CJ's 2-stage "Voo-Doo" Punisher 75mm to 54mm.

markkoelsch said:

Jim, very cool. Mach 2.8...measured by which device?

Click to expand...

1.8 not 2.8 RadaR ................................... just kidding. RRC3 [been pretty darn close so far to GPS]

Going to MWP, will I see ya there?

Jim, I will be at MWP to do my L3. This is the Wildman Extreme on a CTI M1830. Did test flight at Bong a couple weeks ago on a K805. I know we discussed- went with 3 2x56 nylon shear pins on lower airframe to electronics bay- worked great

Tired of sanding glass to get that perfect fit on an interstage/coupler, the new improved booster gets this.......aluminum version.




Smooth as silk. Tubes must be real square for this fit.



Internal bulkhead has O-ring to make a solid seal, no worries about charge leakage now



Sits & seals on internal ledge & makes prep simple, there is another external BP not shown.



Hats off to Charlie O & Carolina Composites for effort beyond the call of duty, to get this done in a weeks time.:smile:


Getting closer to finishing this for MWP. Replaced the 1706 motor now buried in the ground.
Thanks to Jim Scarpine for that, he has a ton of 29-38-54-75 hardware if you need any cheep!

Is Charlie going to offer that interstage coupler for sale? Beautiful work...

Looks beautiful CJ!

Viperfixr said:

Is Charlie going to offer that interstage coupler for sale? Beautiful work...

Click to expand...

Yes on a custom order basis as well as 4in to 3in, already has a 54 to 38 reducer utilizing motor for coupler.....along with some other neat items.

How much about does that interstage run?

New Carolina Composite products teaser......

How about a gorgeous fiberglass 24mm Von Karmon cone weighing only 25grams painted. Will hold a tele mini easily for those high altitude attempts! BlackHawk24 for comparison.



Or a simple hand tightened/compression jig to make ignition pellets from Pyrodex or BKNO3 powder?




29mm Von Karmon NC easily holds a Marshall tracker & RRC3 & Lipo weighs 28grams painted. Molds for both these cones now finished. BlackHawk 29 for comparison.



I will have both cones and pellets press at MidWest Power for your approval & pre-orders. Charlie will have to discuss prices, I'm just the Beta Tester. I do know prices are VERY reasonable.

Charlie will be there with his 2 stage 38 minimum featuring new head-end ignition, using the pellet installed in front closure.[it's sized to fit ] You can discuss any custom work with him for pricing.

Charlie O. does some amazing work.

Weird. That 24mm VK cone is EXACTLY what I need for a winter project I currently have in the design/idea phase. In fact it solves the only real difficult question of the project that I had. The rest is relatively easy. Almost takes the fun/challenge out of it!

I'll be ordering one as soon as I finish typing this post.

s6

Very nice cone! Perfect size to build a fast rocket for a smaller field.

blackjack2564 said:

New Carolina Composite products teaser......

How about a gorgeous fiberglass 24mm Von Karmon cone weighing only 25grams painted. Will hold a tele mini easily for those high altitude attempts! BlackHawk24 for comparison.

View attachment 274710

Or a simple hand tightened/compression jig to make ignition pellets from Pyrodex or BKNO3 powder?

View attachment 274711


29mm Von Karmon NC easily holds a Marshall tracker & RRC3 & Lipo weighs 28grams painted. Molds for both these cones now finished. BlackHawk 29 for comparison.

View attachment 274712

I will have both cones and pellets press at MidWest Power for your approval & pre-orders. Charlie will have to discuss prices, I'm just the Beta Tester. I do know prices are VERY reasonable.

Charlie will be there with his 2 stage 38 minimum featuring new head-end ignition, using the pellet installed in front closure.[it's sized to fit ] You can discuss any custom work with him for pricing.

Click to expand...

Love the 29mm NC, would be perfect for an upcoming MD project.

https://rocketrycenter.com/showthread.php?tid=318


you can follow more of this revised build & flights at above link.... Thnx all

blackjack2564 said:

Well my lead came in today. I spent hours looking at various types of lead looking for the densest stuff I could find. Shot...but # 8 was smallest...various solid bars, but that would mean casting it to fit & I didn't want to be melting lead. [been there done that]

Then I remembered my dad used to make golf clubs, he used powdered lead dumped down the shaft to get added swing weight and momentum with his big headed drivers. So I went to "Golfworks" supplier of all thing golf & viola...found it. But the same company sells on E-bay with cheaper shipping, actually after the first one, the rest is free!

