Just how healthy are our vendors and MR industry in general?

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jhein

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I just read the most recent Apogee newsletter and found this issue very insightful. https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter395.pdf Our hobby is relatively small and we are dependent on a small group of vendors for our "fun".

Using the newsletter as an "Economic Leading Indicator" I would say things are looking good. Almost by definition somebody has to sell at full retail. In my opinion that somebody is Apogee. They don't apologize for this either. If things are growing for them then the industry as a whole appears to be growing.

Tim uses phrases like: "Growing", "Out of floor space", "Adding more employees", "Investing heavliy",etc. A good company doesn't use these words unless they truly believe that things are improving.

The only thing that really concerns me is the "Harley Davidson" problem. https://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-harleydavidson-boomers-analysis-idUSBRE95K0GU20130621 The average age of the Harley consumer has increased dramatically over the last two decades. Harley so far has not been as able to grow the youth market to replace the older market. I see this in rocketry as a lot of you do as well. I am an over 50 BAR. As long as our youth are at least exposed to rocketry there is hope that they too will become a BAR like me.

thoughts?
Jim
 
The only thing that really concerns me is the "Harley Davidson" problem. https://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-harleydavidson-boomers-analysis-idUSBRE95K0GU20130621 The average age of the Harley consumer has increased dramatically over the last two decades. Harley so far has not been as able to grow the youth market to replace the older market.

The Harley market would be a lot younger if their bikes were cheaper. Nothing to be concerned with there. Rocketry will continue to attract younger people as more and more electronic gizmo's come online. I have seen the younger folk much more concerned with the "data" and what the computer said than watching the flight. I think we are in a bit of paradigm shift when it comes to why people are attracted to rocketry but there will always be new coming in, the trick is to get them to stay.
 
I agree completely Jim...
To me it's called paying forward...
I'll be at a Cub scout event this coming Saturday
putting on a static display and doing a build session and then a launch....
Actually,, Radical Rocketeers does this quite often...
Joe D the clubs secretary does most of the organizing...

Teddy
 
I agree getting kids exposed is what we need, and I was so disappointed in our local school when they lost funding for the Rocketry Club. What a bummer.
 
HANDS ON, USING TOOLS, MAKING THINGS, this is what made the country and then we perfected it. The issue isn't just rocketry it is everywhere. It comes from the home and from the current mentors, Dads and Moms, if you cultivate it in the youth they can turn it into whatever excites them. Imagine a day when there are only people to CAD design things and no one to build them or repair them. Our company will be there ready to do it, for a hansom fee of course (just kidding, a reasonable fee).
 
I agree getting kids exposed is what we need, and I was so disappointed in our local school when they lost funding for the Rocketry Club. What a bummer.

I wonder what kind of red tape you would have to wade through to private fund one? You would probably need a teaching degree, or pay a teacher to be present. Does anyone know if NAR has some sort of outreach program or insurance indemnification provision for this? This might be fun to look into.
 
Rad Rocks does 5 maybe 6 scout launches a year, I see it as the adults not wanting to understand how educative rocketry can be. They have no interest in it, its just a day out with the scouts.
Its easier to give the kids a PS4 or a cell phone to amuse their kid till bed time, then to sit down and build a kit together and talk to them.
In 4 years now at 5 launches per, we have NEVER had a scout come to our field to fly. WHY?? cause they need the parent to drive them.
With one group I've seen the same boy twice and he was very interested in learning more, but Dad would not drive the 30 minutes to our field once a month so his boy can fly with us.
Its sad, this year I didn't see him at the packs launch. I asked what happened to him the leader said he dropped out of scouting.

We have a guy that buys kits and goes to the library where Rad Rocks used to have meetings, now its a build session FREE of charge for any kid. Lots of kids come and build, but the parents don't bring them to the field (a mile away) to fly.

I keep hoping one day we'll have so many scouts at our field, that our club members will have to sit out a Saturday and watch the scouts fly.

The TARC team that fly's with us went from 93rd last year to 23rd this year, as a reward the school was talking about doing away with the team cause they couldn't get a teacher to mentor them.

I just don't get it??

JD
 
I am not an Apogee customer, but I have heard from a very reliable source that Apogee sells certain reloads at above retail, and evidently does it successfully. Go figure. While not illegal, I find that practice inexcusable.
 
I'll be at a YMCA camp tomorrow doing both static and flights. They're one of the groups i sponsor as Wildman CT. I see lots of new faces every year.
The real problem is how to keep them in. I even give discount coupons - and rarely see them come back!
I'd bet the challenge is getting overloaded parents to do yet one more thing with their kids, but I could be wrong....
 
