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Just how healthy are our vendors and MR industry in general?
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Agreed +1
patelldp
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We cannot forget that the rocketry market is just a subset of the overall economy. There's two ends to this spectrum with a whole lot of vendors in the middle. Apogee has many products that sell higher than "MSRP" but it's consistent and they provide a ton of value outside of product offerings. Whether or not you use that value is up to you, but it's there and they pay for it with higher prices that people seemingly pay.
On the other end you have the vendors that tank price regularly or on one day out of the year. They can do this because of the volume that it secures and they aren't providing any resources of value to the market outside of their products. What this does is drive the behavior that if you're patient and you're willing to let a sale dictate what you buy, you can get something at a ludicrous price. Some discounts are greater than 50% off MSRP! These sales are arbitrary in nature, and I urge you to ask for these prices in July or on a Friday and see what the vendors say.
So I ask you...what is the real price of that kit/motor/etc.? If you get pissed at Apogee for charging above MSRP consistently all year round, you should be pissed at these other vendors for raping and pillaging the other 364 days out of the year or the other 6 days of the week. My point is this: single-day blowouts hurt the hobby more than they help. Many people build and fly these kits, but a lot of people also stash them away with hopes of selling them for fair market value later down the road. What they do is cause other vendors with favorable cost positions to follow suit while the smaller vendors (usually ones that drag their stock to your local launches) shake their heads and throw up their hands.
How healthy are they? I really don't know. Many have RV's, some have sports cars, and some show up in Ford Windstar's with cardboard boxes. Even then, material goods aren't a great barometer of health. I hear that a great majority of our vendors thrive at launches or during big sales and suffer in-between. Vendors that have day jobs and sell rocket stuff on the side are usually the healthiest. They typically know what they want to charge for their product, didn't overexpose themselves to get the raw materials, and are willing to be patient to sell their product. A lot of them fly rockets, too.
On the other end you have the vendors that tank price regularly or on one day out of the year. They can do this because of the volume that it secures and they aren't providing any resources of value to the market outside of their products. What this does is drive the behavior that if you're patient and you're willing to let a sale dictate what you buy, you can get something at a ludicrous price. Some discounts are greater than 50% off MSRP! These sales are arbitrary in nature, and I urge you to ask for these prices in July or on a Friday and see what the vendors say.
So I ask you...what is the real price of that kit/motor/etc.? If you get pissed at Apogee for charging above MSRP consistently all year round, you should be pissed at these other vendors for raping and pillaging the other 364 days out of the year or the other 6 days of the week. My point is this: single-day blowouts hurt the hobby more than they help. Many people build and fly these kits, but a lot of people also stash them away with hopes of selling them for fair market value later down the road. What they do is cause other vendors with favorable cost positions to follow suit while the smaller vendors (usually ones that drag their stock to your local launches) shake their heads and throw up their hands.
How healthy are they? I really don't know. Many have RV's, some have sports cars, and some show up in Ford Windstar's with cardboard boxes. Even then, material goods aren't a great barometer of health. I hear that a great majority of our vendors thrive at launches or during big sales and suffer in-between. Vendors that have day jobs and sell rocket stuff on the side are usually the healthiest. They typically know what they want to charge for their product, didn't overexpose themselves to get the raw materials, and are willing to be patient to sell their product. A lot of them fly rockets, too.
Donaldsrockets
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Agreed 110%
It is getting harder and harder to find a place to fly these days. Most parks prohibit the launching of model rockets without a permit which is nearly impossible to get in most cases. Most schools have perimeter fences that are closed and locked when no one is around as well.
I recently lost a flying site that I'd been flying from for 10+ years although it was no fault on my part. The land was sold off. I then tried to get permission to fly from a 40+ acre soccer complex and was promptly turned down. However, that was probably a blessing in disguise when I saw in a photo of all the potential rocket-eating trees and light towers around.
Just makes me pissed that these paranoid parks people and county commissioners obviously want to make criminals out of innocent hobbyists. After reading the park ordinances which are completely riddled with don't do this, don't do that, etc, it made me think of what actually CAN be done in the parks without upsetting the park staff.
