Rocket launch with a toy on board

Hi guys,

I'm not sure I've chosen the right sub-forum, but I hope so

My name is Dmitry, I represent russian advertising agency "Marvelous". We are going to run an advertising campaign for some popular toy brand. At the final stage of this campaign (scheduled for November) we would like to launch a rocket with a toy on board. And we need somebody to build and launch it.

Due to many reasons we consider the best option would be to perform a launch in the USA, it doesn't really matter where exactly.

The picture of the toy is attached to this message. The height is 30cm (around 12 inches), the weight is around 10 oz.
Also, we have some additional requirements. We need to capture the launch from differrent cameras and angles as the main goal is to make a spectacular video. For this reason we also need to mount a GoPro on the rocket to capture how "the toy is going into space" (actually not). To get the right feeling we suppose the rocket should reach ~100 000 feet altitude (according to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvDqoxMUroA). We are not sure how the toy should be positioned on the rocket, probably inside it.

I will appreciate any help in finding the team capable to do that

Thank you.

We are open to discuss any offers regarding the budget.

Hello Dmitry,

100,000 feet is a very high altitude (and very expensive). Very few people have accomplished it. Here is a television show where people tried it, and failed.

[video=youtube;P5JxXka50Gw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JxXka50Gw[/video]

They had many people help them and they still had serious problems. I do not have the knowledge to do it.

What is the width of the toy? That is a very important piece of information as that will determine the width of the rocket.

Good luck.

Hi and thank you.
I believe it's about 5,5 inches wide.
I tried to reach Derek Deville, but haven't received any answer yet.

Probably we don't need to get that high. We just need to make it as much spectacular as possible.

Oh dear. Please start with 1k, maybe 10k. I have been doing this a while and only recently broke the latter, and it still cost me a couple hundred dollars -
[video=vimeo;131591813]https://vimeo.com/131591813[/video]

Or you could buy a weather balloon for $40 on Amazon and just use that. Or use CGI.

Guys, thank you for responses.
We need something spectacular, that's why balloon is not an option. CGI is plan B.

It's a single commercial launch, that's why we are searching for a team ready to handle everything on their side.
And for sure we are ready to pay much more than $200. I would say couple thousand will be certainly ok and even more. We are open to discuss any offers.

ivanov said:

Guys, thank you for responses.
We need something spectacular, that's why balloon is not an option. CGI is plan B.

It's a single commercial launch, that's why we are searching for a team ready to handle everything on their side.
And for sure we are ready to pay much more than $200. I would say couple thousand will be certainly ok and even more. We are open to discuss any offers.

Click to expand...

A couple of thousand will not get you anywhere near 100K. Go for 5 OR 10k and use a sparky motor; they look REALLY impressive.

The toy would fit nicely into the payload bay of my L3 8" Madd Max, but I don't have a motor case to put it 10,000 ft high. I stop at 4 grain. So, let's see... I would need a CTI 98/6XL case ($567.00), a reload (CTI N3400SK, $855.00), fuel and lodging at Airfest ($600.00ish???), all together $2022.00. Maybe a little something for me, besides the fame and glory of the flight ($500.00). So for easy figuring, say $3000.00. :wink: :wink:

Adrian

Thank you guys.

A couple of thousand will not get you anywhere near 100K. Go for 5 OR 10k and use a sparky motor; they look REALLY impressive.

Click to expand...

Thanks for advice, as I mentioned before we are ready to discuss offers.

jd2cylman, I've sent you the direct message.

Launching toys isn't uncommon. I've got a (small) Marvin the Martian that went up in a Maxi Icarus, and I know James May did it with Action Man (while a rival Scottish team did it with Sindy (oh, bad double entendres)).


[video=dailymotion;x2dczuj]https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2dczuj_james-may-s-toy-stories-2014-action-man-at-the-speed-of-sound-couchtripper_auto[/video]

I read that (despite what is said in the episode) Sindy was recovered within two days.

