Making your own wadding the safe way

Let me first say that the wadding you buy is NOT FLAME PROOF. IT IS FLAME RETARDANT. There is a difference. But what we use it for retardant is good enough.

I have been for the last 4 or 5 months experimenting with making my own recovery wadding. There are two reasons for me to do this.

[1] Estes and Quest wadding is expensive.

[2] I don't have room to keep a ten pound bale of "Dog Barf" in my house, and the squirrels really like to eat that stuff if I leave it in my garage..

So.. I started to experiment with making my own.

Here is what I found on the Internet.
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What you need

Saucer ,Toilet paper (as many sheets as sheets of wadding you want), wax paper, Borax or baking soda, Water, Measuring cup, Spoon

Make a saturated solution

If you paid attention in chemistry class you should know how to do this but for those that did not.... A saturated solution is made when a water soluble (something that dissolves in water) substance is added to water and dissolved then repeatedly added until no more will dissolve hence it is SATURATED Now fill your measuring cup up until its at about half a cup

Coating the paper

Now you are going to coat the toilet paper in the solution you just made your going to need the: Saucer Toilet paper (as many squares as sheets of wadding you want) Wax paper Pour the borax or baking soda solution into the saucer just enough to coat the bottom of the saucer Lay out about a foot long piece of wax paper depending on how much wadding your planning to make…

Testing it

Once its dry you need to test a piece to make sure its fire proof So just take a piece and try to light it on fire it will turn black and the edges will glow a bit but that's normal As long as it doesn't support a flame its good! if it does support a flame you did not make a very good saturated solution go back and use more borax or baking soda

Using it!

If the last step went well AWESOME because you just saved yourself 8 bucks. it can be used just like normal recovery wadding if you don't believe me try burning a piece of wadding it will act similar to what you just made This is my first Instruct able I hope you liked it!
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This is a pretty standard recipe. I have tried it and it works most of the time(all the time with these improvements)and I appreciate who ever came up with it originally , but I have learned something from my experiments, and that is what this post is about.

[1] I have learned that the toilet paper of today falls apart, so I use paper towels. Even a fifty cent roll works pretty good. You can get quite a few sheets out of a roll. Besides if you are into Mid-Power like I am, the larger sheets are great. Or if you are into smaller rockets, like I am also, cutting a sheet into four is no big deal.

[2] Borax or Baking Soda. Maybe I was using the wrong brand of Baking Soda, but I never could get the wadding made with Baking Soda from bursting into flames when I tested it after drying. It could be just me but I tried many times with the same result.

[3] Making a saturated solution. This can be tricky. My college son says that according to his professors, a saturated liquid, to be considered a saturated liquid must be at normal room temperature. Or about 75 degrees F. This is important because lets say the water is at say 90 or 95 degrees. It will absorb more Borax than say 75 degree water. This at first doesn't seem to be a problem, but as the water cools down, the excess Borax will participate out of the water. So if say you make a batch of wadding while the water is hotter, and then later make another batch, the second batch may not be as effective as the first. I have found that Borax that has precipitated out of water is clear in color. This may make you think that your solution is safe when it is not.

[4] Drip drying. This is VERY IMPORTANT. I have found that wringing out the saturated wadding can in some instances make it very ineffective, if not dangerous. What I have done is run a line in my garage to hang up the wadding after wetting it. It really needs to drip dry.

[5] Don't keep your Borax mix for more that a day or two. I mixed up a gallon, used enough to make about twenty sheets, they all tested great. Left it sit for about two weeks, went to use it, and although it didn't burst into flames it burned a little to much for my liking. Now I add two teaspoons to 16oz. water and that works just great. makes about 30 sheets.

I really like making my own rocket stuff from scratch, and I really like doing it on the cheap. But we as responsible Rocket Geeks, we need to be careful. I know as the summer wears on here in South Texas, I will be using a little extra wadding to prevent grass fires. Test every batch!

One last thing. As I write this my wife showed me something all of us needs to keep in mind. Many people have suggested using crepe paper from the dollar store. This can be very inexpensive, but the package my wife just bought does not say anywhere on the package that it is flame retardant. And after a test it is not. It burns like any other paper. So check the label before buying, or it won't be a very good buy as your rocket returns to earth as a ball of flame.