The search continues.
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Binder Design
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The thing that hurts the vendor diversity in the hobby the most is when new people come in with tons of energy and go into business with the mindset of bashing the high prices of everybody else. They don't have overhead and they undervalue their labor because their new found hobby is just so much fun and they want everyone in the hobby to be their best friend. They'll do this for a year or two until they realize it is no longer fun and resembles work, but by then the damage is done. A few of these people actually keep a lot of your money without delivering product when they decide to give up. They'll have active websites and paypal accounts, but won't fill orders. So in the end, they've damaged the long term vendors and customers.
These are the people that are disruptive to the hobby and it's unpredictable.
These are the people that are disruptive to the hobby and it's unpredictable.
boatgeek
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I'd go to your local public library. They have the space for basic rocket building and the insurance of a large organization for work done on site. For the launch, NAR membership covers you. In many areas, I think the librarians would be happy to host if they have a volunteer who can do the rocket stuff. It's good for them too--brings people into the building and shows their relevance in the Internet age. This doesn't resolve the issue of parents bringing kids to launches, though.
For the GOMRAKS crowd: https://xkcd.com/1227/
My daughter's high school (granted, a somewhat nerdy place for a variety of reasons) has a robotics team with 50+ active members and a rocketry team with 10-20 depending on the year. I hope to expand rocketry, but that's another story! They get nothing directly from the school other than space in the auto shop. The PTA gives each $1000 a year, as they do with several other clubs (debate, FCCLA, etc.). There are teachers who are advisers to the two clubs, but they are mostly figureheads, with parents doing most of the work of organizing the kids and moving the process forward. As mentioned above, STEM programs are popular and relatively easy to fund if you can get into the right donors. Robotics gets tens of thousands of dollars in donations, and Rocketry is going for the big money this year after a good season at TARC.
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Jolly Logic's business is growing, but we're small and have somewhat unique products, so that's not a very useful gauge of the overall industry. Estes/COX, Aerotech/Quest, or a reseller like Apogee could better judge the overall industry. The recent consolidations suggest "not great growth."
Having worked at a prestigious consulting company and at a variety of tech companies over the years, I will say that rocketry does have a tendency toward weak business practices, especially with regards to pricing. That's not unique. There are plenty of industries like that, especially when the products become more commoditized. Every industry faces these pressures; some resist them, and some really give in to them. Some practices which sound like good ideas (volume pricing, bulk buying, special promotions) are actually signs of these weak business practices.
Here's one simple example. Suppose a manufacturer of $25 motors who normally sells these motors for $20 to resellers offers a special additional 25% discount if a reseller buys 1000 motors at once. If a reseller takes this deal, they will have incredible pressure to sell these 1000 motors, because they laid out $15,000 all at once to buy them. Then let's say this reseller gets in a pinch for money, looks at the big stack of motors and decides to "pass the savings along to buyers" by discounting the motors to $16. You might say, "Well, that's a huge win for everyone! The customer pays $16 for a $25 motor (oh yeah!!!), the reseller still makes money, and the motor manufacturer sells 1000 motors."
Well, no, it's not good. Here's why:
1. In the Internet age, resellers who bought their motors for $20 see their sales instantly dry up, and are stuck with inventory they can't sell
2. The reseller with the $16 deal sells out quickly
3. Customers complain when they place orders for $16 and are told "We are out of stock."
4. Customers now expect that these motors "should" cost $16. Paying more seems dumb. Charging more seems like taking advantage of people(!!!)
5. The new expected price becomes $16. Some people will wait all year for that price to come back around.
6. Some resellers decide to stop carrying this type of motor, because they can't afford to buy $15,000 worth each time.
7. Running a business that makes $1 on a sale of $16 is hard/impossible. You have to stop offering returns (No Returns!), replacements, friendly personal support, free shipping. You have to cut every corner you can.