At the risk of sounding the curmudgeon, part of the deal is that the America I grew up in, and what the hobby was born in, is NOT the America we have now.

Growing up, there were no cells and entertainment was riding our bikes until sunset and TV in the evening after homework. There was an active US manned space program. You could go to an empty field, launch rockets, come back and do the next thing. It wasn't even that big a deal to get your parents to drive you to a big open field, just out of town.

Today, try to fly in a vacant field now near your home and you could get in trouble fast. Why put up with the hassle when you can get a new game for the game station?

Along the lines of what Wildman CT wrote, I think a lot of parents are to the point that the juice is not worth the squeeze.

I think that going forward, clubs (those that are welcoming to new faces) and youth events are going to be the best avenue for the hobby to continue and perhaps increase.

Greg
 
HANDS ON, USING TOOLS, MAKING THINGS, this is what made the country and then we perfected it. The issue isn't just rocketry it is everywhere. It comes from the home and from the current mentors, Dads and Moms, if you cultivate it in the youth they can turn it into whatever excites them. Imagine a day when there are only people to CAD design things and no one to build them or repair them.

Every thread of this type seems to attract a couple of what I've dubbed "GOMRAKS" - Grumpy Old Men Ranting About Kids these days. Just a few generations ago I'm sure the GOMRAKS were worried about a day when everyone was driving machines around and no one knew how to buy a good horse.

The right question isn't "what's wrong with kids these days?" it's "why should my hobby appeal to them?" My theory is that model rocketry used to be a cutting edge nerdy hobby for the tech inclined. But it's been supplanted by a lot of new technology. Now today's bright young nerd has a wide array of tech and science related hobbies to choose from, and building a paper and wood kit from instructions seems more like arts and crafts.

I think Grouch has it right - rocketry will be more appealing if we can keep it on the cutting edge, and talk about how it still ties into important science. Talk about the data and the electronics and the simulations (but don't forget about the explosives, because those still have inter-generational appeal :grin:)

I recently had had a lot of success with a class at a local high school that has a fantastic wood shop, including a laser cutter and 3D printer. They built their rockets totally from scratch - printed cones, laser cut fins, even hand rolled tubes out of a paper composite. But they did it with modern tools, which increased both their interest and the educational value. Yes, budgets are tight, but STEM education is all the rage and often the money can be found if you spin it the right way.

A second class built larger TARC type rockets from the Estes box of parts. I taught them to use OpenRocket, and they loved tinkering with the sims to get their designs just right, and compete against each other for the best design. And they learned a lot about physics and aerodynamics along the way. Getting to turn the best ones into real rockets and whoosh off the pad was just icing on the cake. I'm hopeful I can get them to enter into TARC this fall.

I think rocketry could be poised for a resurgence as the "maker" movement builds - soon we'll all be crafters precisely because you WON'T need to be an artist with your hands. We can perfect our dreams in pixels and then print them into reality. The renewed interest in space will also help. The hobby can take advantage of these trends as long as it embraces them rather than grumbling about them. The hobby won't look the same as it did 30 or 50 years ago, but despite what the GOMRAKs may say, this is a good thing!
 
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Using the newsletter as an "Economic Leading Indicator" I would say things are looking good. Almost by definition somebody has to sell at full retail. In my opinion that somebody is Apogee. They don't apologize for this either. If things are growing for them then the industry as a whole appears to be growing.

Tim uses phrases like: "Growing", "Out of floor space", "Adding more employees", "Investing heavliy",etc. A good company doesn't use these words unless they truly believe that things are improving.

The only thing that really concerns me is the "Harley Davidson" problem. https://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-harleydavidson-boomers-analysis-idUSBRE95K0GU20130621 The average age of the Harley consumer has increased dramatically over the last two decades. Harley so far has not been as able to grow the youth market to replace the older market. I see this in rocketry as a lot of you do as well. I am an over 50 BAR. As long as our youth are at least exposed to rocketry there is hope that they too will become a BAR like me.

thoughts?
Jim

The Harley market would be a lot younger if their bikes were cheaper. Nothing to be concerned with there. Rocketry will continue to attract younger people as more and more electronic gizmo's come online. I have seen the younger folk much more concerned with the "data" and what the computer said than watching the flight. I think we are in a bit of paradigm shift when it comes to why people are attracted to rocketry but there will always be new coming in, the trick is to get them to stay.