If any one has any other ideas I would like to hear them.

Andrew
I have turned to the dark side of rocketry. I do reloads.

I made some 'fire resistant' cotton balls using a formula I found on the web for flame resistant clothing(costumes) using boric acid + borax. made 1 gal of solution which was enough for a bag of 'jumbo' cotton balls. judging by the condition of the wadding I found after recovery I'd say that they were fire resistant

Great post - I applaud that you went out and did it on your own!

I did read in a Vern Estes interview that the semi truck would roll up to the factory and unload boxes of toilet paper rolls to make flameproof wadding.

We had a former Estes employee at one of our Orlando R.O.C.K. launches. He had original, treated wadding (from Estes) still on the roll! Not separated into squares, but rolled. He unrolled and tore off what he needed. He said this was how it came out after treatment.
The affirmed my guess that the tissue paper style wadding is treated (dipped) while it is still rolled on the cardboard tube. If I'm wrong on this, I'm sure somebody will chime in.

Years back Estes listed it in their catalog as Flame Resistant. The newer packages don't say anything about it. The Estes packages now say: "This material protects recovery systems from hot ejection gases."

The instructions with the Quest wadding says: "Completely flame retardent."

I have bought, cut up and successfully used crepe paper for wadding. The packages I bought at a party store had the words "flame resistant" on the packages.

All crepe paper sold in the US is flame resistant by law. I'm not sure how effective it would be at protecting your recovery system, though.

But don't forget the old standby wadding alternative, iceberg lettuce. Use some in your sandwich, and some in your rocket. Anywhere from one to a few leaves provides an effective flame barrier, and the high water content protects it from burning. It's totally biodegradable, of course, so there is no need to walk the recovery area while you pick it all up afterward.

Yup, my crepe paper package says its flame resistant as well. I use it almost all the time. I figure why stuff 6 or 8 little dinky sheets of wadding in, when you could roll out a 2 foot piece of crepe paper? Its cheap, and lotsa colors are available...

Very cool recipe though, I wonder how you could do a whole roll of TP at once? Mmm, 2 ply! Quilted?

I've started making smaller BT size LPRs, the wadding does work better for that...For my Patriot, Photon Probe, and my other (fat) odd-rocs, crepes for me!

Lettuce?! HA! Everybody knows its Brussel Sprouts! Or was it corn? :confused2:

methinks it is safe to say that, for us it would take quite some time to dry...winter would seem to be a good time to try it .

MarkII said:

But don't forget the old standby wadding alternative, iceberg lettuce. Use some in your sandwich, and some in your rocket.

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Make sure you get it all out of the rocket after flight. If you don't, you will have an unpleasant surprise waiting for you on the next flight - if you don't smell it before then :y:

uh, you will have to show me the law cause I have some crepe paper here in my hand that is not flame retardant.

My wife got it at a local dollar store called Dollar Tree just a couple of days ago. It is made in China.

Andrew
I have gone over to the dark side of rocketry.
I do reloads.

Not quite what you're looking for, but related:

https://govpulse.us/entries/2010/05...-of-china-continuation-of-antidumping-duty-or

or

https://tinyurl.com/2broyyz

I believe that the law is part of NFPA 701.

My wadding these days is tissue squares, used to make parade floats:

https://www.stumpsspirit.com/spirit/Parade-Pomps-and-Paste.cfm

For less than $20, I got enough packages of the stuff to last for years.

It looks just like the Quest wadding to me.

Centuri sold flame resistant crepe paper wadding as well as the flame resistant fluffy cotton material.

Crepe works, but if is stiffer than Estes TP wadding and it can allow hot gasses to blow by the sides if you do not form a proper gas sealing piston.

Estes did indeed make the wadding by dipping the enitre roll of TP and then allowing it to dry. They had a big rack with a lot of rolls on it. I saw it when I got a quick tour 30 years ago. It's dry up there, so I wonder how fast they dry?