8. The manufacturer begins noticing that reseller accounts are disappearing, and the discounting resellers start demanding even more discounts, because they control most sales now
9. Price pressure reduces the incentives and resources for new product development
You end up with an unprofitable, slow-to-innovate industry rife with frustrating characteristics, such as:
1. Why don't I get treated well when I buy stuff? I'm a paying customer! Where's my free shipping? Why can't I just return this?
2. Why do I have to search so hard to find the best prices? (I know if search a little harder, I can find a KILLER price somewhere...)
3. Why is everything made so cheaply?
4. Why is everything made in China?
5. Why aren't there lots of companies creating new exciting products?
You might think all of this is inevitable, but it's not. Manufacturers can and should set a price for their goods and require everyone to sell for that price. There's a common misconception that this is illegal or bad for consumers, but of course it's not. It's what Apple does. It's what Jolly Logic does.
We regularly get contacted by folks who want a volume price break. And we always say No. And if we find a reseller advertising our products for below our MSRP, we drop them. Having seen that cycle start up in other industries, we know it's unhealthy and it comes at the expense of other resellers, so we stop it right there.
Here's the result of our no-discounting policy:
1. Every reseller knows that they already offer the lowest price.
2. When a reseller buys product, they can be assured it won't lose its value.
3. Customers don't need to waste time shopping around. They can buy wherever it's most convenient, wherever they get great service, great selection.
4. Since we thoughtfully set the price at a point that allows us some R&D money, we can continue to work on new, exciting products.
To anyone who reads this and dismisses it by saying, "Ugh. This guy's just justifying his greedy sky-high prices," I would say, do this: buy an Estes altimeter. Find it on sale somewhere. Enjoy its delightful Chinese-engineered quirkiness. If you need some quick personal attention a few days before a contest, let me know how THAT goes. If you're waiting for Estes to move from offshore-knockoffs to innovation, I'd suggest you settle in with some popcorn, because it might be awhile.
That having been said, Estes *still* represents the magic of science during my childhood, along with Tom Swift. I treasure those memories. Sad sigh...
Having worked at a prestigious consulting company and at a variety of tech companies over the years, I will say that rocketry does have a tendency toward weak business practices, especially with regards to pricing. That's not unique. There are plenty of industries like that, especially when the products become more commoditized. Every industry faces these pressures; some resist them, and some really give in to them. Some practices which sound like good ideas (volume pricing, bulk buying, special promotions) are actually signs of these weak business practices.
Here's one simple example. Suppose a manufacturer of $25 motors who normally sells these motors for $20 to resellers offers a special additional 25% discount if a reseller buys 1000 motors at once. If a reseller takes this deal, they will have incredible pressure to sell these 1000 motors, because they laid out $15,000 all at once to buy them. Then let's say this reseller gets in a pinch for money, looks at the big stack of motors and decides to "pass the savings along to buyers" by discounting the motors to $16. You might say, "Well, that's a huge win for everyone! The customer pays $16 for a $25 motor (oh yeah!!!), the reseller still makes money, and the motor manufacturer sells 1000 motors."
Well, no, it's not good. Here's why:
1. In the Internet age, resellers who bought their motors for $20 see their sales instantly dry up, and are stuck with inventory they can't sell
2. The reseller with the $16 deal sells out quickly
3. Customers complain when they place orders for $16 and are told "We are out of stock."
4. Customers now expect that these motors "should" cost $16. Paying more seems dumb. Charging more seems like taking advantage of people(!!!)
5. The new expected price becomes $16. Some people will wait all year for that price to come back around.
6. Some resellers decide to stop carrying this type of motor, because they can't afford to buy $15,000 worth each time.
7. Running a business that makes $1 on a sale of $16 is hard/impossible. You have to stop offering returns (No Returns!), replacements, friendly personal support, free shipping. You have to cut every corner you can.
8. The manufacturer begins noticing that reseller accounts are disappearing, and the discounting resellers start demanding even more discounts, because they control most sales now
9. Price pressure reduces the incentives and resources for new product development
You end up with an unprofitable, slow-to-innovate industry rife with frustrating characteristics, such as:
1. Why don't I get treated well when I buy stuff? I'm a paying customer! Where's my free shipping? Why can't I just return this?
