German police raid turns up WWII heavy weapons

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Winston

Lorenzo von Matterhorn
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https://www.argunners.com/german-police-raid-turns-up-wwii-panther/

The mayor of the nearby Keikendorf municipality, Alexander Orth, said it was no secret the elderly man had the tank in his possession. “He was chugging around in that thing during the snow catastrophe in 1978,” The Local quoted Orth as saying. The man has “a certain fondness for particular things … Some people like steam trains, others like tanks.”

Panther.jpg


Flak-88.jpg


Torpedo.jpg
 
Wow!

A Panther and an 88!

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Flak_18/36/37/41:

"The name applies to a series of related guns, the first one officially called the 8.8 cm Flak 18, the improved 8.8 cm Flak 36, and later the 8.8 cm Flak 37.[N 1] Flak is a contraction of German Flugzeugabwehrkanone[3][N 2] meaning "aircraft-defense cannon", the original purpose of the eighty-eight. In English, "flak" became a generic term for ground anti-aircraft fire. In informal German use, the guns were universally known as the Acht-acht ("eight-eight").[N 3]"

I bet they wind up in a museum.

Greg
 
That 88mm gun was one of the iconic weapons of WWII. The German’s used that gun for/on everything; even mounting them under the wings of the Ju88 Stuka to be used as a “Tank Buster”.
 
That 88mm gun was one of the iconic weapons of WWII. The German’s used that gun for/on everything; even mounting them under the wings of the Ju88 Stuka to be used as a “Tank Buster”.

The Stuka was the Ju-87. The Ju-88 was a different aircraft with two engines. I have never heard of the Germans mounting an 88 to any aircraft. They did mount a 75mm gun to the Ju-88, but it was not a good combination as the plane was too slow and vulnerable.
 
I read about this on a different site.
Apparently this is just the German govt. bullying him, as all of his stuff was De-milled.:mad:
 
You are correct; it was the JU87 Stuka and they did mount that gun, one under each wing and used it primarily on the Russian front.

Not sure how successful it was but I remember building a model of it back during the last ice age.

Okay, maybe not that long ago but I was interrupted during the build by a gaggle of Roman soldiers.
 
I'm pretty sure that the Tank Buster mounted a pair of 37mm cannons to the JU-87, not the 88mm. I'd surprised if an aircraft the size of a Stuka could lift the weight of two 88's, I think one alone outweighed the max takeoff weight of the aircraft.
 
Wow, what a treasure trove. That stuff is worth millions to high end collectors. Magnificent condition and high historical value. Sounds like SOME German government officials might have SOME ulterior motives to seize this stuff from SOME crazy old man.
 
The 37mm on the obsolete JU 87 was a stop gap measure on the Eastern front in 1943. It could be successful if you had an excellent pilot with BALLS of steel. The set up had several faults and quickly replaced by the FW 190. The JU 87 was a sitting duck in the daylight, so for the rest of the war the remaining ones were night harassment raiders.

Now if the guy had a JU 87 stashed, that would be a find!
 
Nice collection! The Panther was considered one of the best designed medium tanks of WWII (despite some flaws of course) and some would argue that the dread 88 was the best weapon the Germans had. That gun took out many allied tanks and did so well that they eventually mounted them into tanks...including the dreaded Tiger I.

Note that this is just from my own memory from being a WWII buff and modeler. I have WWII tank models (including a 1/6 scale sheet metal Panther I haven't built yet) and I'd say these two weapons are the ones I think are the most impressive based on design and performance.
 
How many Polizi would pull over a tank going down the road?

Don't know but, they have a tendency to make some (not all) of our American Police look like Boy Scouts...
The Polizei tend to be more like *Cajun Toilet Paper* in the respect of their attitude.

Disclaimer: My Father was a Police Officer, i have several friends that are currently...Much respect for what you do day in and, day out...everyday. Thank-you.
 
The Panther is the best looking tank of all time. The 88 is the best looking mobile artillery/antitank/antiaircraft gun of all time. I would not care about what the Home Owner's Association would say, these would look awesome in my front yard!
 
The Polizi better be careful, they might resurrect a ghost with a black uniform and pink collar piping! If another poltergeist shows up with and SD diamond on his sleeve they will all run like scared rabbits!
 
