30,000lb Penetrator, What A Joke!

https://www.businessinsider.com/the...cilities-boggles-the-mind-2015-6#comment-form



Good thing for Iran they've had plenty of time to bury their facilities WAY further than a few hundred feet.

Pathetic.

Oh, and then there is the fact that you have to carry it over the target in an aircraft.

Yeah, good luck with that.:rofl:

Should have nuked them back in 1979.

TALON said:

Should have nuked them back in 1979.

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Agreed!

A couple of Fat Boys will do the trick.

Not exactly new technology. In WW2, Britain used the Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs. Not to be outdone in the big bomb game, America built the T-12 Cloudmaker. If the US is rediscovering 1940's technology, perhaps it should dust off some B-29s or B-36s. :lol:

If the US is rediscovering 1940's technology, perhaps it should dust off some B-29s or B-36s. :lol:[/QUOTE]
I would love to see this. Let them know we don't need to use any of our new technologies on them.

C'mon, Top, you KNOW that we wouldn't just send in a few planes. It would be a massive concentrated coordinated air strike of epic proportions. Radar killers supported by air cover going in low and taking out ANY radar that attempts to lockon. Dummy cruse missiles could perform as targets. B52's to turn the area above into a moonscape THEN the penetrator carrying bombers. Not mentioned in the story is a penetrator we have based on blown out 155mm gun barrels that are packed with High (and I do mean High) explosives. What we have may not reach all the way in but the devastation of the area would prohibit recovery attempts. It's one thing to bore through a mountain of solid rock, it's another thing to attempt the digging of a hole through tons of rock rubble ready to drop on your head at any time. They don't have to destroy the actual equipment, just make it impossible to get to.

I don't think there'll be any penetrator dropping until ISIS is gone, whenever that might be:

Iraq's pro-Iranian Shiite militias lead the ground war against ISIS

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...bb1cf0-ac94-11e4-8876-460b1144cbc1_story.html

Shiite militias backed by Iran are increasingly taking the lead in Iraq’s fight against the Islamic State, threatening to undermine U.S. strategies intended to bolster the central government, rebuild the Iraqi army and promote reconciliation with the country’s embittered Sunni minority.

With an estimated 100,000 to 120,000 armed men, the militias are rapidly eclipsing the depleted and demoralized Iraqi army, whose fighting strength has dwindled to about 48,000 troops since the government forces were routed in the northern city of Mosul last summer, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials.

A recent offensive against Islamic State militants in the province of Diyala led by the Badr Organization further reinforced the militias’ standing as the dominant military force across a swath of territory stretching from southern Iraq to Kirkuk in the north.

ISIS land grab across the Middle East is being orchestrated by former Iraqi dictator's generals

ISIS leadership is dominated by former members of Hussein's Iraqi Army
Many joined the terror group in the insurgency after the fall of the dictator
U.S. had barred the men taking government jobs or drawing their pensions
Generals' military experience has been key to the terrorists' spread in Iraq
Their connections with oil smugglers also help ISIS raise £2 billion a year

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...strated-former-Iraqi-dictator-s-generals.html

The Iranian Ascendancy
Twelve Years Later, We Know the Winner in Iraq: Iran
By Peter Van Buren

The U.S. is running around in circles in the Middle East, patching together coalitions here, acquiring strange bedfellows there, and in location after location trying to figure out who the enemy of its enemy actually is. The result is just what you'd expect: chaos further undermining whatever’s left of the nations whose frailty birthed the jihadism America is trying to squash.

And in a classic tale of unintended consequences, just about every time Washington has committed another blunder in the Middle East, Iran has stepped in to take advantage. Consider that country the rising power in the region and credit American clumsiness for the new Iranian ascendancy.

https://www.tomdispatch.com/post/17...the_middle_east%2 C_bet_on_a_winner_(iran!)/

[video=youtube;0srO4LTzVTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0srO4LTzVTE[/video]

Well said Winston! Good points all.

TopRamen said:

Well said Winston! Good points all.

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Yeah, the Romans and Brits were so damned good at nation building, but we really seem to suck at it big time. The Romans gave everyone they conquered the many benefits of being Roman citizens as the enticement and the Brits elevated into power and supported minority groups that would be entirely dependent upon Brit support, thereby effectively commanding their continued allegiance. Any uprisings would be brutally suppressed. Winston (no relation) Churchill even wanted to use chemical weapons in Iraq for that purpose (sound familiar?). After the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WWI, the borders of the Middle East were intentionally redrawn to "divide and conquer" the area for the French and Brits by setting the ruling sects there against each other.