Ivanov, if the project succeds, be sure to post a link to the video on this thread

K'Tesh, thanks for the video!

morlock, I will certainly do that

There are a few who have gone to 100,000 feet, but 50,000 looks really flippin' high and you'd probably increase the pool from which you'd draw by a factor of 10. The biggest factor though would be the video - strapping a GoPro to the outside of the rocket with enough distance to film it as you've requested would keep a 50,000 foot rocket at around 30,000 or less.

I am in the advertising business (I have a media planning and buying agency - www.atlatlmedia.com) and I launch rockets. I sent a MD 3" rocket to 20,000' with a small 720P HD camera onboard. Building and flying a rocket that high cost about $1,200. Even at that altitude the sky tends to get clear. A little video editing and you could make it look higher.

If you are willing to consider something other than a Go Pro, there are some good 1080P cameras that are about the size of a BIC lighter that could work. A very fast SD card (class 10) will improve the picture. My suggestion is to have 2-3 cameras onboard so that if one fails, you would have others as backup. Do you want the toy exposed or will it be inside the rocket. If the toy is exposed, it can't be plastic, or it will melt. That is also going to slow you down and educe your altitude. Does the toy separate from the rocket? If so you will need to track it so you can find it.

If you could downscale the toy to about 54mm wide (the viewer wouldn't notice the difference if it is accurately modeled), 100K feet is much more doable. The challenge we are all facing is that with a 3.8" wide toy, you need a 4" minimum diameter rocket, and to get to 100,000' that rocket is going to have to withstand a tremendous amount of heat and friction. A rocket with a 3" booster and a 54mm upper stage could get you close to 100K feet, and you would have much less resistance to deal with. Either way, you're talking about much higher than average failure rates because of the speed, friction, and the heat you are up against.

Is the spot something that would air on network TV/cable or would it be Internet/Mobile only? Are you thinking of using cinema screen advertising? Where the media is to be placed is going to have an impact on your production quality. For instance, if you are thinking of running this spot on I-Max screens, not even a GoPro is high enough quality.

From some of the replies, they seem to assume 10,000 ft/ 3,000 meters. From you initial post you were asking for 100,000 ft/30,000 meter. There's a huge difference in not only cost, but also where this can be done.

For 10,000 ft, a few thousand dollars should get you a rocket that would be customized to your requirements with a paint and decal scheme to your liking and could be done in most areas of the US. For 100,000 ft, you probably need to added another $10K to that to have the rocket, paint, decals, etc. customized and the flights would be limited to the desert/dry lake bed areas of the western US. It would also limit you to the number of people capable of successfully making that flight.

Since you are asking on a hobby site I assume cost is an issue. If not, there should be several professional companies capable of providing the special effects flight you want.

I am in the advertising business (I have a media planning and buying agency - www.atlatlmedia.com) and I launch rockets. I sent a MD 3" rocket to 20,000' with a small 720P HD camera onboard. Building and flying a rocket that high cost about $1,200. Even at that altitude the sky tends to get clear. A little video editing and you could make it look higher.

If you are willing to consider something other than a Go Pro, there are some good 1080P cameras that are about the size of a BIC lighter that could work. A very fast SD card (class 10) will improve the picture. My suggestion is to have 2-3 cameras onboard so that if one fails, you would have others as backup. Do you want the toy exposed or will it be inside the rocket. If the toy is exposed, it can't be plastic, or it will melt. That is also going to slow you down and educe your altitude. Does the toy separate from the rocket? If so you will need to track it so you can find it.

If you could downscale the toy to about 54mm wide (the viewer wouldn't notice the difference if it is accurately modeled), 100K feet is much more doable. The challenge we are all facing is that with a 3.8" wide toy, you need a 4" minimum diameter rocket, and to get to 100,000' that rocket is going to have to withstand a tremendous amount of heat and friction. A rocket with a 3" booster and a 54mm upper stage could get you close to 100K feet, and you would have much less resistance to deal with. Either way, you're talking about much higher than average failure rates because of the speed, friction, and the heat you are up against.

Is the spot something that would air on network TV/cable or would it be Internet/Mobile only? Are you thinking of using cinema screen advertising? Where the media is to be placed is going to have an impact on your production quality. For instance, if you are thinking of running this spot on I-Max screens, not even a GoPro is high enough quality.

ivanov said:

Thank you guys.


