DARS Launches - Dallas Area Rocket Society

dhbarr said:

I'm curious why all the conflation of NAR and TRA rulesets?

Was this a NAR person affiliated w/ a NAR launchsite clarifying for a TRA person attending same?

I'm asking honestly, as someday I ( dual-TRA-NAR ) will hopefully be introducing my boys to HPR, and I don't want to make anyone grumpy.

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Well I can explain the differences between the two. NAR has the Jr. L1 program for teenagers it would be good if they had a Jr L2 and Jr. L3 but they don't do the largest motor a teenager fly and be the official flyer is an I. To achieve this a teenager does pretty much what you have to do for a L1 cert. But if you want to fly over I motors as a teenager in NAR under NAR rules they can have a "sponsor" that looks over the teenager as he preps his rocket, makes sure he doesn't make a mistake or do something stupid, and handle stuff like the motor and black power charges. But with a sponsor the teenager does not go on as the official flier the "sponsor" does and the "sponsor" has all the responsibility of the flight.

Tripoli has the Tripoli Mentoring Program (TMP) it allows a teenager to fly any motor that they have the knowledge to fly but they have to have a "mentor" that is certified to the level of the motor flown. To achieve this the teenager takes a written test and that's it not flight or anything. This mentor watches over the teenager to make sure they don't do anything stupid and correct them if they do something wrong. This mentor is also the flyer of record and has all the responsibility of the flight.

Hope your boys have fun and are interested rocketry needs more teenagers!

Looking forward to tomorrow. See you there.

Man, I had a great time at the DARS launch today!

Great weather, great folks, and the new Prairie Hill site is great!

Some low fog/running scuddy clouds delayed the start of the fun an hour or so, allowing the equipment set up to proceed at a more relaxed pace.

I got five flights in and everything worked exactly as planned.

New Estes Trajector, wrapped with John Pursleys Phantom Trajector skin on an Estes F15-6.
Dynasoar Rocketry RC RG Bomarc on an AT E12RC.
My OD RC RG Black Horse Spaceplane on an AT D2.3.
AT StrongArm on an AT G40-7 SU with motor eject and RC Chute Sled main chute deploy.
My OD Aquila 4"x76" on an AT 140DMS, with motor eject and RC Chute Sled main deploy.

The first high power flight in the RC Chute Sled worked great. The unit is now 7 for 7.

Pictures to follow.

Well, my airstart flight was exciting.

Ignition was fine.


Something's not quite right.


Yeah, that's not good. If you look closely, you can see the liner and grains just below the parachute bundle. They haven't re-lit at this point.


Hmmm. I don't think that's supposed to look like that.


This is the obvious damage. There's more. Once I finish assessing, I'll come up with the repair/rebuild plan.

Well my L2300 launch didn't go as planned. How do you say it I believe it had an unexpected disassembly. The motor Catoed I talked to a few people at the launch and they think it's because of the smoke grain fell down when the grains burned causing it to plug up the nozzle and explode. Aerotech sent a bunch of notices last week about gluing the grains in but the L2300 wasn't on the list well now I know I should glue in the grains for all of my high thrust motors. Couldn't find the rocket but after looking at the video when I got home seemed I may have been looking in the wrong part of the field I'll look again at the next launch. But I did some how manage to find my GPS in the middle of the field wrapped in bubble wrap it stopped working when it blew up but when I came closer I got a signal I figured out the atenna broke should be an easy fix.
I'll post pictures and videos soon.

dhbarr said:

Was this a NAR person affiliated w/ a NAR launchsite clarifying for a TRA person attending same?

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That TRA person is also a NAR member who is in the NAR Junior participation program and should have known its requirements. Which limit him to H and I motors and no electronic deployment. (Of the ejection charge variety.)

UhClem said:

That TRA person is also a NAR member who is in the NAR Junior participation program and should have known its requirements. Which limit him to H and I motors and no electronic deployment. (Of the ejection charge variety.)

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This person is in both junior programs? I was thinking this person was in the TRA junior program only, hence me trying to figure out where the NAR restrictions were coming into the picture.

Already looking forward to going back down there next month. Now that we appear to have a reliable site with all-weather access (no dirt roads and no need to drive off-road), we hopefully will be able to fly more.

