Sadness Abounds

So I attended Southern Thunder this past weekend. I wanted to try for my L1. I built the Estes Argent and over built the sustainer. I knew it'd go high but its a big field.

I ran a test flight with a G64. It was perfect. No spin. Straight. Very good deployment. And then it happened. About half way down the wind cut across the field and grabbed the chute. It was last seen sailing over the rocket eating trees in Manchester, TN. And it was the only L1 capable rocket I had finished.

I learned two important lessons. 1. Never reply on a single rocket for a cert flight. 2. No matter what anyone says, if your gut says do dual deploy, do it.

Now if anyone from MC2 or HARA can find it, I'd actually be willing to put a small reward behind it. But I hold little hope. Gone is my AT case and rocket. First lost case. Most assuredly not my first lost rocket. Just the biggest and most expensive.

Since you're building a new rocket try to buy something that is bigger overall so that a baby H is at the bottom end of what it can handle. That way it will stay fairly low on that H motor and won't blow so far away. I'd go for a Minnie Magg, LOC IV, I-ROC or Big Cletus. I did my L1/L2 on a LOC Door Knob last year. An I455 took it to a whopping 990'.

Well, I wasn't worried about the altitude. And a DD system would have solved my issue as well. I just let a couple of people cibvince me not to DD my L1 because "it's just more that can go wrong". Next time, I'll listen to my gut instinct. Should be able to launch another L1 in August. Its just a 3 hour drive.

It's your cert attempt, so you should do it the way you want.

Personally, I recommend the same thing Chris recommended (big rocket that won't go that high on an L1 motor) and your other friends or advisers recommended (no dual deployment). Those two things go together for a pretty reliable flight. If, instead, you go with a rocket that will go pretty high on an L1 motor, like an Argent, then maybe you will need DD, and that really is one more thing that can go wrong. But if that complexity appeals to you, then you should go for it. I went the less complicated way.

If your flight is going to be risky, then maybe consider a single-use DMS motor, so your hardware is not at risk.

Good luck on your second attempt.

Sorry about your loss. I was initially advised by Chuck (aka-cw bullet) to be more cost effective and use a somewhat bigger rocket that would function for both the L1 and L2 flights. That rocket would also be easier to track. It worked out as planned (used the GLR escape velocity). You may want to follow the advice of Chris and the thirsty barbarian. You could also place a tracking antenna in the nose cone and/or utilize gps tracking as well (e.g. cell phone based). Good luck on the next attempt.

Fred
TRA 15606, Level 2

I hope some finds and returns your rocket. DD isn't that tough to do so don't feel intimidated by it.

I feel you. I failed my L2 cert attempt on Saturday. Damaged the airframe pretty bad on a 60 fps landing.

I don't know what surface you are landing on, but I have had my Leviathan free-fall for nearly 1000 feet and land undamaged. Argent may be a bit more delicate, but my idea is--use a smaller chute.

The Aerotech Sumo and G-Force fly pretty low, esp. the G-Force. And they are built to withstand some serious impact. You may want to think about a G-Force. Leave out the motor block and hook, use an Estes retainer, and put a smaller parachute in it than it comes with. Pretty sure you won't lose it, and if it comes down a little too fast, you won't break it, either.

The problem with DD and 29mm MMT rockets is that the AV bay is so small. If you are set on DD, get something with a 38mm MMT that you can adapt down to 29mm. But make sure it will launch on the amount of thrust you get out of a 29mm G motor.

Sorry for your loss and your missed opportunity.

Bat-mite said:

I don't know what surface you are landing on, but I have had my Leviathan free-fall for nearly 1000 feet and land undamaged. Argent may be a bit more delicate, but my idea is--use a smaller chute.

The Aerotech Sumo and G-Force fly pretty low, esp. the G-Force. And they are built to withstand some serious impact. You may want to think about a G-Force. Leave out the motor block and hook, use an Estes retainer, and put a smaller parachute in it than it comes with. Pretty sure you won't lose it, and if it comes down a little too fast, you won't break it, either.

The problem with DD and 29mm MMT rockets is that the AV bay is so small. If you are set on DD, get something with a 38mm MMT that you can adapt down to 29mm. But make sure it will launch on the amount of thrust you get out of a 29mm G motor.

Sorry for your loss and your missed opportunity.

Click to expand...

The G-Force is a great rocket. The motor range is very versatile. I fly mine on G motors to under 1,000 feet at LPR launches, and have flown it over 2,000 on larger H motors. It should do fine on an I. A single use DMS motor like the H115 or H135 puts it between 1,000 and 1,500 feet --- in sight the whole time and easily recovered --- great L1 flight! It's a really fun rocket, easy to build, and not very expensive. I don't do dual deployment, but I would imagine the G-Force could easily be adapted for it, because it already has a very large payload bay.

I feel for ya. Those trees took my cow rocket on saturday, which was also my L1 rocket (although I certed with it 2 months ago. I want it back, just for the sentimental value. My wife's comment was that it felt like we lost a family member. That'll be a lesson to me to take more care with the wind with higher power motors. I also lost my LOC weasel which lawndarted into the trees behind the flight line. Not sure what went wrong there, and I lost a case and my first MPR rocket.

I hope your rocket, mine, and everyone else's turns up!

I've been flying High Power since I was 14, and it still took me three tries to get my L1.