Harley's start out at 8200 bucks. ANYONE, and I mean any credit score puts down $820 and they're riding out on a Harley. Everyone looking at massive 30 grand baggers and saying harley's are too expensive are selling themselves short on the great bikes sportsters are. Street 500's start at 6700. and are liquid cooled. -6700- for a Harley. I see a few more kids here riding Harleys, but it seems most want ricers. Hey pick your ride, but for me.... I love sporties. Most of harley's growth has been in the female market lately...and they're kicking ass there. (Just bought my wife an iron and she LOVES it) Making seats and bars for smaller riders lets you fit any harley for just about any size person. Rockets have tall seats. An 883 comes in about 23-25 inches. This is easy math for short people.

regarding the newsletter....well, it's from apogee which for me puts in solidly in the BS pile. Tim sure knows how to shovel it. He'll convince you that paying more is good for you. It's good for him and no one else. He markets to idiots who don't know better, and gets furious when you point out he's fleecing people.



I am not an Apogee customer, but I have heard from a very reliable source that Apogee sells certain reloads at above retail, and evidently does it successfully. Go figure. While not illegal, I find that practice inexcusable.

Take a look all over the site. I understand he's keeping a ton of inventory, and thats good. I shop there for certain things. But his markup on nearly everything is way above any other vendor in the hobby. If Lehr, Allen, and DeHate can sell for reasonable prices, I don't see why TVM has to price so flipping high. But hey if he can make it work and keep replacing his customers once they learn he's insane....more power to him.
 
The lifestyles of the 50's thru 80's are gone.
The workforce is pushed beyond one's limits.
The electronic age changed the world in many ways.
Throw in the interests of parents, and like it is said above...
It's easier to give children game machines, tablets and cell phones to keep them from interupting our own personal time. Or passify the wants or "keep up with the Jones' "
Electronics is a great and cheap baby sitter, while we the adults try and keep on top of life and keep a job. There is always someone younger that will work cheaper than us experienced folks.
While our employers put more and more on us to raise the income of the CEO, Presidents and owners so they have the time to golf and fly around with their family on their personal Gulf Stream.
The 8 hour day, 40 hour week is almost non-existant in the common workforce anymore. At least where you make enough to support a family and have a little extra to sit aside for retirement (if that can ever happen) and have a little something for recreation.
Vacations as I remember them in the 60's and 70's were awesome. By the time I was working trying to support a family vacation time was a time to catch up on things at home.
Or dared not leave home in fear your home would be looted by the time you got home.
I hate to think what it is going to be like for my 12 year old when he gets there.
I tried to get him into rocketry, but the damn computer, tablet and game machine gets more respect than I do. I think it is my own fault for not limiting him on his time, but then I'll be the "Bad Guy".
As a kid, a new matchbox car on payday was a big thing. I can't imagine what he thinks is a big thing these days.
The world has changed, we need to find ways to make it what we want it to be. How is uncertain.
But I do know it will probably won't happen without another revolution as my father said it would.
People are just too busy trying to make a living to gather together and force a change.
 
Every thread of this type seems to attract a couple of what I've dubbed "GOMRAKS" - Grumpy Old Men Ranting About Kids these days. Just a few generations ago I'm sure the GOMRAKS were worried about a day when everyone was driving machines around and no one knew how to buy a good horse.

The right question isn't "what's wrong with kids these days?" it's "why should my hobby appeal to them?" My theory is that model rocketry used to be a cutting edge nerdy hobby for the tech inclined. But it's been supplanted by a lot of new technology. Now today's bright young nerd has a wide array of tech and science related hobbies to choose from, and building a paper and wood kit from instructions seems more like arts and crafts.

I think Grouch has it right - rocketry will be more appealing if we can keep it on the cutting edge, and talk about how it still ties into important science. Talk about the data and the electronics and the simulations (but don't forget about the explosives, because those still have inter-generational appeal :grin:)

I recently had had a lot of success with a class at a local high school that has a fantastic wood shop, including a laser cutter and 3D printer. They built their rockets totally from scratch - printed cones, laser cut fins, even hand rolled tubes out of a paper composite. But they did it with modern tools, which increased both their interest and the educational value. Yes, budgets are tight, but STEM education is all the rage and often the money can be found if you spin it the right way.

A second class built larger TARC type rockets from the Estes box of parts. I taught them to use OpenRocket, and they loved tinkering with the sims to get their designs just right, and compete against each other for the best design. And they learned a lot about physics and aerodynamics along the way. Getting to turn the best ones into real rockets and whoosh off the pad was just icing on the cake. I'm hopeful I can get them to enter into TARC this fall.