Will have to get more serious about doing level 2. I have a conventional L2 project partly done, but I would really rather do a J powered RC rocket glider. With the old runways at Prairie Hill (imperfect, but not in terrible shape), might be able to land on recessed wheels instead of a belly landing in the grass.

The biggest problem would be the abundance of cow by-product on the runways, both fresh and petrified...

dhbarr said:

This person is in both junior programs? I was thinking this person was in the TRA junior program only, hence me trying to figure out where the NAR restrictions were coming into the picture.

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Jacob's bona fides and skills are well known to all the fliers in our little corner of the world (including David :grin. No doubt his L3 is already an anti-climactic, foregone conclusion. I need to start a scrapbook so I can have some evidence that I knew him when ... Yesterday's launch was a NAR sanctioned launch which just has a few more restrictions as has already been discussed. But all's well that ends well; the flight was flown, no grumpyness.

samb said:

Jacob's bona fides and skills are well known to all the fliers in our little corner of the world (including David :grin. No doubt his L3 is already an anti-climactic, foregone conclusion. I need to start a scrapbook so I can have some evidence that I knew him when ... Yesterday's launch was a NAR sanctioned launch which just has a few more restrictions as has already been discussed. But all's well that ends well; the flight was flown, no grumpyness.

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Congrats! My boys are looking forward to following in his footsteps someday

dhbarr said:

Congrats! My boys are looking forward to following in his footsteps someday

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Glad to here that I'm sure they will have learn a lot and have a blast just like I am!

dhbarr said:

Congrats! My boys are looking forward to following in his footsteps someday

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I'm looking forward to the day I venture into HP Rocketry myself, knowing there are knowledgeable and capable flyers in DARS, like Jacob and others, to help guide me and advise me. Age is simply a number when knowledge, experience and ability is far more important.

Sorry your flight didn't go as planned Jacob, but well, that's Rocketry!

I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with Jacob at the Prairie Hill HP launch. He his a bright, articulate young man who will go far not only in hobby rocketry but in life. As far as the "major malfunction" of his ill fated rocket, I'm sure he already knows we learn from our failures, not our successes. I hope I can muster the energy for another 318 mile round trip to see his rematch with that L2300!

Bravo Jacob!

tmacklin said:

I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with Jacob at the Prairie Hill HP launch. He his a bright, articulate young man who will go far not only in hobby rocketry but in life. As far as the "major malfunction" of his ill fated rocket, I'm sure he already knows we learn from our failures, not our successes. I hope I can muster the energy for another 318 mile round trip to see his rematch with that L2300!

Bravo Jacob!

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It was nice meeting you too! I'll definitely have a rematch with that L2300 some day!

Fred Garvin said:

I'm looking forward to the day I venture into HP Rocketry myself, knowing there are knowledgeable and capable flyers in DARS, like Jacob and others, to help guide me and advise me. Age is simply a number when knowledge, experience and ability is far more important.

Sorry your flight didn't go as planned Jacob, but well, that's Rocketry!

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I'll be Glad to help you get started with high power rocketry and I'm sure everybody else will too.

Had a great time @ Prairie Hill yesterday. Seeing old faces & putting names from TRF with new faces. Meeting youngsters like Jacob gives me hope for our countries future. Here are a few selected images from Saturday.

I guess after the meeting on Saturday, we will know when the next launch is.

https://darsrocketrypics.shutterfly.com/pictures/2583#2583

Some awesome photography by my friend TALON at Prairie Hill on October 29th. Way to go Nick! :grin:

AlfaBrewer said:

Well, my airstart flight was exciting.

Ignition was fine.
View attachment 304162

Something's not quite right.
View attachment 304161

Yeah, that's not good. If you look closely, you can see the liner and grains just below the parachute bundle. They haven't re-lit at this point.
View attachment 304160

Hmmm. I don't think that's supposed to look like that.
View attachment 304164

This is the obvious damage. There's more. Once I finish assessing, I'll come up with the repair/rebuild plan.
View attachment 304163

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Was that Bob!? I'm not one to believe a rocket can actually be cursed, but I may be starting to reconsider my position.

Cl(VII) said:

Was that Bob!? I'm not one to believe a rocket can actually be cursed, but I may be starting to reconsider my position.

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Yes, that was Bob. I talked with Suzy about Bob (the real one) and apparently, he broke and repaired rockets quite regularly. That may be the fate of this rocket. I've decided I'm going to fix, but not repaint. Any repairs will be obvious, and I will be proud of them.