Saddam and his Sunni Baathists were the minority group in Iraq. The majority Shiites now in power in Iraq (the Iranian's also being majority Shia) didn't think they needed us and refused to allow legal immunity for the actions of any of our soldiers stationed there in the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), thus placing them in totally unacceptable legal jeopardy for any offensive or even defensive force they used there. As a result, we were effectively forced to leave, but the typical, predictable spin here was, "Victory! Iraq is stable enough for us to leave." Uh, no it wasn't and probably never would have been or ever will be thanks to that post-WWI border redrawing which created the entirely artificial country called "Iraq."

Isn't this thread blatantly political? I thought of several replies to things posted here, but all of them were blatantly political so I didn't bother typing them. Oh what the heck; why does no one ever point a finger at one of our biggest "allies" in the region; Saudi Arabia? They have encouraged radical Islam for decades. The country itself is ruled with an iron fist using an extreme version of Islam. I think all the mistakes the U.S and the west have made over the years in this region are vastly overwhelmed by a country that has propped up radicals at every turn.

Zeus-cat said:

Isn't this thread blatantly political? I thought of several replies to things posted here, but all of them were blatantly political so I didn't bother typing them. Oh what the heck; why does no one ever point a finger at one of our biggest "allies" in the region; Saudi Arabia? They have encouraged radical Islam for decades. The country itself is ruled with an iron fist using an extreme version of Islam. I think all the mistakes the U.S and the west have made over the years in this region are vastly overwhelmed by a country that has propped up radicals at every turn.

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You are right, it has definitely become a "Political Thread" and I have no problem or qualms with it being shut down or locked.

I originally started it to simply poke fun at the weapon itself, and how it is a wasted effort and poor allocation of resources.

Zeus-cat said:

Isn't this thread blatantly political? I thought of several replies to things posted here, but all of them were blatantly political so I didn't bother typing them. Oh what the heck; why does no one ever point a finger at one of our biggest "allies" in the region; Saudi Arabia? They have encouraged radical Islam for decades. The country itself is ruled with an iron fist using an extreme version of Islam. I think all the mistakes the U.S and the west have made over the years in this region are vastly overwhelmed by a country that has propped up radicals at every turn.

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World events, especially those that are intimately related to our own interests, are important to learn about and the US media presents an exteremly superficial and often very slanted view. Just view things logically and be fact-based and unbiased without getting into DOMESTIC politics. Your BS filter has to be KNOWLEDGE and FACT based because there is so much slanted garbage to be found on-line.

Why haven't we gone after the Saudis? A couple of reasons, the first one related to the far more important second one:

Record $60bn Saudi arms sale - Biggest arms deal in US history will shore up a Gulf ally against Iran threat, but angers Tehran and worries Israel

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/13/us-saudi-arabia-arms-deal

But, totally related to the above and by far the most important one is:

Petrodollars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

In an effort to prop up the value of the dollar (after completely removing it from the gold standard), Richard Nixon negotiated a deal with Saudi Arabia that in exchange for arms and protection they would denominate all future oil sales in U.S. dollars. Subsequently, the other OPEC countries agreed to similar deals thus ensuring a global demand for U.S. dollars and allowing the U.S. to export some of its inflation.[citation needed] Since these dollars did not circulate within the country and thus were not part of the normal money supply, economists felt another term was necessary to describe the dollars received by petroleum exporting countries (OPEC) in exchange for oil, so the term petrodollar was coined by Georgetown University economics professor, Ibrahim Oweiss.

Why is that really important? Because when you want your fiat currency to remain the world's reserve currency you need to make sure it's the sole or, at least, the primary currency required to buy something that absolutely everyone needs, in this case oil. Everybody needs dollars because everybody needs dollars to buy oil. It can also then be used as a weapon for political control. BTW, on that [citation needed] in the above quote, from no less than the Wall Street Journal:

The Latest American Export: Inflation (Jan. 18, 2011) (and it's not just "the latest"; it's the "as always" for the same fundamental reason it's "the latest" and it's another of the major fringe benefits of owning the world's reserve currency)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704405704576064252782421930

Back to that petrodollar thing:

Iran, The Dollar And Financial Warfare (Feb. 7, 2012)

https://seekingalpha.com/article/348261-iran-the-dollar-and-financial-warfare

Iraq: Baghdad Moves To Euro (Nov 1, 2000)

https://www.rferl.org/content/article/1095057.html

Iran presses ahead with dollar attack (12 Feb 2012)
Last week, the Tehran Times noted that the Iranian oil bourse will start trading oil in currencies other than the dollar from March 20. This long-planned move is part of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s vision of economic war with the west.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/commodities/9077600/Iran-presses-ahead-with-dollar-attack.html

Russia Abandons PetroDollar By Opening Reserve Fund (15 January 2015)

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Russia-Abandons-PetroDollar-By-Opening-Reserve-Fund.html

TopRamen said:

You are right, it has definitely become a "Political Thread" and I have no problem or qualms with it being shut down or locked.

I originally started it to simply poke fun at the weapon itself, and how it is a wasted effort and poor allocation of resources.

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No, I think it's an entirely logical, if admittedly desperate, attempt to provide some credible (i.e non-nuclear) threat to the Iranian U enrichment centrifuge arrays and I think the thread is far more educational for most than political and is important for that reason. But I'm not the one to judge since I'm not an admin here.

Poking fun on TRF is verboten. Somebody might be offended or misinterpret something and we can't have that, can we now? :no:

The tech specs:

Pentagon Upgraded Biggest ‘Bunker Buster’ Bomb as Iran Talks Unfolded
Pentagon Tested Improved Bomb in Mid-January, Officials Say
April 3, 2015

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentag...buster-bomb-as-iran-talks-unfolded-1428078456

The Wall Street Journal reported in 2012 that Pentagon war planners had concluded that the 30,000-pound bunker buster wasn’t powerful enough to destroy certain hardened Iranian nuclear facilities and ordered steps to be taken to upgrade the bomb’s design and guidance systems. In 2013, the Journal reported the weapon was being redesigned.

The weapon was last tested in recent months, including in January, and senior officials say the results show the bomb—when dropped one on top of the other—is now more capable of penetrating fortified nuclear facilities in Iran or in North Korea.

Officials said work on improving the MOP is continuing, but the weapon has performed well in the tests, allaying the concerns officials had two years ago.

The Pentagon declined to comment on any improvements to the so-called Massive Ordnance Penetrator, or MOP. (that's OK, we already know from the 2 May 2013 WSJ artcile below)

Pentagon Bulks Up 'Bunker Buster' Bomb to Combat Iran
U.S. Upgrades Weapon to Penetrate Key Nuclear Site; Push to Persuade Israelis
May 2, 2013

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324582004578459170138890756

Several times in recent weeks, American officials, seeking to demonstrate U.S. capabilities, showed Israeli military and civilian leaders secret Air Force video of an earlier version of the bomb hitting its target in high-altitude testing, and explained what had been done to improve it, according to diplomats who were present.

In the video, the weapon can be seen penetrating the ground within inches of its target, followed by a large underground detonation, according to people who have seen the footage.

The newest version of what is the Pentagon's largest conventional bomb, the 30,000-pound Massive Ordnance Penetrator, or MOP, has adjusted fuses to maximize its burrowing power, upgraded guidance systems to improve its precision and high-tech equipment intended to allow it to evade Iranian air defenses in order to reach and destroy the Fordow nuclear enrichment complex, which is buried under a mountain near the Iranian city of Qom. The upgraded MOP designed for Fordow hasn't been dropped from a plane yet.

The improvements are meant to address U.S. and Israeli concerns that Fordow couldn't be destroyed from the air. Overcoming that obstacle could also give the West more leverage in diplomatic efforts to convince Iran to curtail its nuclear program.

https://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/12/us-iran-nuclear-strike-idUSTRE80B22020120112

The vulnerability of the chamber at Fordow, believed buried up to 80 meters (260 feet) deep on a former missile base controlled by the elite Revolutionary Guards Corps, came into sharper focus on Monday when the United Nations nuclear watchdog confirmed that Iran had started enriching uranium at the site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_Ordnance_Penetrator

On 7 April 2011, the USAF ordered eight MOPs plus supporting equipment for $28 million.[13]

On 14 November 2011, Bloomberg reported that the Air Force Global Strike Command started receiving the Massive Ordnance Penetrator and that the deliveries "will meet requirements for the current operational need".[14] The Air Force now has received delivery of 16 MOPs as of November 2011.[15] And as of March 2012, there is an "operational stockpile" at Whiteman Air Force Base.[16]

In 2012, the Pentagon requested $82 million to develop greater penetration power for the existing weapon.[1] A 2013 report stated that the development had been a success,[17] and B-2 integration testing began that year.[18]

Specifications
Length: 20.5 feet (6.2 m)[23]
Diameter: 31.5 inches (0.8 m)[23]
Weight: 30,000 pounds (14 tonnes)
Warhead: 5,300 pounds (2.4 tonnes) high explosive
Penetration: 200 ft (61 m)[6] (reference link 6 is a USAF link that's now dead; oops, released something they weren't supposed to?)