Cellulose insulation with a bit of Estes or Quest wadding below to prevent it from falling into the motor area or out the back is what I use. If squirrels get into the bale of cellulose, simply transfer to a sealed plastic tub. insanely cheap and highly effective.

In case some one is interested in trying addtional chemicals here are some ideas.

Ammonium phosphate, also known as "tri-class", "multipurpose" or "ABC" dry chemical, used on class A, B, and C fires. It receives its class A rating from the agent's ability to melt and flow at 177 °C (350 °F) to smother the fire. More corrosive than other dry chemical agents. Pale yellow in color.

Sodium bicarbonate, "regular" or "ordinary" used on class B and C fires, was the first of the dry chemical agents developed. It interrupts the fire's chemical reaction, and was very common in commercial kitchens before the advent of wet chemical agents, but now is falling out of favor, as it is much less effective than wet chemical agents for class K fires, less effective than Purple-K for class B fires, and is ineffective on class A fires. White or blue in color.

Potassium bicarbonate (aka Purple-K), used on class B and C fires. About two times as effective on class B fires as sodium bicarbonate, it is the preferred dry chemical agent of the oil and gas industry. The only dry chemical agent certified for use in ARFF by the NFPA. Violet in color.

Potassium bicarbonate & Urea Complex (aka Monnex), used on Class B and C fires. More effective than all other powders due to its ability to decrepitate (where the powder breaks up into smaller particles) in the flame zone creating a larger surface area for free radical inhibition.

Potassium Chloride, or Super-K dry chemical was developed in an effort to create a high efficiency, protein-foam compatible dry chemical. Developed in the 60s, prior to Purple-K, it was never as popular as other agents since being a salt, it was quite corrosive. For B and C fires, white in color.
Foam-Compatible, which is a sodium bicarbonate (BC) based dry chemical, was developed for use with protein foams for fighting class B fires. Most dry chemicals contain metal stearates to waterproof them, but these will tend to destroy the foam blanket created by protein (animal) based foams. Foam compatible type uses silicone as a waterproofing agent, which does not harm foam. Effectiveness is identical to regular dry chemical, and it is light green in color (some ANSUL brand formulations are blue). This agent is generally no longer used since most modern dry chemicals are considered compatible with synthetic foams such as AFFF.

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GuyNoir said:

My wadding these days is tissue squares, used to make parade floats:

https://www.stumpsspirit.com/spirit/Parade-Pomps-and-Paste.cfm

For less than $20, I got enough packages of the stuff to last for years.

It looks just like the Quest wadding to me.

Click to expand...

That's interesting! $3.29 for 300 squares (on sale now!) vs. $4.49 for 100 squares at Quest.

I don't have anywhere to store a bale of dog barf. Thanks for the tip!

I just did a quick test of three different types of wadding.
The picture is only there to show the Crepe Paper packaging I use for making my own wadding.

From left to right:
Estes (white) treated toilet paper, Quest (blue) tissue paper wadding and my own hand-cut flameproof crepe paper squares. My hand-cut crepe paper comes in wide sheets, 20" x 7.5'. They are hard to cut into 4" squares. It was bought at a local party store. In the upper left corner is does state: "Flame Resistent."

I know these tests are not scientific, I was just curious and wanted to find any difference in flame resistance.

I separately bunched up a few squares of each type and set them on the concrete floor of my garage where I knew there wasn't any breeze. They were set in a large clear area far away from anything that could be considered flammable.
A match was struck and I gave a second for the flame to get established.
I touched the flame to the corners of all three wadding materials.

The Estes wadding was first. I could actually light the tissue. I'd pull the match away from the lit corner and the orange flame would last for just a moment then go out. The Estes tissue was black where the match flame was touched to the tissue.

The Quest wadding would not light like the Estes did. Granted, the Estes wadding stayed burning for only a moment. But I could not actually "light" the Quest brand. Just like the Estes, after trying to light it, the burned area was black.

Lastly, I tried my home-cut crepe squares. I couldn't get it to "flame" just like the Quest wadding. The match flame simply blackened the corner.

We all know the Quest and Estes waddings (used properly) do their job and work well. I've used both for years. Both Quest and Estes are a little easier (than my home-cut crepe) to stuff into a body tube, especially smaller diameter models.