Thanks for advice, as I mentioned before we are ready to discuss offers.

jd2cylman, I've sent you the direct message.

Click to expand...

Oh boy! My tongue wasn't firmly placed in cheek enough.... :blush: :blush: Although the toy would swim in my rocket, my getting to Airfest would be a little tougher. That is still busy time at work, but maybe I need a vacation??? Maybe this would help me get my butt to Kansas? I'll tell work it's a paid vacation...
Honestly, I have no idea how the cameras would be focused on the toy, but I'm sure we could strap cameras all over my rocket... I think cameras on the toy would still fit in my rocket. But trying to keep the toy from getting caught in the shock cords would be a little tricky...
Oh Tiiimmm...........

Adrian

Yesss

Though it sounds really fun to actually fly the toy, I think the easiest answer is to composite (filmmaker sense of the word) some suitably spectacular footage of a good sized sport rocket with separate image(s) of the toy. The rocket won't need to go very high and you could also combine footage from high-res ground-based cameras with onboard rear-looking video. It will let you easily adjust the relative sizes of the toy and rocket. A bonus for this approach is that if flown on a clear day, the blue sky background should make a pretty decent "green screen" for compositing. You might want to use two similar rockets, one with rear-looking camera apparatus and one without so the ground footage won't show the onboard camera gear.

Hi guys,

Is the spot something that would air on network TV/cable or would it be Internet/Mobile only? Are you thinking of using cinema screen advertising? Where the media is to be placed is going to have an impact on your production quality. For instance, if you are thinking of running this spot on I-Max screens, not even a GoPro is high enough quality.

Click to expand...

It would be used in the Internet mostly, so GoPro provides enough quality.

For 10,000 ft, a few thousand dollars should get you a rocket that would be customized to your requirements with a paint and decal scheme to your liking and could be done in most areas of the US. For 100,000 ft, you probably need to added another $10K to that to have the rocket, paint, decals, etc. customized and the flights would be limited to the desert/dry lake bed areas of the western US. It would also limit you to the number of people capable of successfully making that flight.

Since you are asking on a hobby site I assume cost is an issue. If not, there should be several professional companies capable of providing the special effects flight you want.

Click to expand...

The guy from NAR advised to post the request to this forum. We consider the collaboration with amateur team as a preferable option not only because of the price, but also because of flexibility.
Could you advise some of professional teams?

Regarding, the things like scaling the toy down or composite footage we are not likely to cheat really

Oh boy! My tongue wasn't firmly placed in cheek enough....

Click to expand...

We are absolutely serious about this task, so let me know if you are really capable to handle that

With the video just being Internet quality, there are some far smaller and much lighter 1080p and 720p video cameras that could effectively do the job. Because the GoPro is so heavy, you are limited to 1, maybe two onboard. You could mount 3-4 smaller, slightly lower quality cameras. My advice would be to err on the side of more slightly lower cameras, because the extreme speeds you are dealing with

I would also suggest you assemble a team of people to do this. There are some experts out there who can build and successfully fly the rocket. There are others who can do the fabrication needed to carry and showcase the creative, and there are others who can set up the video cameras.

Here are a couple videos shot with a 720p HD Wing Cam. The manufacturer also has one roughly the same size that records 7 mega pixel images at 1080p.


[YOUTUBE]XXProMvf30M[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]uuufDWFwArU[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]4hCr2ShYq6g[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]7VnCoIZuow4[/YOUTUBE]

EeebeeE, it seems that FPS is pretty low. Anyway, the camera choice is just a minute detail in comparison with the whole task)

These are at 30 FPS. They typically net out a little slower (28-29). If you want to do 60 FPS, you'll probably need a GoPro.

In this whole effort you are going to be challenged by a few things. I focused on the cameras because I do a lot of onboard video with smaller rockets and I have experimented with different compact and lightweight video cameras, but ultimately camera size and weight is representative of key issues across the board that have to be considered in an attempt like this. These issues tend to be interrelated.