I think rocketry could be poised for a resurgence as the "maker" movement builds - soon we'll all be crafters precisely because you WON'T need to be an artist with your hands. We can perfect our dreams in pixels and then print them into reality. The renewed interest in space will also help. The hobby can take advantage of these trends as long as it embraces them rather than grumbling about them. The hobby won't look the same as it did 30 or 50 years ago, but despite what the GOMRAKs may say, this is a good thing!

Excellent post, Oberon.
 
regarding the newsletter....well, it's from apogee which for me puts in solidly in the BS pile. Tim sure knows how to shovel it. He'll convince you that paying more is good for you. It's good for him and no one else. He markets to idiots who don't know better, and gets furious when you point out he's fleecing people.

Take a look all over the site. I understand he's keeping a ton of inventory, and thats good. I shop there for certain things. But his markup on nearly everything is way above any other vendor in the hobby. If Lehr, Allen, and DeHate can sell for reasonable prices, I don't see why TVM has to price so flipping high. But hey if he can make it work and keep replacing his customers once they learn he's insane....more power to him.

I knew this thread would turn into Apogee-bashing.
 
If there's a product sold at Apogee that's the same price as other vendors (blue tube, for example), I'm as likely to purchase from them as anywhere else. If someone else has a better price on a product (like reloads), I buy elsewhere. I figure the content Tim puts together in his newsletter and website is worth paying retail - when retail is the going rate.

Bottom line - it's a (mostly) free market, shop where you like.
 
Excellent post, Oberon.

I agree.
More funds need to be put in schooling. Look at the worlds brains. Most are not produced here.
There was a budget for Rocket Science it my Junior High years. Nothing for Senior High.
I can list a dozen places the money should come from, but that would be getting political.
 
When you buy from Apogee, you are also paying for all the FREE videos, Peak of Flight and other data by Email or Web Site.
Tim clearly states that in one of his first videos.
Although I take advantage of his documents, Emails and videos, the only thing I bought from Apogee was RocSim. (Which was a xmas gift from my brother)
And the FREE video instructions made it almost easy for me to do what I wanted to do with it.
But I have exchanged Emails with Tim and he's just a down to earth person like you or me. A family man that loves a hobby.
But, he IS a business man and he clearly states his business practices and why.
It's for the benefit of the hobby...Sport, for the now and for the future.
So all those that do buy from Apogee, benefit all of us.
And it's a great place to show your kids about building rockets, making them look good, flying them and keep taking it to the next level.
 
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Its called capitalism. Tim charges what he charges, and enough people are willing to pay the prices he is asking to keep him in business. Don't like his prices or policies or customer service, simple solution, don't shop there. That's true of any vendor. If you don't like capitalism I guess you would rather have the government set his prices?
 
Its called capitalism. Tim charges what he charges, and enough people are willing to pay the prices he is asking to keep him in business. Don't like his prices or policies or customer service, simple solution, don't shop there. That's true of any vendor. If you don't like capitalism I guess you would rather have the government set his prices?

I completely agree there is no point in trashing any company, if you don't like them don't support them.
 
I just read the most recent Apogee newsletter and found this issue very insightful. https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter395.pdf Our hobby is relatively small and we are dependent on a small group of vendors for our "fun".

Using the newsletter as an "Economic Leading Indicator" I would say things are looking good. Almost by definition somebody has to sell at full retail. In my opinion that somebody is Apogee. They don't apologize for this either. If things are growing for them then the industry as a whole appears to be growing.

Tim uses phrases like: "Growing", "Out of floor space", "Adding more employees", "Investing heavliy",etc. A good company doesn't use these words unless they truly believe that things are improving.

The only thing that really concerns me is the "Harley Davidson" problem. https://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-harleydavidson-boomers-analysis-idUSBRE95K0GU20130621 The average age of the Harley consumer has increased dramatically over the last two decades. Harley so far has not been as able to grow the youth market to replace the older market. I see this in rocketry as a lot of you do as well. I am an over 50 BAR. As long as our youth are at least exposed to rocketry there is hope that they too will become a BAR like me.

thoughts?
Jim

OK, I am going to get flak for this, but here goes.

I just opened the latest issue of Sport Rocketry, and once again is the obligatory story about Vern Estes and his wife attending a rocket event and reminiscing about the Golden Age. These articles usually included photos of a grinning GOMRAK posing with Vern and Gleda in their satin rocket jackets. Sure, Estes is a great ambassador, but his major contributions to the hobby ended in what, 1970?