Here is the googledrive link for the pictures I took at Praire Hill.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B01VqRp206FKQVVBejg2UnU5Rk0?usp=sharing

By the way.....

When we met for some pretty decent Mexican food on the way home after the launch, I brought up the subject of a launch for those vintage BP motors no longer on the approved motor list. I still think we need to launch some of our old FSI motors. I also uncovered a stash of the old problematic Estes E15s here at the house.

Jack Sprague said we could get approval to have a general launch for these motors.

Probably ought to plan for it late next spring. Gives everyone plenty of time to create a sacrificial airframe or two. No need to launch those old BP motors in the cold of winter and tempt fate to any extra degree.

Will probably whip up an Art Applewhite 24mm motor sized monocopter as a way to try some of the old Estes E15s in a reasonably CATO proof model.

A FSI F7 in a monocopter would be interesting.......

I've got an FSI F100 some gave me after a failed staging years ago. Any suggestions on a sacrificial airframe for this? Also have several packages of questionable E9's... anyone ever clustered an Art Applewhite design?

My plan is to mod some rtf rockets from HL for some of these (not the F100) old school oddity motors.

jpoehlman said:

anyone ever clustered an Art Applewhite design?

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I have an Art Applewhite designed Cluster saucer. It'd be a decent choice for the CATO prone motor.

I think the decertified motor launch is a good idea. I have some old AT stuff that was given to me that needs to fulfill its life mission.

The "De-Certified Motor Launch" is an interesting idea.....exciting and I'd like to watch. How would this effect NAR status? Intentionally launching an uncertified motor would at least disqualify any insurance coverage.....but would it put membership in jeopardy? Especially if something went really wrong? What are the down sides to something like this?

Fred Garvin said:

The "De-Certified Motor Launch" is an interesting idea.....exciting and I'd like to watch. How would this effect NAR status? Intentionally launching an uncertified motor would at least disqualify any insurance coverage.....but would it put membership in jeopardy? Especially if something went really wrong? What are the down sides to something like this?

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Rest assured that this is not a causal undertaking.

The NAR allows and covers decertified motor launches in the interest of research into motor aging.

The process has some paperwork and additional launch restrictions.

https://www.nar.org/pdf/Expired Motor Testing Program Procedures.pdf

Jack Sprague indicated that we should be able to get general permission to do so at a launch. I ran across an old note from Ted Cochran that suggests that you should submit an extensive list of routinely decertified motors you would want to fly and also propose several dates, in case of weather cancellations.

(It does look like my old Estes BP E15s are out, though, as I believe they were decertified for safety reasons and not simply due to not being produced any longer.)

Correction, more research shows that the Estes E15s were decertified in 1998 after being out of production for three years, so some of these are likely to fly some monocopters, after all!

I googled around for a list of motors that were safety de-certified, but could not find one. Anyone have one?

I also have an old stash of NCRBE F62 Motors that also need to be flown....

Three years ago at NARAM 55 I donated a NCRBE F62-6 motor to Matt Steele to fly. He had gotten the requisite permission and we flew it in a current
North Coast kit. Flew like a mothe...bat out o...flew really great. All that dark smoke and the delay was accurate. Barry Tunick messed us over when
he canceled NCRBE when he would have had to pay royalties.
I have eight ammo boxes full of old motors.

Chas

Fred Garvin said:

The "De-Certified Motor Launch" is an interesting idea.....exciting and I'd like to watch. How would this effect NAR status? Intentionally launching an uncertified motor would at least disqualify any insurance coverage.....but would it put membership in jeopardy? Especially if something went really wrong? What are the down sides to something like this?

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Don't worry Fred, we'll use TRF handles or Red Lectroid aliases to protect ourselves. A good way to clean out the old rockets bin.

jpoehlman said:

I've got an FSI F100 some gave me after a failed staging years ago. Any suggestions on a sacrificial airframe for this? Also have several packages of questionable E9's... anyone ever clustered an Art Applewhite design?

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Call the F100 "Cato or Bust"

I think you should do a minimum diameter one, problably a carded rocket since 27mm is an odd size (plus the disposability), to accentuate the acceleration, I would think saucers have too much drag... O25000 in the 1:1 V2 type of thing.
Just my opinion.

I'll the rocket (the body tube at least) if you bring the motor to the DARS meeting on Saturday.

Please?


-Tony