The first is space. There isn't much room inside a high performance rocket like this for a payload, let alone one that has cameras directed toward it. Not only do we have to consider size and weight of the payload. We also have to consider size and weight of the system to hold everything in place. The payload is going to be subject to 40-50 G's (enough force to kill a human being), and it needs to be secured enough to withstand it.

The second is firepower. The more weight, the more firepower is needed. The larger the diameter of the rocket, the more firepower is needed. Amateurs in the US are restricted to no more than 40,960 Newton-Seconds ((9,208 PSI/seconds or 1895 KG/seconds) of thrust. With a very minimal payload and a minimum diameter rocket, you should be able to hit 100,000' with about 15,000-20,000 NS. Once you start adding more than about 6 oz. or so above the electronics needed to monitor the flight and carry out deployment, You're going to need more firepower. Challenge is that the larger N and O motors are also larger in diameter, creating an even greater need for more firepower.

The third to a lesser extent is heat. The rocket is probably going to approach Mach 3.5 - Mach 4.0 in top speed. The friction it will encounter against the atmosphere will drive surface temperatures in some areas well over 1,000 degrees. You have a plastic toy the flight team doesn't want to melt. We need to position it in an area that has less heat, and also possibly add some insulation. Insulation takes up space and adds weight. The heat is so great that most 100K shots are 1-and-done attempts. There is a great video of the Qu8K flight a few years back that achieved 127,000'. The horizontally-faced camera captured a great view. The vertically-faced camera plastic housing melted over the lens.

The final issue is success. You will only have one shot at this, so we need to make sure we do everything to ensure success. In this particular case, success isn't just getting something up to 100,000' ... it's getting something up to 100,000' and at the same time capturing some video that will demonstrate the coolness of a toy and create demand for parents and children to buy it. There is a lot that can go wrong.

One final suggestion, Do the 100,000' rocket attempt, but before you try that one, Fly one that will get you to about 40,000' - 50,000'. You will not get it to completely black sky, but it will be substantially darker. You will be noticeably higher than the altitude passenger jets fly, and again with a little creative editing, you can make it seem higher. That attempt can do one of two things. First it can be the shakedown flight to test how your payload will hold up. Second and most important, it will be a backup flight for you to get video in case your 100,000' attempt fails.

A side note. Mountain Dew created a commercial with over 1,000 low altitude rockets (probably all G motors) and they had some pretty cool onboard camera positions. I tried finding it on YouTube but could not. In addition to the :30 spot, they created about an 8-minute video of how they staged the shot and shot the video. If you can find it, you may be able to learn some ideas.

I think I've contributed all I can contribute. My highest altitude to date is 20,000', so there are those out there that are much better able to shed expertise in getting to greater extremes. I think this is really cool, and could be a big boost for our hobby. I hope you succeed. Good luck with this and please share some of the raw video with this group.

Thank you for such a detailed feedback. I believe that there are a lot of issues to face, that's why I'm searching for an experienced team to handle all of them

EeebeeE, that was an awesome writeup

So you are only interested in having someone else do this for you?

grouch, as I mentioned in the very first post, I represent the advertising agency and we need to hire a team to do that for an advertising campaign

grouch said:

So you are only interested in having someone else do this for you?

Click to expand...

Remember, he is in Russia with an ad agency; he is not a rocketeer. It can be difficult to do some of this stuff in the U.S; I imagine it is a nightmare in Russia. The local clubs I deal with have 10,000 foot waivers and one of them can get a call-in waiver to 18,000. That is still well below the 100K he wants to hit. Plus, his schedule is pretty tight; he wants to do this in November.

I would assume it would be done in the US. Probably in Black Rock. The toy would need to be shipped to the US. If the rocket is built here and flown here they can take the video footage back to Russia and edit. Agencies I've worked for in the past had shoot footage in other countries either for price or feasibility. Getting a new waiver for November would be tough. It would be better if it can be done within an existing launch. There isn't much time to build the rocket, though.

It seems that it takes couple months to build such a rocket according to the videos I've seen, doesn't it? And we have more than 3 months.