2. Why do I have to search so hard to find the best prices? (I know if search a little harder, I can find a KILLER price somewhere...)
3. Why is everything made so cheaply?
4. Why is everything made in China?
5. Why aren't there lots of companies creating new exciting products?
You might think all of this is inevitable, but it's not. Manufacturers can and should set a price for their goods and require everyone to sell for that price. There's a common misconception that this is illegal or bad for consumers, but of course it's not. It's what Apple does. It's what Jolly Logic does.
We regularly get contacted by folks who want a volume price break. And we always say No. And if we find a reseller advertising our products for below our MSRP, we drop them. Having seen that cycle start up in other industries, we know it's unhealthy and it comes at the expense of other resellers, so we stop it right there.
Here's the result of our no-discounting policy:
1. Every reseller knows that they already offer the lowest price.
2. When a reseller buys product, they can be assured it won't lose its value.
3. Customers don't need to waste time shopping around. They can buy wherever it's most convenient, wherever they get great service, great selection.
4. Since we thoughtfully set the price at a point that allows us some R&D money, we can continue to work on new, exciting products.
To anyone who reads this and dismisses it by saying, "Ugh. This guy's just justifying his greedy sky-high prices," I would say, do this: buy an Estes altimeter. Find it on sale somewhere. Enjoy its delightful Chinese-engineered quirkiness. If you need some quick personal attention a few days before a contest, let me know how THAT goes. If you're waiting for Estes to move from offshore-knockoffs to innovation, I'd suggest you settle in with some popcorn, because it might be awhile.
That having been said, Estes *still* represents the magic of science during my childhood, along with Tom Swift. I treasure those memories. Sad sigh...
What are you talking about? Seriously? I've got no less than 3 parks locally I can fly LPR no questions asked, and barely have anyone ask questions when I fly AP F's and G's, and it's all positive. ZERO trouble.... And I live in densely populated suburbs around Buffalo NY. Hell I fire off saucers in my backyard.
Lets bring up the dark gorilla in the corner: Black Friday/Saturday is TERRIBLE for everyone in rocketry.
It forces all vendors to have stupid sales one one day of the year. To do this... they have to raise prices the rest for the year. If they don't do this.... They get cleaned out because the only time anyone buys a kit anymore.... is on sale.
It's great if you only want to cut tube once a year....and mail it all out over the next few months. (Yes, I'm talking about wildman.... I have the balls to say it). But if you've a customer who wants to buy a kit any other day of the year..... You're SOL. I dislike this as a customer. Even Madcow has been dragged into the game. 2.6" Screech, "$170 retail" $90 on sale once a year. Like I'm going to buy it any other day of the year. I'd much rather prefer to pay say, $120 whenever I want. (and I'd likely buy more overall this way) $600 5.5" pike? $300 once a year. Seriously? This is getting stupid. 3" Wildman? $100 on sale, 285 the rest of the year.
I get the bulk cutting and other arguments. But it's gotten to the point you can't justify buying a kit off BF/BS sales. and that's silly. At Least RW is throwing a monkey wrench into the whole mess with the weds sales. I just wish the kits where better thought out, and would fit the longest motor in a given size. the scarab not taking a 1200 case is so sad.
It forces all vendors to have stupid sales one one day of the year. To do this... they have to raise prices the rest for the year. If they don't do this.... They get cleaned out because the only time anyone buys a kit anymore.... is on sale.
It's great if you only want to cut tube once a year....and mail it all out over the next few months. (Yes, I'm talking about wildman.... I have the balls to say it). But if you've a customer who wants to buy a kit any other day of the year..... You're SOL. I dislike this as a customer. Even Madcow has been dragged into the game. 2.6" Screech, "$170 retail" $90 on sale once a year. Like I'm going to buy it any other day of the year. I'd much rather prefer to pay say, $120 whenever I want. (and I'd likely buy more overall this way) $600 5.5" pike? $300 once a year. Seriously? This is getting stupid. 3" Wildman? $100 on sale, 285 the rest of the year.