Wow, what a treasure trove. That stuff is worth millions to high end collectors. Magnificent condition and high historical value. Sounds like SOME German government officials might have SOME ulterior motives to seize this stuff from SOME crazy old man.
Since it's all apparently de-milled as TopRamen states above, something that was NOT stated in the article I found which would be par for the course for mainstream media that's either after a more sensational story or through ignorance, WHY would a "police raid" have been necessary, especially since that tank enthusiast was at least locally well known to have owned it. Not enough required paperwork filled out? New law?

I nearly drool when I think of all of the hardware like that which was just sitting around all over Europe after WWII that could have been owned for just the fuel costs of hauling it away using some other huge piece of military hardware you got for nothing somewhere else. Getting it to the US would have been more expensive and into the US perhaps possible by claiming it was going to be placed in a museum. A personal museum, open to the public, but where the owner gets to play with the toys.

Imagine all of the P-51 engines and other valuable aircraft parts simply scrapped after WWII, even those brand new and still within the US, things used today in pylon racers (P-51s), historic flying aircraft, museums, etc.

Many/most of these were just pushed overboard after the war:

GALLERY: WWII Airplane Graveyard in Pacific Ocean

https://www.argunners.com/gallery-wwii-airplane-graveyard-in-pacific-ocean/

Just as with NASA, the DOE, and the various historic stuff associated with extremely expensive and ground-breaking, world changing events they've managed to lose or allowed to severely decay, too many times physical history isn't properly preserved because its significance isn't adequately recognized at the time.

Let's see, among many other types, I'll need a mint Tiger II and two more for spares... Note the damage on the front of this Tiger II:

https://s1.1zoom.me/big3/735/349932-sepik.jpg?m=1
 
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If I am the Prosecutor and there is any flaw with any of his stuff, especially if it suspected stolen, that old dude HANGS and I am a hero. My career made by bringing down an easy target, what could be better for any Prosecutor?

Scrap metal in Europe was extremely valuable after the war, and all the guys collecting it had guns. Had to scrap and replace fast because the next war was just around the corner.
 
World War II aircraft disposal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingman_Airport_(Arizona)

After the war the Reconstruction Finance Corporation established five large storage, sales and scrapping centers for Army Air Forces aircraft. These were located at: Albuquerque AAF, New Mexico, Altus AAF, Oklahoma, Kingman, Arizona, Ontario AAF, California and Walnut Ridge AAF, Arkansas. A sixth facility for storing, selling and scrapping Navy and Marine aircraft was located at Clinton, Oklahoma.

Estimates of the number of excess surplus airplanes ran as high as 150,000. Consideration was given to storing a substantial number of these. By the summer of 1945, at least 30 sales-storage depots and 23 sales centers were in operation. In November 1945, it was estimated a total of 117,210 aircraft would be transferred as surplus.

Between 1945 and June 1947, the RFC, War Assets Corporation and the War Assets Administration (disposal function of the RFC was transferred to WAC on January 15, 1946, and to the WAA in March 1946) processed approximately 61,600 World War II aircraft, of which 34,700 were sold for flyable purposes and 26,900, primarily combat types, were sold for scrapping.

War Assets Administration came to Kingman AAF to set up Sales & Storage Depot No. 41. Depot 41 was to sell off the base buildings and equipment. Not only that, it would store aircraft from the Army Air Force. Some reports estimated that approximately 10,000 warbirds were flown to Kingman in 1945 and 1946 for storage and sale, but official records indicate that number ended up being closer to 5,500. Thirty eight of the 118 B-32 Dominator Very Heavy (VH) bombers, built by Convair at Fort Worth, TX, were flown there, including several straight from the assembly line. Five of Kingman's B-32s had participated in the 312th Bomb Group's overseas activities in the closing days of WWII.

Most of the transports and trainers could be used in the civil fleet, and trainers were sold for $875 to $2,400. The fighters and bombers were of little peacetime use, although several P-38 Lightnings were sold to individuals for use in air racing. Typical prices for surplus aircraft were:

BT-13 $450
P-38 $1,250 ($15,244 in 2015 dollars)
AT-6 $1,500
A-26 $2,000
P-51 $3,500 ($42,683 in 2015 dollars)
B-25 $8,250
B-17 $13,750
B-24 $13,750
B-32 NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE - Milton Reynolds, of the Reynolds Pen Company, wanted to purchase a Kingman Dominator for one of his record setting publicity stunts, but he was not allowed to buy one and all 38 of were destroyed.

Many aircraft from the various War Assets locations were transferred to schools, and to communities for memorial use for a minimal fee. A Boy Scout troop bought a B-17 for $350. The only B-17 known to have made it out of Kingman was B-17D #40-3097 named THE SWOOSE, which is currently (as of 2015) under restoration at the U.S. Air Force Museum's Dayton Ohio facility.