Like it or not, Van Milligan is the Estes of today. His focus is on rocketry education, safety, and fostering new hobbyists while running a good business for himself and several employees. Comparing their bios, Estes was a businessman first, modeler second. Tim is a rocketeer, through and through.

How about some prominent showcase stories about today’s industry leaders that are advancing a healthy hobby into the future? Tim at Apogee, the Wildman, and the innovators at Aerotech, CTI, Missleworks, Perfectflite, BRB, etc. deserve the accolades now just as Estes did then. The available technology and variety in rocketry today is simply amazing. This is the new Golden Age.
 
I completely agree there is no point in trashing any company, if you don't like them don't support them.

Just so I'm clear...if after your first purchase with a company...somewhere in the amount of $350...you are asked to complete a survey and for the question about "What would you like to see in the future from our company?" you answer that it might be nice to have some type of rewards program linked to the amount you spend with them, and the owner personally responds that you are not the type of customer that he wants and that you should take your business elsewhere, then you should not share your experience with others, but just not do business with them?

OK then. That's pretty much what I did three years ago. It's a shame, though, because sometimes I would like to have this business as a resource. But I can't. I've never seen a business model in any industry that includes selling many items for significantly over MSRP, boasting about it, and asking customers for feedback then personally insulting them for taking the time to respond to a survey. But if it works for them, then so be it.

I praise companies with enthusiasm when they treat me well. I do every little thing I can to promote them and to encourage others to do business with them. There is evidence of this scattered all over the forum. There are wonderful vendors throughout our hobby. Support them instead. Share your experiences with us so we can support them as well!

Cheers,
Michael
 
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"GOMRAKS" - Grumpy Old Men Ranting About Kids these days.
That's a great acronym!

It is sad, but the worst part of aging is losing enthusiasm and interest in the world and instead trying to live in the past. I'm getting old, so this is something for me to keep an eye out for.
 
OK, I am going to get flak for this, but here goes.

I just opened the latest issue of Sport Rocketry, and once again is the obligatory story about Vern Estes and his wife attending a rocket event and reminiscing about the Golden Age. These articles usually included photos of a grinning GOMRAK posing with Vern and Gleda in their satin rocket jackets. Sure, Estes is a great ambassador, but his major contributions to the hobby ended in what, 1970?

Like it or not, Van Milligan is the Estes of today. His focus is on rocketry education, safety, and fostering new hobbyists while running a good business for himself and several employees. Comparing their bios, Estes was a businessman first, modeler second. Tim is a rocketeer, through and through.

How about some prominent showcase stories about today’s industry leaders that are advancing a healthy hobby into the future? Tim at Apogee, the Wildman, and the innovators at Aerotech, CTI, Missleworks, Perfectflite, BRB, etc. deserve the accolades now just as Estes did then. The available technology and variety in rocketry today is simply amazing. This is the new Golden Age.

You make some good points, but Vern Estes will always have a special place in the world of model rocketry. He is also comes without controversy or bias. If Sport Rocketry would treat one current vendor with the same reverence given to Vern Estes, the other vendors would likely howl with protest.
 
Just so I'm clear...if after your first purchase with a company...somewhere in the amount of $350...you are asked to complete a survey and for the question about "What would you like to see in the future from our company?" you answer that it might be nice to have some type of rewards program linked to the amount you spend with them, and the owner personally responds that you are not the type of customer that he wants and that you should take your business elsewhere, then you should not share your experience with others, but just not do business with them?

To be fair, the comments made by myself and rocketjet787 were addressing the pricing of the vendor in question. You are discussing another can of worms. It is shocking to hear that a vendor rudely dismissed your suggestion, especially after making a sizeable purchase. If a vendor doesn't want to institute a rewards program they can simply say that they looked at such a program and have decided not to implement one.
 
That's a great acronym!

It is sad, but the worst part of aging is losing enthusiasm and interest in the world and instead trying to live in the past. I'm getting old, so this is something for me to keep an eye out for.

+1...
Me too....

Teddy
 
Some vendors are growing, some shrinking, some stagnate. I am glad I am growing.

One of the good guys, for certain. We're glad you are growing also.

Committing to bring back a discontinued favorite from LOC...I thought it was risky at the time, but a wonderful thing for the hobby. Brilliant!

Cheers,
Michael
 
+1...
Me too....

Teddy[/QUOTE

+2 Me too, I am getting older, but I refuse to grow up. Where else can you spend time with the family, use hands on skills, math, electronics, art, imagination , creativity, problem solving and get exercise?
 
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