Type of Glue for Leviathan cert 1

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vicmeister

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Hi again,

I am sorry to keep bugging you experts - but I have another question. Again, I am building an Estes Leviathan, to be launched first with a G motor followed by an H for my level 1. I am use to using a wood glue, such as Titebond II Premium or Ultimate. This would be for the motor mount, Kevlar shock card attached to the MM, MM and fins to the body tube, BTs coupled together, and just about anywhere else where glue is needed. Should thgis be sufficient, or would you recommend epoxy. Thanks much. Vic
 
Vic,

I'm doing my L1 build on a Leviathan right now as well! I'm doing mine "stretched" (there's a build thread in the MPR section),and using wood glue almost exclusively.

The exception is for gluing the couplers as I've had issues with binding when using wood glue there.

Good luck!
Dave
 
Titebond should definitely be fine for a Leviathan, and pretty much any wood/cardboard rocket actually. You may want to consider leaving off the back centering ring for the initial build, then adding it after adding internal fillets (dmgrime's build thread includes a great example of this).
 
Titebond and its siblings II, III, and similar yellow wood glues are actually stronger when bonded properly than the materials they are bonding. I would if planning to fly on H motors give the rocket the standard HPR treatment of internal and external fin fillets. Titebond trim and molding glue (TMTG) will make the external fillets much easier and prettier than regular titebond. For the tube couplers just use plain white Elmers Glue-All since yellow glues grab very fast in this application. Leviathans have been flown successfully on I motors, however I would not recommend high thrust motors like VMAX or Warp9 those would probably turn a Leviathan to confetti. One member of this forum has successfully built and flown cardboard and paper L3 rockets using Titebond iirc.

Another recommendation is to ditch the Estes style shock cord and go with a HPR style harness of 1/4" Kevlar of your choice of length (I prefer 20'), Wildman sells the 1/4" Kevlar.
 
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Wood glue is perfect. One exception would be for gluing the motor retainer to the motor mount tube --- that should be epoxy, and I recommend JB Weld for that.

It's not absolutely necessary, but I've started using Gorilla glue for couplers, because wood glue can sometimes bind. Wood glue will make a fine bond for the coupler. But sometimes it can grab as you are inserting the coupler into the tube and get stuck before it is in the right position. If you do use Gorilla glue, be aware that it does expand a bit. You don't need very much.

The stock Leviathan makes a great rocket for G motors, and it can also be used for L1 attempts on H motors. For H's there are a few recommended modifications.


  • Be sure to leave the motor block ring out of the motor mount, or the H motor will not fit.
  • you might want to do internal fillets, like SC suggested.
  • You will probably want rail buttons instead of (or in addition to) the launch lug. I like ACME conformal rail guides --- very easy to glue on with JB Weld.
  • I've added a little weight, just an ounce or so, to my Leviathan's nose cone. It's not for stability. It's to help the nose cone pull the chute out of the body tube. Sometimes the Leviathan can have problems with deployment, and this is one solution I have tried. Squirt a little Gorilla glue through the hole in the NC into the very tip of the cone, pour in an ounce of BB's, squirt some more glue in on top, drip in a drop of water, store overnight resting in a cup so the BB's stay in the tip.
  • On an H, the Leviathan should go over 2,000 feet. You should do some sims to find out for sure. For flights over 2,000, you probably want a small pressure relief hole in the BT to keep pressure inside the airframe from forcing the nose cone out prematurely. A 1/8" hole should be enough.

If you are at all worried you might lose the rocket, don't risk any motor hardware. Use an Aerotech DMS motor. If you aren't worried about that, check into a cert special where you can get the reloadable case for free when you buy the motor reload.

If you have any more questions, please ask!

Good luck!
 
Wood glue is perfect. One exception would be for gluing the motor retainer to the motor mount tube --- that should be epoxy, and I recommend JB Weld for that....

+1 Like they say on Family Feud - "Good Answer!" "Good Answer!"
 
Hi Vic! Looking forward to your successful cert flight.
On my Leviathan - I lawn darted it a few weeks ago - so to fix the body, I cut - installed a coupler and another body - but I used tightbond on the coupler and STUCK it part way in and had to cut the tube again and install another coupler - glad I bought 2 just in case so I would use white glue for the coupler not yellow - grabs too quick.
Good luck on your build and you have to find it to cert so make it simple - it might disappear on an H so I would suggest a "baby H" like an Aerotech DMS H115 (I have a couple) or if you really want to get into reload a CTI H87 or H123 or Aerotech reload H97 or H128.
Good luck! Are you going to do this at PURDY? If so when is your planned date?
 
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Hey Vicmeister...good project !

It never hurts to build your rocket stronger. I like epoxy for the external fillets .. you can run a 'denatured' finger over it after its laid for a smooth fillet.