Anyone with a small minimum diameter project needing nose weight, pay attention, I'm on to something here! This is as dense as t gets without melting and making a solid plug.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/252047142693

View attachment 269895

So the big question: solid lead has a density of 2.43 cubic inches, how close would the powder be?
Pretty damn close. Here are dimensions of container came in. [roughly] To the fill line.

2.25 x 1 .75

View attachment 269891 View attachment 269896

I poured a bit on paper next to 325 mesh mag to see grain size.

View attachment 269893

After pushing around with finger and pouring off, it left no residue, unlike the mag.
View attachment 269892

Finally a lb in cereal bowl after swishing around no lead residue....I'm impressed with it.

View attachment 269897

Measured from top of eyebolt in 3in. NC........14in of usable space.
After filling with 1 lb of lead 12in of space....leaving plenty for a 45in chute and shock cord.
Only lost 2in of tapered area of cone....Success!

Will mix with epoxy & pour later after rigging ice-water bath to keep from overheating.

I have thought intensely about your comments Eric & have a "plan B" of bringing a payload for to Punisher just in case.
My thinking as of now, is flying first with 2-g 54mm motor in sustainer and another 54 in booster which yields a stability factor of almost 5.5.
After playing more with sims....by shortening booster, I lose stability, hmmmm go figure. I post the file later.

View attachment 269899

Not firing sustainer, just have motor in it for added stability. Fire separation charge & booster which yield around a 5,000ft flight.
If it gets squirrelly at all- go to plan B. I'm trying to keep this as compact as possible, so hopefully i won't end up with an Amramm.lol



Wayco...got the lead in. Rest assured, when I get the GPS, I WILL get it in there....even if I have to use a shoe horn.LOL

Click to expand...

How about using tungsten powder? It's much denser, so it leaves more room in the NC for other things you want to put there. Here is a link I found to it.

https://www.golftown.com/Clubmaking...ighting-Tungsten-Powder-4oz-8377#.VoRSwvkrK9I

TRFfan said:

How about using tungsten powder? It's much denser, so it leaves more room in the NC for other things you want to put there. Here is a link I found to it.

https://www.golftown.com/Clubmaking...ighting-Tungsten-Powder-4oz-8377#.VoRSwvkrK9I

Click to expand...

Tungsten is more dense than lead. Also more expensive. There are tungsten BB's, discs, and other solid tungsten pieces. You pay for it though. We use tungsten weights in Pinewood Derby cars because it packs a lot more weight into a smaller area.

4kids49 said:

Tungsten is more dense than lead. Also more expensive. There are tungsten BB's, discs, and other solid tungsten pieces. You pay for it though. We use tungsten weights in Pinewood Derby cars because it packs a lot more weight into a smaller area.

Click to expand...

And its not toxic, which is the main reason people started moving away from lead in Pinewood Derby cars. I still however use lead because its easy to work with as long as precautions are taken to prevent inhalation and ingestion.

TRFfan said:

How about using tungsten powder? It's much denser, so it leaves more room in the NC for other things you want to put there. Here is a link I found to it.

https://www.golftown.com/Clubmaking...ighting-Tungsten-Powder-4oz-8377#.VoRSwvkrK9I

Click to expand...

Well several reasons not to use.....
The price is 30.00 per 4 ounces + shipping.
Thats 120.00 @ lb!!!!
I needed 1 lb. Lost only 2in. in tip of cone,where long eyebolt is located. Mixture surrounded the eyebolt & covered it. I lost NO usable space that close to tip.
Tungsten not required....why spend money?
Smallest rocket we used in was 38mm record holder that only needed 4oz. Once again, so far forward in tip, no usable space lost.

rharshberger said:

And its not toxic, which is the main reason people started moving away from lead in Pinewood Derby cars. I still however use lead because its easy to work with as long as precautions are taken to prevent inhalation and ingestion.

Click to expand...