I get the bulk cutting and other arguments. But it's gotten to the point you can't justify buying a kit off BF/BS sales. and that's silly. At Least RW is throwing a monkey wrench into the whole mess with the weds sales. I just wish the kits where better thought out, and would fit the longest motor in a given size. the scarab not taking a 1200 case is so sad.
Hi Dave
I will stand up for myself here I am not afraid either.
If Black Friday/ Saturday is so bad how come you have participated ( Dark Star ) It became bad when ?
You are making no sense you have a sale once a year to raise the prices the rest of the year ? the Wildman dual deploy has been $285 since day one we never raised the price.BTW the one that is $285 has never been $100.
If you don't do this you don't get cleaned out ?
If you want a rocket that the 1200 case fits try a Wildman Jr. $125 every day with plenty of extra's( stainless steel welded eyebolts ,etc.).
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jeff_j_black
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I like Apogee service and dependability. That comes at a price. I do shop lower prices and buy from several vendors. But when nobody else has it in stock and I need it quick, Apogee.
Fair enough Tim. I've purchased many kits from you. Every one was on sale. I LOVE every one of them, by the way. What I don't like, is having to wait for a sale to do it. I'd happily pay a bit more to be able to do it any time of the year....and I'd likely buy more often. We both win. Right now, I can't really look at any of your kits knowing what you'll unload them for on BS.
Jr is on the list.... waiting on a good sale
I think it's also important to add I don't think you're a bad guy here. At LDRS I saw a noob mid life crisis guy in the back of the trailer full of heaven. I've watched vendors fleece the **** out of those guys.... sell them everything under the sun. You set him up with a good AT kit and some SU motors. I'm not saying The Wildman is evil.... But the one day a year sales are very limiting to customers....
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And before y all bust out the torches, I'm not saying kill the sales.
I'm saying keep the yearly prices lower so you can still reasonably buy whenever. Right now it's priced out that anyone buying outside a sale is an idiot.
I'm saying keep the yearly prices lower so you can still reasonably buy whenever. Right now it's priced out that anyone buying outside a sale is an idiot.
Donaldsrockets
Well-Known Member
Man, I wish I were this lucky.
Your city council must be really laid back. Ours are obviously a bunch of anti-fun you know what!!!
True. Though 285 is steep for a 3" DD kit. Even with all the hardware. I'm saying it was set high on day one to account for BS sales. The wildman that went on sale for 100 was the HEDD...so add the cost of another 10" of body, a 22" payload and a coupler? not $185. I don't mean to nitpick on details here, but the point is everyday prices are high to the point of inhibiting sales. How many people buy ultimates at full price?
I just wish the every day prices weren't inflated to make the BF/BS sales look so unstopably good. I'm ok with paying more, but I'd like the option of buying kits in june without feeling like I'm getting run over. As it stands, very few kits fit that bill. As I mentioned, many vendors do this. I'd love a 2.6" Tomach to match my 2.6" screech. I got the screech for 90 (with all hardware and a sled) Today a Tomach would cost 170. I've got to wait and see for BF? Irritating as a customer.
Just so we are straight you are looking at this backwards.
My everyday prices are not inflated, I just take a large hit for 6 hours 1 day a year to stay busy during my normal down time.
a dual deploy is $285 a single is $185 the difference in fiberglass parts (tube coupler bulk plates) alone is over $75 plus all of the cords and other extras.
Start adding up the parts prices and you will see exactly where my prices come from. Then you can guess who sets those prices .
So if you want to complain about inflated prices I think you are looking in the wrong place.
About the Ultimate's, enough.
Binder Design
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I disrupt the market. Sometimes I run a BF/BS sale and sometimes I don't. Same with our holiday special. I like to be unpredictable. So if someone is waiting all year long for a certain kit to go on sale, they might be out of luck. You do this enough times and people stop waiting for a sale that never comes and instead just pay me what it's worth.
Zeus-cat
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Great post John.