Don't sweat it :wink:

Also, I wouldn't bee too quick to jump to the conclusion that you should go dual deploy. Weak charges (due to taking some advice and fixing what wasn't broken in a deployment method that I've been using for years), caused me to lose my 5.5" Nike smoke, my Perfectflite MAWD, and my Missileworks RRC2 Mini. That was an expensive L1 catastrophe!

My two cents would be to stay motor deploy, and just build a bigger rocket. Don't let it go as high :smile:



Braden

Oh man-I know the feeling. Don't give up hope. I have got back casings that have hung in a tree for almost a year. I waited until the rocket rotted and fell and I got a casing back. I hope you at least can find the rocket.

Dual deploy in smaller rockets is not as hard as you think. I have a fleet of 2.5" diameter rockets that are set up for dual deploy. I get 1500 on G80's and 2000-ish on the H128. I do 29mm high power all the time. Greatest bang for your buck. H128, H180 and I200 (to over 2500 feet) on motors that are NOT Hazmat shipping! I also have a light 4" that I launch on I200's to over 2000. 29mm High power is great fun. My highest was a 2.5" dual deploy to 2678 feet on an H268...again non hazamat motor.

Give dual deploy a try! You can also make a "blank" payload top for your rocket for times when you DONT want to fly dual deploy and you want to toss it up on a G motor. Kind of like two rockets in one!

Have fun and I hope you find your rocket.

p.s. if you want some photos of some small av bays let me know. I have built over 15 of them.

Sure - OK - I get it... Don't do "dual deploy", keep it simple... That makes sense!

Here is more food for thought.

The hardest aspect of rocketry is RECOVERY.
It's not a cert unless you recover the rocket.
Skinny light weight rockets always go high.
Light weight rockets are always more susceptible to thermals and wind during decent.
If the field is SURROUNDED by a FOREST, you better make sure you keep it on the field.
If you can't keep it on the field, you need to plan a way to track it, and retrieve it from a tree.
It's best to have a back-up plan.

I know you were already thinking about these things... but some folks with maybe more experience said "Don't do dual deploy, keep it simple."

What those folks really meant was >>> "Make sure it weighs about 5-6 pounds, use a "baby" H motor, and keep it to about 1000 feet".

By all means share them. Im working on a 1.6" DD rocket right now. It'll fly on an F35.

I ran across(somewhere) a reference to the fact that an FAA waiver represents a cylinder of airspace, and that class 2 rockets are supposed to stay within this cylinder for both the up and down portions of the flight. so having a rocket drift 3 miles down range when the waiver only extends to 5000' is a no-no, this falls into the 'fly the field' category that flyers should know.
Rex

Here's my DD advice:
Start with the rocket loaded the way you would do motor ejection, chute to come out with the motor.
Load up your altimeter like you will do dual deploy.
Launch the rocket. Best case scenario (if you got your altimeter right) is mains at apogee, ejecting the nosecone (still attached via shock cord) at that lower altitude
Worse case scenario is that you get the motor eject.
Either way you get the rocket back intact. If you did it right, change your chute and fly it dual deploy. If not, find and fix the problem (might need help there) and try again.
Obviously, use something that will get you higher then your dd altitude....

I'm actually studying DD like its a science unto itself. I have a 1.6" rocket I am working on, a 2.5" rocket and a 3" rocket. I figure the 1.6" is cheap and easy to rebuild. It's small enough not to require DD but can actually benefit from it. Figure thats a good starting point.

As far as the FAA waiver goes, keep in mind that the waiver is only required for class 2 flights. And at no time has it ever been required for LPR/MPR rockets. They have their own rules. You can build a rocket to go 2 miles on a G and no waiver is required. Not that I think a G could take a rocket 2 miles. Just exagerating for effect.

scsager said:

What those folks really meant was >>> "Make sure it weighs about 5-6 pounds, use a "baby" H motor, and keep it to about 1000 feet".

Click to expand...

I wasn't necessarily advising 1000 feet or a baby H. My successful level 1 was a stretched mini magg on an I345.

I was simply advising against rushing into Dual Deploy simply because of one failed L1 attempt. In fact, my first L1 attempt WAS dual deploy. I've been flying dual deploy for four years, and I still decided to get rid of the alts and keep it simple with motor eject. It is, in my opinion, the simplest way to get your certs done.

That being said, In my case, Certifications are not necessarily the stepping stones of learning high power like they are with most people. I flew A through L before I turned 18. That is why I decided to go with DD on my first attempt, because it had become a normal thing for me, and it still managed to bite me in the rear end (thanks to my listening to advice on how to fix something that wasn't broken).

Kruegon may do what he wants for his L1. Motor deploy in a bigger rocket is simply my recommendation.


Braden

Something to consider, if you build your L1 to be able to fly on F motors, it will get really high on H or I motors. I did my L1 on a DD scratch built 2.25 diameter. It weighed about 2 lbs 8 oz without the motors and had a 38mm hole. I did the cert on an I motor to 4200 ft. It was actually a good L1 because it stayed really low on small H motors, but could get some altitude on large I motors. That allowed me to fly under a 1000 ft on windy days and get over a mile on the calm days. It was barely flyable on G64 motors. If it had been light enough to fly on F motors, I'm not sure it would have gotten back on large I motors in the field I was flying at.

bump- Kruegon- I think i found your argent- check this thread here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?130016-Found-Rockets-Manchester-TN

PM me if it's yours!