General sales were conducted from these centers across the U.S.; however, the idea for long term storage, considering the approximate cost of $20 per month per aircraft, was soon discarded, and in June 1946, the remaining aircraft, except those at Altus, were put up for scrap bid.

After the Sales-Storage No. Depot 41 completed its job in late 1948, the airfield was turned over to Mohave County to be used as an airport for the county.
 
For some strange reason many aircraft landed at these depots with full tanks of high test gasoline that was worth as much as the plane. Of course the contractor had to remove the gasoline prior to scrapping, oh well.

Just went to a car show this weekend and a rein-actor dude showed up with his 1942 Ford Jeep. He had a scrap P 40 wheel dated late 1941 in the back. He had not heard of the RAF P-40 Tomahawk they found in Egypt so I jokingly told him the RAF might be calling for parts!
 
On the fuel side, my grandfather who flew B-24's said that they always took off with full fuel, even if it was a short mission. On some of them, his back of the envelope said they could have carried another 10%-20% more bomb load and maintained a healthy reserve. That SOP may have been why they came in loaded.

My co-worker said that much of the original Israeli air force was bought from WWII surplus, including some B-17s. Apparently, they bought the planes in the US, flew them to Czechoslovakia for some upgrades and arming, and bombed Egypt on the delivery flight to Israel. It's still hard for me to imagine being able to buy heavy bombers as some guy walking in off the street. I guess they're not much use without ammo and bombs, but still...
 
From the pilots I interviewed the B 24 was a notorious leaker, you had to take off with the bomb bay doors slightly open to vent the fumes or otherwise it could. . .

Israeli ME-109s against Egyptian Spitfires.
 
One of his neighbors did'nt like him, and lied to the police that he also had "Nazi Stolen Artwork". For some reason, the police got starry eyed when they saw his lawfully owned collection and found some excuse or by-law reason to steal it from him.
I don't know what the legal system is like over there, but I hope he sues the **** out of them and gets his stuff back plus compensation.
If I ever won the mega lottery or whatever, and had the money to spend, I'de have myself an entire NFA collection with proper firing tanks and all.
 
his weekend and a rein-actor dude showed up with his 1942 Ford Jeep. He had a scrap P 40 wheel dated late 1941 in the back. He had not heard of the RAF P-40 Tomahawk they found in Egypt so I jokingly told him the RAF might be calling for parts!
Earlier this decade (EDIT: oops, meant earlier this century) I was very seriously considering buying one of these as a second, drive around town to inspire rubber necking, vehicle:

P1070507


They weren't that expensive at the time $5 to 7.5k for ones that hadn't been fully restored. Also, I thought about buying one of these when they were very plentiful around the same time, $9 - 15k depending upon mileage and condition. Now, long after the Swiss started getting rid of them in large numbers, they're much more expensive, too expensive IMO:

https://www.pinzgauer.com/vehiclelist.php?cat=1

shfull.php
 
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Scrap metal in Europe was extremely valuable after the war, and all the guys collecting it had guns. Had to scrap and replace fast because the next war was just around the corner.
Just give them more than scrap value and you'd be set. Still cheap.
 
One of his neighbors did'nt like him, and lied to the police that he also had "Nazi Stolen Artwork". For some reason, the police got starry eyed when they saw his lawfully owned collection and found some excuse or by-law reason to steal it from him. I don't know what the legal system is like over there, but I hope he sues the **** out of them and gets his stuff back plus compensation.
There's a link to a Facebook page at the original link I gave that's a popular movement to get his stuff back. I couldn't see it because it apparently requires a Facebook subscription. I was met with a sign-in page.
 
If I am the Prosecutor and there is any flaw with any of his stuff, especially if it suspected stolen, that old dude HANGS and I am a hero. My career made by bringing down an easy target, what could be better for any Prosecutor?
Yep, just ask the former Duke lacrosse team about that. Luckily for them, the truth came out and the responsible DA was disbarred. In Germany, I don't know if they need to grandstand since they may not require election via the headline-based manipulation of the ignorant masses.
 
There's a link to a Facebook page at the original link I gave that's a popular movement to get his stuff back. I couldn't see it because it apparently requires a Facebook subscription. I was met with a sign-in page.

I don't do Fakebook either.
I only do Rocketryforum and Survilalistboards.
 
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