I used to work in an industry that sold spare parts to airlines. A large, very well known airline came to us one day and demanded a discount saying that they were our biggest customer (they were). We agreed if they agreed to buy only spare parts for our products from us. They said yes. Every year they demanded a bigger and bigger discount. We always said yes (the CEO didn't have a backbone).
Then one day the VP in charge of spare parts told us to start directing scarce spare parts to every other customer before we serviced our biggest customer. Our big customer had squeezed our profits to the point that we were making almost no money selling to them. It made much more sense to sell to anyone else before we shipped a part to them. They came in the following year and demanded an even bigger discount. We told them not only were they not getting a bigger discount, but they weren't getting ANY discount. We rolled the prices back to what everyone else was paying. They were furious, but we had to do it for us AND them. It made no sense to sell stuff to them if we couldn't make money doing it.
And they were cheating on us too. They routinely sent parts to us for repair that they had agreed that they would only buy from us, but they weren't parts that we had made. Jerks.
Here are some of my opinions and hopefully no one takes offense (make rockets, not war!)
-I think it's a great thing if the retailers are doing well, selling more and investing in more. This is great news...much better than hearing about one seller after another closing. A healthy industry offers the buyers more choices and opportunities to get what they want at lower prices. I'm likely responsible for driving their sales with all the purchases I've been making!
-Selling is hard...don't just consider materials cost. An egg or potato is less than a dollar, but to cook it takes time, work, a stove/oven, gas, storefront, etc. There is more than just raw materials cost. I was an Ebay PowerSeller a decade ago and I would spend hours finding the correct box to ship an item...no kidding...hours. There is also loss...I give high kudos to retailers who have excellent customer service and will ship replacement parts if missing/lost/damaged/screwed up by me, etc. Just because they have a crazy sale from time to time doesn't mean that they can survive by always selling so low and I appreciate it when they do. I really, really appreciate it. :clap:
-Some sellers have low prices, but then their customer service and inventory is terrible. Others charge more, but have excellent customer service and there are some that even have both. After having month+ dealings with low-price sellers who don't have what I ordered in stock, I'm thinking the few bucks I've saved really wasn't worth it.
BTW - I have a Marketing Management degree...however it doesn't mean I always know what I'm talking about. :wink:
-I think it's a great thing if the retailers are doing well, selling more and investing in more. This is great news...much better than hearing about one seller after another closing. A healthy industry offers the buyers more choices and opportunities to get what they want at lower prices. I'm likely responsible for driving their sales with all the purchases I've been making!
-Selling is hard...don't just consider materials cost. An egg or potato is less than a dollar, but to cook it takes time, work, a stove/oven, gas, storefront, etc. There is more than just raw materials cost. I was an Ebay PowerSeller a decade ago and I would spend hours finding the correct box to ship an item...no kidding...hours. There is also loss...I give high kudos to retailers who have excellent customer service and will ship replacement parts if missing/lost/damaged/screwed up by me, etc. Just because they have a crazy sale from time to time doesn't mean that they can survive by always selling so low and I appreciate it when they do. I really, really appreciate it. :clap:
-Some sellers have low prices, but then their customer service and inventory is terrible. Others charge more, but have excellent customer service and there are some that even have both. After having month+ dealings with low-price sellers who don't have what I ordered in stock, I'm thinking the few bucks I've saved really wasn't worth it.
BTW - I have a Marketing Management degree...however it doesn't mean I always know what I'm talking about. :wink:
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I run a "Black Weekend" sale every year...
In my mind, and I've said during the sale,,
Thank you all for all of the business and all of the orders all year long..
I appreciate very much each and every order I get...
This sale to me, is my way of giving back,, it's a tangible thank you...
On each order during the sale I hear a big thank you,,
Makes me feel good,, like I'm helping. ..
I also patronize Wildman every BS sale...
Why not...
This is a really small niche we have in this hobby / sport...
I really can't see faulting a vendor for having a sale...
Teddy
In my mind, and I've said during the sale,,
Thank you all for all of the business and all of the orders all year long..