So, from all of the above, two sequential MOBs required hitting the same spot to take out the centrifuge facility.

Winston said:

So, from all of the above, two sequential MOBs required hitting the same spot to take out the centrifuge facility.

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Shouldn't be a problem for them to drop them with that level of precision, several of them dropped 15-20 seconds apart would probably do the job. I read in one of the posts that multiple MOPs could be dropped sequentially on the exact same spot to develop greater penetration, of course the shockwaves, moving debris and all that kind of stuff affect the timing between drops.

rharshberger said:

Shouldn't be a problem for them to drop them with that level of precision, several of them dropped 15-20 seconds apart would probably do the job. I read in one of the posts that multiple MOPs could be dropped sequentially on the exact same spot to develop greater penetration, of course the shockwaves, moving debris and all that kind of stuff affect the timing between drops.

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Yes, that's the idea. To prevent fratricide some delay would be necessary. The "within inches" of target mentioned by the individual who described what he saw in the "classified video" indicates the accuracy is more than adequate. They might use three MOPs just to make sure which I believe would require three B2s to be involved or maybe they don't need that redundancy and would only risk two B2s.

Yes, this is what our government is showing us! But what are they NOT showing us. I know the current admin. is cutting back our military capabilities. But I hope and pray that this admin. is still running "Black Hole Projects"!
I personally would feel more comfortable if another "type" of admin. was in place, but would like NOTHING more than to find out that this admin. unveils a Black Hole Project in this manor:

"Today, under my direct orders, we employed our newest technology in destroying Iran's nuclear capabilities. Our technology industry has produced space based weapons that have eliminated the nuclear threat from the Iranian government and the terrorist groups it supports"

I do remember, in the 80's, the outrage over $100 hammers. Only to find out years later, that the hammers were a cover up for funding the Stealth Fighter Project.

After all that I have stated, I feel that it is inevitable that one day a U.S. City will be destroyed buy a nuke.

You don't have to destroy the underground facilities. Just keep on destroying the entrances and the power to it and it just as effective.

jderimig said:

You don't have to destroy the underground facilities. Just keep on destroying the entrances and the power to it and it just as effective.

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If they use tunnels that are many miles long and place the entrances in populated areas we would'nt strike the entrances for fear of collateral damage and civilian casualties.
Pathetic.
If you want to make an Omelet you've gotta' break a few Eggs.

jderimig said:

You don't have to destroy the underground facilities. Just keep on destroying the entrances and the power to it and it just as effective.

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But if you destroy the facilities you only have to do it once, not risk flight crews on repeat missions.

Interesting Video.:

[video=youtube;DlTwsw1N7cA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlTwsw1N7cA[/video]

TopRamen said:

Interesting Video.:

[video=youtube;DlTwsw1N7cA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlTwsw1N7cA[/video]

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Yep, saw that linked to from one of the mil-tech pages I go to daily. Great idea based upon very sound principles. It also serves to unintentionally expose the fundamental flaw of any ABM system which uses missiles - the effective use of "decoys" makes offense much cheaper and more effective than defense. ABM defense against a large ICBM/SLBM attack will only be effective when we have extremely powerful and rapid fire directed energy weapons that can take out all incoming hostiles.

Countermeasures(PDF)

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/legacy/assets/documents/nwgs/cm_all.pdf

[video=youtube;gNSR7dXHdCY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNSR7dXHdCY[/video]

EDIT: Can't find a GREAT video I found but for some reason failed to bookmark that showed a US decoy concept using small rocket powered RVs and rocket powered decoy RVs. I couldn't believe it was on YouTube. Must mean it isn't being used. It claimed to decrease the ability to use atmospheric drag to sort the decoys from the much more massive RVs, as did the Safeguard ABM system. The fantastic Sprint missile was then used to intercept.