If I use tissue wadding or Dog-Barf, I'll wrap the parachute in one square of Estes (or whatever brand is handy) for extra insurance.

Testing anyone?

https://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/te...:1.0.1.3.11&idno=14#14:1.0.1.3.11.8.201.18.22

There are a couple of things I need to clear up. I guess I have been breathing composite fuel smoke too long.

[1] The package of crepe paper my wife bought is the first I have seen and my wife as well that does not say flame retardant on it. She had bought three packages at the same time and none of them state that they are flame retardant.(I have not yet tested to see if is fire retardant or not)

[2] My home made acts like the Estes stuff. It will not flame but glows red for just a second.

[3] I put my homemade stuff into baggies. 25 sheets to a baggie. One thing I have learned is that the wadding has to really, really, really be dry. If not it will mold. Mold I have found can retard the retardant.

Andrew
I have gone over to the dark side of rocketry.
I now fly with reloadables

I have found fire resistant 2-1/2" wide crepe paper streamers for $.69 for about 80 feet.

I got some flame retardent long johns that race car drivers use off of Ebay for a few pounds, cut up, i must have made a hundred + swatches of wadding that i use like nomex, use it in everything from BT50 to 4 inch
not had a problem, and that was really cheap.

OK, that will work. What part of the Midlands are you from?

Birmingham perhaps?

Andrew
I have gone to the dark side of rocketry.
I use reloadables.

Gillard said:

I got some flame retardent long johns that race car drivers use off of Ebay for a few pounds, cut up, i must have made a hundred + swatches of wadding that i use like nomex, use it in everything from BT50 to 4 inch
not had a problem, and that was really cheap.

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I did not know that Danica was into that as a sideline business.:blush:

:y:

accooper said:

OK, that will work. What part of the Midlands are you from?

Birmingham perhaps?

Andrew
I have gone to the dark side of rocketry.
I use reloadables.

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I live in worksop, up on the Yorkshire/Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire boarder.
Midland Rocketry flys at Twycross, which is about a 75 minute drive for me.

i don't suffer from the Birmingham accent.

Funny you should post about this now. I put 20 Mule Team Borax and boric acid on the shopping list last week, but my wife hasn't picked it up yet.

I like the toilet paper type better than the stiff crepe squares because it's a little more forgiving for the inexperienced. With my school launches, we used to have shock cord burn throughs when we used Quest squares, but we never have the problem with TP wadding. It's also not dusty and messy like dog barf, but the dog barf is the most economical type, short of pulling up dandelions or other broad leaf weeds.

You don't need the boric acid. The 20 mule is what you need. 2 teaspoons in 16 oz of water seems to be just right for me.

Andrew

tbzep said:

Funny you should post about this now. I put 20 Mule Team Borax and boric acid on the shopping list last week, but my wife hasn't picked it up yet.

I like the toilet paper type better than the stiff crepe squares because it's a little more forgiving for the inexperienced. With my school launches, we used to have shock cord burn throughs when we used Quest squares, but we never have the problem with TP wadding. It's also not dusty and messy like dog barf, but the dog barf is the most economical type, short of pulling up dandelions or other broad leaf weeds.

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Rather than rolling your own... Other than a pinch of dog barf, all four of these rockets were prepped for tomorrow using re-cycled wadding I often find large wads of it on the field during launches, so I carry it back for re-use Judging from the size of the piles, some folks use a surprising amount of wadding in each flight...
Doug



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plano-doug said:

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Hey Doug, hmmm... do think you like Red-White-and Blue?

dixontj93060 said:

Hey Doug, hmmm... do think you like Red-White-and Blue?

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But it works, Tim. Right? That is, it's hard to screw up the looks when you go r-w-b. (BTW, did you notice the filename of the pic? rwb-p.jpg) You need to have a really brown thumb to screw up red-white-blue. And with Independence Day looming, it only seems fitting to roll out two new r-w-b birds Believe me, I have many, many rockets of other colors, but my last few builds have included a several r-w-b's.