The product I use is ''no dust" safe, to use unless you eat it....lol

I successfully flew this at MWP with the Alpha Missleworks GPS/RTx unit, with the 3rd Booster & aluminum I/S coupler.
Awaiting arrival of the new GREATLY improved beta unit, any day now.
New feature added turns base into [for lack of better description] RF tracker, or I should say works like one. Base will store last co-ordinate permanently, [until deleted] so if you have to go back next day to hunt it brings it up, even if battery is dead. Now there are "arrows" on LCD that "point" you in correct direction to find.

You walk straight ahead towards rocket, that arrow will be pointing straight ahead. Wander off course going around trees creek etc. the left or right arrow will come on on point ,till your walking/driving straight to rocket again when that arrows appears.

So I should have it soon for the Jan. launch , I hope.
Will give updates on flights & GPS when they happen.:smile:

blackjack2564 said:

Well several reasons not to use.....
The price is 30.00 per 4 ounces + shipping.
Thats 120.00 @ lb!!!!
I needed 1 lb. Lost only 2in. in tip of cone,where long eyebolt is located. Mixture surrounded the eyebolt & covered it. I lost NO usable space that close to tip.
Tungsten not required....why spend money?
Smallest rocket we used in was 38mm record holder that only needed 4oz. Once again, so far forward in tip, no usable space lost.



The product I use is ''no dust" safe, to use unless you eat it....lol

I successfully flew this at MWP with the Alpha Missleworks GPS/RTx unit, with the 3rd Booster & aluminum I/S coupler.
Awaiting arrival of the new GREATLY improved beta unit, any day now.
New feature added turns base into [for lack of better description] RF tracker, or I should say works like one. Base will store last co-ordinate permanently, [until deleted] so if you have to go back next day to hunt it brings it up, even if battery is dead. Now there are "arrows" on LCD that "point" you in correct direction to find.

You walk straight ahead towards rocket, that arrow will be pointing straight ahead. Wander off course going around trees creek etc. the left or right arrow will come on on point ,till your walking/driving straight to rocket again when that arrows appears.

So I should have it soon for the Jan. launch , I hope.
Will give updates on flights & GPS when they happen.:smile:

Click to expand...

Yes, it is expensive, but perhaps it could be used for small MD rockets that need extra space in the NC.

I just realized never posted about the MWP flight:


First time flight with aluminum inter-stage was flawless....kinda.Lol

Everything functioned as planned till after sustainer lit. Somewhere after motor burn-out while still coasting at full tilt, I hit a strange wind shear/something that spoofed my altimeter & it fired both charges. Everything recovered fine, with exception to sustainer NC & chute. Those 2 items are M.I.A.
Booster was fine and flew to 2800.
Took several hours to find all the pieces of sustainer. Tracker had pulled through shock cord, which was missing entirely. it broke both at rear from recovery harness & front leaving a foot section on av-bay. It was dumb luck finding fin-can. Came across it while grid searching the field. Tracker was found by itself in middle of field, while av-bay with GPS recovered by it self also. Even though there was a location point....still hard to find a 6in. black bay in middle of black tilled dirt. It was hiding between 2 furows of dirt.

Booster motor K-1100 Blue Thunder. Sustainer K-400 green, which has a nice flat,slightly regressive, thrust curve for 4 sec.

Pet 2 timer in booster set for separation charge fire at motor burn out. Staging pyro set for 3.8 sec. this to account for 1.8 burn time, then 2 sec coast till sustainer ignition.
I am basing my stage time on velocity, with this stack I wanted to maintain 600fps.[actual was 560,I'll take it].
For safety it was set so altitude must reach 1500ft to stage...less and no ignition.

Lift off was grand, at motor burn out sustainer separated like a boosted dart. Smooth, no wiggle. Sustainer ignition on the button.
Data downloaded and something really strange had been encountered to spoof the altimeter. My only conclusion was checking the winds aloft for that day. Although calm at ground level, 3000 showed 37 mph & 6000 was 48.
Graph showed a + 10,000 fps velocity jump to - 10,000 within .5 sec which is impossible.

New firmware written for altimeter that should alleviate this anomaly for future flights. [I tested that last weekend...success]

Flight should have reached 14-15,000....rather than actual of 7200 where it went wonkers.
Video shows everything working great, that we could see. view full screen to see Sustainer separation better.

At least I know everything as far as staging with the new I-S aluminum coupler is working fine. Now on too more testing before the full up stack.

