reply a number of times. So if you'll be patient and read though this knowing that it was originally written and sent to a number of other people with the same issue perhaps we can narrow down what might be causing your launching issues. From what I read of your posting, I can almost 100 percent guarantee that you are not getting enough “current” to the starters and they are not getting hot enough to ignite the motors. And since I’ve had to explain to others, in almost every case this lack of available current is the direct result of not using a powerful enough 9V alkaline battery. I have talked with a large segment of consumers that are of the opinion that all 9V batteries are created the same…which simply isn’t so. I’ve also had consumers purchase the least expensive battery they could (often referred to as HD batteries, but they utilize a Zinc-Carbon chemistry) and they simply don’t have enough power to ignite our starters. So if you would, please read this the balance of this reply and see if what I suggest doesn’t provide a better launching experience. …and one more thing…I’ve sent this email to several consumers over the past few weeks and I’ve received a very high number of replies that with the battery change as suggested below, the customers had successful launches. However, if you do as I suggest and the launch controller still doesn’t work, let me know and we’ll try something else. I also wanted to let you know that I have launched literally hundreds of rockets using the little orange 9V controller (called the Astron II Launch Controller) here at the rocket ranch with a quality brand 9V alkaline battery and the only time I’ve had any issue with a launch failure has been when I’ve not inserted the starter into the nozzle of the rocket engine correctly or when I’ve tried to launch to many rockets without changing the battery. I’m not trying to make excuses, just telling you that the launch system that uses our 9V launch controller and our starters do work as designed.


Now for some background. One of the first things we need to advise you of is that our “starters” have been manufactured in the same manner for over 40 years, which equals quite literally millions of igniters/starters. Until about two years ago they all contained a pyrogen on the tip of the starter (then called igniters) that aided in the ignition of the model rocket engine even when the batteries were of low power output or weak from disuse. However, due to a Federal law that’s been on the books since the early 70’s, we had to remove that pyrogen tip and now our starters are coated with a type of white glue that holds the bridge wire (the thin little wire at the top that glows and gets hot enough to ignite the propellant) and without the pyrogen on the tip, it can take the starter a little longer to ignite the model rocket engine because there isn’t any extra “oomph” on the tip of the igniter. When we had the pyrogen tipped igniters, ignition was usually much quicker than it is today without the pyrogen, but if properly inserted into the nozzle and with a good strong battery in the launch controller, the engine will ignite….it almost has to.


The second bit of technical information to pass along is that our starters require at least 6V and 2.5 amps of current to get adequately hot enough to ignite our model rocket engines. Unfortunately, not all 9V batteries are created equal and through a series of battery tests we have found that even when a battery manufacturer advertise their batteries as “alkaline”, not all alkaline batteries are created equal. By way of example, I recently needed to test some 9V batteries for inclusion in a launch set we are looking to develop. To that end, I’ve been testing a few different brands of batteries including a leading manufacturer (Rayovac). We obtained 2 different sample sets of Rayovac batteries, both of which were advertised as 9V alkaline, only to discover that they each put out significantly different amounts of power. The first sample I tested is called a Rayovac 9V Alkaline Battery and looks like any other rectangle shaped 9V battery. The other sample is a called Rayovac Ultra Pro and looks almost identical to the first one except for the color of the battery case (one has some blue accent, the other black accent). I attempted to use both of these 9V batteries for a few days launching various model rockets and while the Rayovac “Alkaline” 9V can make our igniter glow and discolor the white glue used on the tip of the starter, it does not provide enough current (only delivers approximately 1.5 amps) to actually ignite the propellant and I did not have any successful launches. On the other hand, when I installed the Rayovac Ultra Pro I notice a major difference in power output (it delivers over 2.7 amps) and can ignite a model rocket engine every single time – usually in less than 1-2 seconds. And while they both are advertised as Alkaline batteries and they even look alike, they certainly do not perform alike...but the Rayovac 9V Alkaline is about a dollar cheaper than the Ultra Pro, but it isn't up to the task we need for igniting a model rocket engine.


My point to all of this is that the circuit design of any of our model rocket launch controllers is a fairly simple design without a lot of area’s (components) that can fail nor is the circuit so complex as to be unreliable. We have learned over the years that we’ve been in business, that keeping the launch system as uncomplicated as possible yields more successful launches, which hopefully keeps our customers happy as well. And usually when a consumers has a problem with launching our rockets, especially with the new starters, we can trace the problem back to the source of power…that is the battery. However, I have had a few launch controllers that just did not work and perhaps yours is one of them. But if you would, please try a high quality, name brand of super alkaline 9V battery such as any of those suggested below and see if you don’t have more successful launches. And if you need some extra starters to make up for the ones you wasted, send me a shipping address and I’ll send you some replacements to try with a different battery in your launch controller.

So please check the battery you are using first and if it's an HD or some kind of off brand battery, please try one of the following batteries:
• Fuji EnviroMAX (HOME DEPOT)
• Rayovac Ultra Pro (WALMART/AMAZON)
• Energizer Max (HOME DEPOT/WALMART)
• Eveready Copper Top (AMAZON/WALMART/BEST BUY)
 
I have no idea what happened to the attachment.

A good powerful battery may lead to failure.

I explained this.

If the thin tiny bridge wire pops or burns in half super fast it will not generate enough heat energy to ignite the propellant.

You MUST have a heat source that can generate heat long enough and strong enough to ignite the propellant.
 
I have had the same exact experience.

I was able to fix it with a new CONTROLLER and BRAND new BATTERYS !!

its a battery problem mostly.

Having changed over to a 12 volt launch system, I have had 0 ignitor failures !

Tom
 
have you tried the powerful battery with Starters rather than Igniters?


I have had the same exact experience.

I was able to fix it with a new CONTROLLER and BRAND new BATTERYS !!

its a battery problem mostly.

Having changed over to a 12 volt launch system, I have had 0 ignitor failures !

Tom
 
As I noted, I prefer a car battery but I know this can cause problems with tiny wires that "pop" without generating heat energy and the new Starters.

I have no idea what happened to the attachment.

A good powerful battery may lead to failure.

I explained this.

If the thin tiny bridge wire pops or burns in half super fast it will not generate enough heat energy to ignite the propellant.

You MUST have a heat source that can generate heat long enough and strong enough to ignite the propellant.
 
I've gone through a few packs of the "starters." I haven't noticed any difference at all. This has been using both a Pratt 12V launch box and a standard Estes controller. I can say that when I was a kid, my misfire rate was about 30%, with haphazard placement and whatever batteries I could scrounge. As an adult with more careful technique and good batteries, my misfire rate is about 5%.

So...I guess just pay attention to insertion technique and use good batteries- That's my 2 cents
 
So...I guess just pay attention to insertion technique and use good batteries- That's my 2 cents

Agreed! Just as I noted in my early posting. While I thought a lot of the other tips, tricks and additional info were extremely helpful, I figured this is the best general advice given that the poster is completely new here, listed in the "Beginners & Educations Programs" forum, and stated "My son and I recently started launching rockets together with an Estes RTF package". So while a lot of the other igniter tips were great (and I'll be using some, thanks!), I think they may be a bit overwhelming for a neophyte rocketeer. :wink:
 
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