I appreciate very much each and every order I get...
This sale to me, is my way of giving back,, it's a tangible thank you...
On each order during the sale I hear a big thank you,,
Makes me feel good,, like I'm helping. ..
I also patronize Wildman every BS sale...
Why not...
This is a really small niche we have in this hobby / sport...
I really can't see faulting a vendor for having a sale...
Teddy
patelldp
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Post of this era of TRF. Seriously well done...you get it.
I want to see our vendors succeed, but they really need to think about the messages that their pricing sends. Pricing is an art form, influenced by many different factors. Cost is definitely one of them, but if you let your cost dictate where you price a non-commodity item you aren't doing it right. In years past, I didn't think that high power rocket kits could be considered commodities, yet here we are.
Back in the day we had Aerotech, Kosdon, Hawk Mountain, Ellis, Dynacom, LOC Precision, Vulcan, PML, THOY, Binder, even USR. Each product was differentiated through outward appearance, material selection, and quality of workmanship. There was innovation with Through the Wall fins, Qwik-Switch motor mounts, Quantum Tube, CPR recovery, Parachute design, AeroPack retainers, the advent of FWFG, electronics. Some of the innovations I stated weren't popular, but they were attempts. Pricing was favorable and vendors got a good amount of money for their product, as I would expect them to. Especially with Hawk, you paid for a complete kit vs. a collection of parts. Customers were rewarded with a high quality product, and none of them were complaining.
Now, we have a commoditized product. People aren't sure what they're going to buy, but when the sale comes around I can promise you it's going to efficiently use a stick of fiberglass pipe and have a few fins. Maybe that's okay.
My point is this: We know vendors can remain profitable when discounting something 50+%. YOU DIDN'T NEED TO PROVE IT TO US. Preserve price, improve quality, innovate, profit.
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Just curious, is Nov-Feb your "rocket down time" or "real life down time?" In his article, Van Milligan mentioned that his down time is during the summer. His up time is the school year and winter building season. Based on this forum activity, I would agree that winter is the busier time for buying and modeling.
TARC is what he is referring to . I get my fair share of that also but before the holiday sales January and February were my slowest months.
Another thread that I figured would be the way it is, typical for the forum. So people who sell built kits or kits that aren't built at a lower price in the yard sale would be just as guilty as many of you are blaming vendors for their pricing. People selling stuff cheap in the yard sale are hurting our vendors because they are losing that potential business, but people involved in this thread are guilty of doing that? How's that justified? How many of you own or have owned a rocketry business , besides the obvious we are aware of? I never have so I'm not chiming in on their prices or practices. Do you shop at Walmart or a local supermarket? Do you go to the cheaper place because you know they will sell the same product cheaper? Yes, yes you do. Doesn't that hurt the other business because they can't afford to drop a price that low? One gets the business, the other doesn't. To me it makes it more competitive....so next time skip going to the local dollar store to buy a product that costs way cheaper than a local supermarket with the same item.
How about closing this thread, it's going nowhere and it's another reason why myself and many others stay away from here or rarely post anything! It's old!
When's the next sale?
How about closing this thread, it's going nowhere and it's another reason why myself and many others stay away from here or rarely post anything! It's old!
When's the next sale?
Hey, I'll admit I'm wrong if te numbers show it.
What percentage of kits are sold on BS compared to the rest of the year at reg price?
If it's a tiny portion, you're right and I'm over acting. If it's a significant chunk, then it's come to the point that sale isn't supporting a sluggish time, it's depressing the rest of the year and pushing more sales to a lower profit, which, in the spirit of this thread, I think hurts vendor health.
What percentage of kits are sold on BS compared to the rest of the year at reg price?
If it's a tiny portion, you're right and I'm over acting. If it's a significant chunk, then it's come to the point that sale isn't supporting a sluggish time, it's depressing the rest of the year and pushing more sales to a lower profit, which, in the spirit of this thread, I think hurts vendor health.