[video=youtube;KlomQvHYrzQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlomQvHYrzQ[/video]

As in other flights, I taped sustainer match to nozzle cap, when motor lights, it pulls the wire clean from JST connector and expels it out the back from conduit. No worries about wire tangling at apogee with recovery gear.

_________________

Finished the re-build on Sustainer NC.
Added the required 1lb. of lead in NC. [Only needed for 2-stage, NOT regular Punisher!]
All recovery gear in sustainer new/re-done. [all lost due to mishap at MWP]

Since it flew 3 times at Airfest, the paint was looking pretty ragged. Typical Argonia "Road Rash"

Re-painted and added the vinyl.
While I was at it, Finish painted the 4in. Punisher and touch, up on the Vindicator Jr 2-stage.

Good thing I have 12ft ceilings!

Plan is to use as test mule for electronics for Sparrow project.
I do have plans to let it rip on a CTI m-1440 classic in booster & L mellow in sustainer at Airfest this year.

Heyyy,,
You do some great work Jim,, no doubt...
Those came out really nice...
Will you stage anything at Red Glare coming ??

Teddy

It's been a year and half since I updated this, after the flight at MWP [video post 79]. Fall of 2016 it was going to fly at AirFest, but other projects took all my time & it came back home with me.

So I readied it again for 2017 with:
Booster which is MD-3in. M-1400 5 grain Cti Classic
Aluminum I/S contained Pet 2 timer for stage separation charge [.5gr]
Perfect flight Strato set for main at apogee 2 matches in 1 charge [1.5gr]
Comm_Spec tracker [hated to lose that one!]
Boron pellet for instant ignition.

Punisher Sustainer
CTI 6xl L-805 white 54mm
Head end ignition [2 matches & pellet for ignition] Changed over to this, rather than using the original conduit when built.
TeleMega set for sustainer ignite, only if 1800ft alt. reached & tilt not off vert. GPS tracking.
Missleworks RTx Gps tracking.
Strato back-up for apogee & main.
Marshall Rf tracker.

The up part was ABSOLUTELY perfect!
Motors chosen strictly for their thrust profiles. I had 19-1 for stack.


Courtesy of Loki Facebook page.

The Telemega was reporting flight data live.
Bullet straight,instant on-launch!

Booster burn out around 5,000ft. Seperation like a Loki Dart.
Full stack Mach 1.3 at burnout.
Coast set for 7 seconds, hoping to keep sustainer velocity at least 700-800ft/sec. at ignition.
That 7 sec. seemed like forever, sustainer reached 11,500 when ignition occurred.
Traveling at average 1,000ft/sec during coast. Spot on.
775ft/sec when sustainer ignition.
Last known altitude 26,000 ft when lost contact & Mach 2.3 burnout.[don't know altitude of that, guessing around 17-18,000 by extrapolation.]
Regained data...then it happened....Ooops. apogee fired...descent speed 450mph Main fired.....nothing.

Last known co-ordinates took me right to the fincan poking out of the dirt, 1.77 miles from pad. Both TeleMega & Missleworks got that part correct within a few feet. I'm guessing due to near vertical descent, since it was ballistic, last packets were in line with landing.

More & pics later, & the re-build begins!:smile:

Even though rocket was pretty much a total loss, I consider the flight a success, exceptional, spot on, exactly what I had predicated, based on the smaller test flights & thrust curves to determine settings for this flight. That may seem funny/strange considering the $$$ lost, but everything worked as planned.
My own user error was fault of bad recovery as I will detail later. Insufficient charges. [apogee]

After returning to camp & discussing flight, Chris Short asked me "how did you contain your apogee charges"?

Ding...Ding..ding. I instantly knew what went wrong, my own stupid error.
A month earlier, when prepping my 2 high altitude flights [over 20,000] I had both Identical head end deploy NC's on the table. I mounted the aluminum charge containers on one and finished loading, sealing them. Phone rings, I talk for an hour or so with fellow rocketeer, then return to finish 2nd NC.
Even though 2 more charge tubes were right there, ready to mount, I just made 2 charges in glove tips...DEE..dee...deeee!
This all came flooding back , when Chris asked about my charges. So now ya know why I consider flight a success. At least I figured out my error & believe you me...it will NEVER happen again!