+1 on the Acme Rail Guide recommendation , kevlar bridal and JB Weld for the retainer.

The difference between a full G and a baby H is a single newton ..so if you get a good flight on a G , things should go well with your certification.

You are gonna have some fun flying too..don't forget to ask about a cert special !

Kenny
 
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I am heading down the path of completely avoiding epoxy all together with the exception of the retainer of course. Wood glue is just a heck of a lot easier to work with and it's way lighter. The last few projects I have built have been mostly wood glue builds and the difference in weight is noticeable. Light rockets fly better, don't need as large a chute and aren't as much strain on the recovery gear as a heavier rocket. If that's not enough, they give crazy performance on cheaper motors.
 
I am heading down the path of completely avoiding epoxy all together with the exception of the retainer of course. Wood glue is just a heck of a lot easier to work with and it's way lighter. The last few projects I have built have been mostly wood glue builds and the difference in weight is noticeable. Light rockets fly better, don't need as large a chute and aren't as much strain on the recovery gear as a heavier rocket. If that's not enough, they give crazy performance on cheaper motors.

Also, wood glue is non-toxic, so if you get it on your skin, you aren't risking a health problem. I use epoxy where I have to, but otherwise, I don't. Wood and paper glues are plenty strong for wood and paper rockets.
 
As I've mentioned in several other "Level 1 cert on Leviathan" threads....mine was built with wood glue exclusively except for the motor retainer. There regular 30 minute epoxy was the order of the day. So save for the JB Weld (which is overkill I think, for a plastic retainer), I'm with Thirsty all the way.

I did leave off the rear centering ring until after the fins were on so that I could do internal fillets both for the fin-to-motor-tube joints and for the joints between the fins and the body tube on the inside. But these were done with wood glue as well.
 
I am currently doing a leviathan as well that I'm planning on using for a full G flight. Did the whole fin can (including internal fillets) with titebond, but beefed up with reasonably large extremely epoxy fillets in case I decide to go crazy and throw an H or Vmax in there at some point in my life. Also did a baffle in the coupler, again with wood glue. Will use JB for the motor retainer.

Tbh that is probably overkill for what I'll fly and might take me out of the range of being able to use a full F for a small field.
 
I am currently doing a leviathan as well that I'm planning on using for a full G flight. Did the whole fin can (including internal fillets) with titebond, but beefed up with reasonably large extremely epoxy fillets in case I decide to go crazy and throw an H or Vmax in there at some point in my life. Also did a baffle in the coupler, again with wood glue. Will use JB for the motor retainer.

Tbh that is probably overkill for what I'll fly and might take me out of the range of being able to use a full F for a small field.

That's the dilemma with building technique and materials. You can start with a lightweight rocket designed for certain motor classes, say F and G. But then you think maybe you might want to fly it on something bigger, say an H. By the time you are done beefing it up, you may end up with a rocket too heavy for the smaller motors, so maybe your rocket can't fly on F motors any longer and can only fly on G and H motors.
 
That's the dilemma with building technique and materials. You can start with a lightweight rocket designed for certain motor classes, say F and G. But then you think maybe you might want to fly it on something bigger, say an H. By the time you are done beefing it up, you may end up with a rocket too heavy for the smaller motors, so maybe your rocket can't fly on F motors any longer and can only fly on G and H motors.

Exactly. I am weighing parts and will be able to determine the viability of an F with sims before build is done - TBH I hope that it will work because I don't have any other 29mm rockets! Forgot to mention that I also installed rail buttons on my Leviathan to allow use with a longer rod.
 
I will without a doubt say that a stock built Leviathan, assembled with nothing more than wood glue will handle a 29mm H motor. No problem.

As was mentioned before, JB Weld is best for the retainer.


Braden
 
The only changed I recommend for the Leviathan is to ditch the elastic band and replace it with some tubular nylon or Kevlar. Elastic belongs in underwear, not rockets. Put a eye hook in the top centering ring.

White/Yellow wood glue are both stronger than the paper tube, so should not be a problem. Epoxy is only needed for the engine retainer. (I did use epoxy on mine, but it was overkill).

And as one other person said a little extra weight in the nose cone wouldn't hurt. Not because it needs it for stability, but it's so light, it doesn't always pull out the laundry all the way.

Oh, one more thing... That tube will hold a LOT of dog barf, so put in a baffle or get a nomex wrap for the chute.
 
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I'd use epoxy on anything touching the motor mount and the coupler. MMT for heat, coupler for grabbiness, but that's me. My L1 bird was built with 30 min epoxy for the CR/MMT and fin/MMT joints, as well as fin/MMT fillets. JB weld held the retainer on. Tightbond Trim and Moulding (whatever it's called now) was used for external fillets. That was built for 38mm motors. I think I flew 2 H's in it, and the rest were I's since 2009. It's still flying.


Later!

--Coop
 
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