Doug

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accooper said:

(snip)

If any one has any other ideas I would like to hear them.

Andrew
I have turned to the dark side of rocketry. I do reloads.

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Other Idea #1:
Step 1. Stop by a produce stand or grocery store on the way to the launch and pick up a couple heads of lettuce or cabbage

Step 2: Rip a big leaf off the head of lettuce or cabbage and stuff it in your rocket in lieu of wadding-- it's high moisture content precludes the ability to sustain combustion, so it's the perfect wadding replacement, and requires no mixing, no spraying, no delicate handling of wet toilet paper, or having to explain to the neighbors why your garage or backyard is full of strips of toilet paper hanging out to dry.

Step 3: Enjoy all the time you saved not having to do all that stuff, and have a salad once you get home from the flying field. Also enjoy the fact that you've used a renewable resource, biodegradable product that might also help feed some malnourished wildlife, and increasing thier intake of valuable nutrients like sulphur and potassium! Win/win/win!

Other Idea #2:

Step 1: Order a Nomex cloth from one of the rocket vendors and install it in your rocket over the shock cord.

Step 2: Prep your rocket by inserting said protector, then the shock cord and chute on top of it like you would with wadding

Step 3: Fly and enjoy not having to mess with stringing up wet toilet paper everywhere, and having the luxury of never having to use wadding again, and when the thing gets dirty, take it off the shock cord and toss it in the washing machine.

Other Idea #3:

Step 1: Install a baffle.

Step 2: If you're as paranoid as I am, install ONE sheet of the dinky paper Estes gives you with their engines just under the parachute and shock cord before you install them in the rocket, just for a little extra insurance. That dab of paper Estes gives you will go a LONG way that way!

Step 3: Enjoy everything mentioned previously...

Other Idea #4:

Step 1: When you're out wandering around the flying field looking for your rocket, pick up any stray wadding you find-- even burned/singed stuff, and cram it in your pockets.

Step 2: Toss it in your range box or wadding barf bag when you get back to the prep area with your rocket.

Step 3: Enjoy the fact that you have cleaned up the flying field, keeping your landowner VERY happy, and have someone else's wadding to use AGAIN for free! (ultimate in recycling!) Win/win/win!!!

Other Idea #5:

Step 1: Read Micromeister's post he's sure to put on this thread detailing his inventive use of plumber's Teflon (TM?) tape to make flameproof wadding pom-poms. Great idea and way to go!!! :clap:

Step 2: Procure your supply of plumbing tape and spend half an afternoon making a selection of Teflon Pom-poms.

Step 3: Install in your rocket by securing it to the shock cord, and enjoy the fact that you didn't have to explain to the neighbors why you're washing and drip drying a roll of toilet paper all weekend in the driveway, although you might expect being slightly chagrined getting a ribbing from all your rocket buddies at the flying field for the pom-poms you're flying in your rocket-- like that time you borrowed your sister's bike in fifth grade and rode it to the playground when yours was broke, and you took a ribbing for the pink paint job and the little pink and white tassles sticking out of the end of the handlebars... LOL :y:

Anyway, not to rain on yer parade, but there are a LOT easier ways to skin that particular cat that going through the tedium and frustration of trying to drip dry wet toilet paper to save a few bucks... BUT, whatever floats yer boat and if ya likes it, by all means do it!

:2:Later and good luck! OL JR op:

PS... I use "Other idea #4" regularly myself...

I think we have missed the point here. The original idea was to save money. Using lettuce will not save money, nor will using nomex(very expensive). You have to buy a baffle for every rocket. I have about 30 at this time.

I still say the cheapest way is to make you own.

Andrew

accooper said:

I still say the cheapest way is to make you own.

Andrew

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There is another way. A guy in the club bought a bale of dog barf and repackaged it into 2 gal ziplocs and left it in the truck for people to use as needed.

Remind me next time and I'll try to find one for you. Still bring some wadding, it is useful and I MAY have to pack some more bags.

A National fire protection formula lists boric acid also. If you cant find it, dollar store has Roach Pruf which is about 65% boric acid. The other inert ingredient is phermones. See my test for cardboard liners.