Results:



The sustainer debris field had fincan sticking out of ground with av-bay only buried a foot. Dug it out with bottle opener attached to key chain...LOL. NC and stripped main were only 20-30 ft away. Drogue and cord still in sustainer, motor pushed out back stripping retainer off tube. front of motor bulged/ruined from impact.
Guess that proves ya'll have a hard time building a rocket.....stronger than dirt!

The real mystery is the booster. It also died. Had 2 charges for apogee, Strato with 2 matches in one charge and Pet2 pyro 2 set for 20sec as back up. There was only 7inches of tube to pressurize, I/S was buried with top 12in of airframe.
Rest broke off at impact and was just laying on field. Matches from altimeter were still on BP and had fired. This had flown in same config. several times with no issues. Guess I won't know what happened.

This is what was compacted by impact sustainer bay. originally 9in. long. Dirt crunched Tele..Missleworks...Strat...& 3 batteries down to less than 2in.
That IS actually the entire av-bay...bulk-plates on each end, compacted to this....



After Dremeling off the airframe & coupler this was what was inside!
Look at the 4-40 screw head & jst connector for scale.



Here contents of I/S after cutting it apart. First time I ever "poured" my electronics out of a bay...LOL :y:




Adding the electronics from sustainer after "prying" the folded sled apart.
Black stuff looking like dirt...is not...it's contents of LiPo batteries



So absolutely nothing left other than fin cans, which I have cut clean and waiting for replacement tube/NC to rebuild. The 6 grain M case which was OK, mysteriously disappeared from our camp later.

I will begin the rebuild as soon as my parts get here.:wink:

That is some serious carnage. Glad you are still upbeat about it all.


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Jim, the devil is in the details as you well know. Next time it will return intact.


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blackjack2564 said:

After returning to camp & discussing flight, Chris Short asked me "how did you contain your apogee charges"?

Ding...Ding..ding. I instantly knew what went wrong, my own stupid error.
A month earlier, when prepping my 2 high altitude flights [over 20,000] I had both Identical head end deploy NC's on the table. I mounted the aluminum charge containers on one and finished loading, sealing them. Phone rings, I talk for an hour or so with fellow rocketeer, then return to finish 2nd NC.
Even though 2 more charge tubes were right there, ready to mount, I just made 2 charges in glove tips...DEE..dee...deeee!
This all came flooding back , when Chris asked about my charges. So now ya know why I consider flight a success. At least I figured out my error & believe you me...it will NEVER happen again!

Click to expand...

Maybe I am missing something here but what was the problem?

timbucktoo said:

Maybe I am missing something here but what was the problem?

Click to expand...

It went too high for the black powder containment method.BP needs to be contained somewhat firmly for it to work at higher altitudes. If it is not contained properly there is not enough heat transfer to continue the burn as the particles begin to move apart.


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markkoelsch said:

It went too high for the black powder containment method.BP needs to be contained somewhat firmly for it to work at higher altitudes. If it is not contained properly there is not enough heat transfer to continue the burn as the particles begin to move apart.


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Click to expand...

so what altitude does one need to consider a different method to contain BP? Is a charge well acceptable over the glove tips?

Thank you Mark.

I usually "contain" charges over 20,000 ft, seems to be consensus by the group as a whole.
Remember that's above sea level , not launch site altitude.If flying where site is 5,000ft, like Colorado then you must contain above 15,000....more or less.

On east coast where I live & midwest where sites are only few hundred ft above sea level, I have flown to 25,000 with normal charges in glove tips, so there is some wiggle room.

For all my high flights, I use what I call gun barrel holders, long thin shaped holders. The BP goes in first, with match on top, so BP must travel past the match down barrel, giving charge more time to be fully consumed. Not match in bottom, blowing BP out the end, partially unburnt. Which can happen up high. That's a whole 'nother topic, that's covered in several threads. Some use surgical hose, or electrical tape and wrap charges heavily or canisters of some type- etc.

Short fat container, usually cannot accomplish this. I use same size on all projects, may seem strange, but even the 4 inch size has very little room needing to be pressurized due to optimizing the design.
All 3 of these below....54mm...3in....4in. all use same charge holders. What ever is used, containment till BP is totally burnt is the key.






Before ya ask where I got them, we make our own, yes we have considered selling them.

They hold 1-1.5 grams depending on using 1 or 2 matches per charge.

Thanks Jim for clarifying. Are those canisters the same as what I received from Charley with my ISC?


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