People seem to have taken the idea I'm trying to bash Tim here. Not my intent. I fly Wildman rockets and intend to buy more. I consider my Darkstar my flagship rocket, and have an extreme I'm building for my L3.
The question. Was, are vendors healthy? I don't think having yearly sales of 50% on current kits is an indication. Of a wal thy industry. I think it's a cutthroat market, and with basically two vendors going at it with a crazy BS sale, and RW cutting prices weekly to just over cost, you're both gutting your day to day sales with customers just waiting for a good sale Over the long haul, it does t pay out as well as a more steady stream of business.
The question. Was, are vendors healthy? I don't think having yearly sales of 50% on current kits is an indication. Of a wal thy industry. I think it's a cutthroat market, and with basically two vendors going at it with a crazy BS sale, and RW cutting prices weekly to just over cost, you're both gutting your day to day sales with customers just waiting for a good sale Over the long haul, it does t pay out as well as a more steady stream of business.
patelldp
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Disagree. In that case it's a finite amount of product (one kit, one built rocket), single time sale. It's not setting precedent from that person for future business, nor is it set on their own precedent. Meaning...if I sell a Broken Arrow XP kit, I haven't sold one before nor have I sold one since, so pretty much any pricing is justified. High price = I value my building skills and you buy that from me, low price = I'm done with it and I want that thing gone.
I do agree that it can hurt vendors because it offsets potential new kit sales. But you'll never get rid of it. Second hand sales are and forever will be part of the marketplace. It's just a subset of the overall market, and it's the job of the supplier to display the value of buying their new over other's used, plain and simple. Vendors could also develop a "used car sales" type strategy too, right?
I'm semi-trying to. My pricing is competitive with the market. My stock is small, I do it when I want and only when I want. When I say I am "semi-trying to," I mean I'm really not but I like the idea of selling a motor case here and there to make a few bucks.
This is all conjecture, so it's a bit hard to respond to and it will be different for everyone. For me, the answer is actually no. I shop at the local Hannaford because it's 1 mile away. I benefit from their sales and am penalized by their regular prices sometimes. But damn it, it's convenient. Others will be different.
I wouldn't close it, it's good conversation. It's something that we are all very, very invested in.
It feels a little dirty to talk about someone else's profits, as my parents told me to never talk salary and whatnot with others. This is all out of concern for the hobby, and it's actually REALLY GOOD FREE ADVICE. Vendors shouldn't have to fight over that last penny. There's a healthy living to be made here.
Market talk is great. It's interesting, intriguing, and enlightening. At the end of the day, vendors are welcome to keep doing what they're doing. To reiterate, everyone should be reading this objectively. If you get emotional about it, you're doing it wrong.
I agree...this is what makes this country so great...you have a choice and you can buy or not buy. If you feel prices are too high, you usually have other choices and given our market economy, if someone is selling for "too much", he won't make much; however if a company is doing well, their prices are apparently acceptable to their customers.
Even though I'm a value hound, I also fully support on-site vendors whenever I can since they are a great service and offer products at the launch as well as support. Sure their prices are higher, but same with a soda/beer at a game or concert. I appreciate their hauling all that stuff out to us knowing that some days they may not make enough for the gas they used.
For some items I've sold on Ebay in the past, the bidding was obscene; however that's what people were willing to pay and both parties were happy in the end. As a side note for those of you hating the prices of hard-to-get/scarce items on Ebay or Amazon, it can actually have a good effect in the end...a high priced item with low supply can encourage competition or send a signal to manufacturers that there is good demand and I think this is possibly one reason the Estes Mercury Redstone got a re-release...great news for many!
Hi Dave,
Actually, I think that waiting to buy stuff only on BF/BS is a great idea...I was already starting to curb purchases to save up for that period; however most people don't or can't do this. I also buy a lot of items "off-season" as well as on clearance and I never think that the people paying full price for those items are "not-smart"
, but instead I think that I'm a saavy shopper who buys wisely. Just like couponing, it's not for everyone, but for those who can do it, they make off very well and in some cases (of couponing) can even get products for free.Best Regards,
Ken
