Airbourne Survellance Missile, Estes kit #0867

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Not sure what size MM that is(29mm?) but could you insert a centering ring in there so it becomes flush with the MM and use t-nuts or blind nuts and then use retention with threaded rods or machine screws.

When my G-Force got trashed ,I rebuilt it and tore/ground out the old thrust ring and spring steel clip so I could use reloads in it.In order to have possitive retention I had to make and apply another plywood CR over the old stock one.I installed t-nuts and then epoxied the new ring over the old one.I then made a retainer ring out of aluminum that goes over small threaded rods and boltd down.You don`t really need the aluminum ring as i made ,but you could make something similar.I see the MM is resessed pretty deep and the fin slots look almost flush with the motor mount aft end.I would think that as long as the CR fits flush with the MM ,it should work.

Otherwise :confused2:

That`s all i got at this time.

Paul

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As good as your retention set up is, I don't think it's useable with the ASM. But I could use your retention setup on another project, thanks for sharing.

www.giantleap.com has a 29mm 'Threaded Slimline Retainer'. It looks to be just what I need. Now I need to get my mind around the price and the ungodly shipping cost for something so small and lite.

Oh yah ,try getting that stuff shipped to Canada.I pay a fortune in shipping ,and trust me, I buy a lot of stuff from the good `ole US of A.

Thank #^$#@& our dollar is almost at par with the greenback again !!

Paul
 
I guess I did not understand what you needed for retention.I thought you were installing another CR and that you would not have the room for traditional retention.So yah ,I would have suggested AeroPack (my favorite) or Slimline.The reason I had to make my own on the G-Force ,was due to a lack of motor mount tube comming past the added CR.Othewise I always use AeroPack or Slimline in your case as retention.These type of units are great and easy to use and makes changing motors a snap.The only caveat is....loose the rocket and you lose everything.....rocket,motor case and retention.But hey,that`s rocketry.

Cheers

Paul
 
Newton, The amount of force required to accelerate one kg, one meter per second per second. 4.45 newtons equals one pound of force.

Newton-Second, The typical unit of measurement for rocket thrust. One newton-second is one newton of thrust maintained for one second.
(EMRR Glossary Library)

Impulse, Thrust force multiplied by time. The units of measurement are usually Newtons and Seconds.
(EMRR Glossary Library)

Total Impulse, The total thrust produced by a rocket motor across its full burn time. Usually expressed in Newton-seconds.
(EMRR Glossary Library)

Average Thrust , The total impulse (in Newton-seconds) divided by the length of burn time. Example; a K185 motor has a total impulse of approximately 1400 Newtonseconds, and burns for 7.5 seconds. 1387.5 Newton-seconds divided by 7.5 equals 185 newtons average thrust.
(EMRR Glossary Library)




Motor Designations

Each AeroTech composite hobby rocket motor or reload kit has a designation
which provides important information about performance. The designation is read as follows:

G64-4W

First Letter
The first letter is a code which indicates total impulse in Newton seconds produced by the motor. Each succeeding letter has up to twice the power of the preceding letter (see first attatchment). A ‘G’ motor has up to 160 N-seconds of total impulse.
(Aerotech 2009 - 2010 Catalog, page 3.)

Total Impulse: The total thrust produced by a rocket motor across its full burn time. Usually expressed in Newton-seconds.
(EMRR Glossary Library)




First Number
The first number indicates the motor's average thrust in Newtons. A (one) Newton is equivalent to 0.225 pounds of force.
(Aerotech 2009 - 2010 Catalog, page 3.)

Average Thrust: The total impulse (in Newton-seconds) divided by the length of burn time. Example; a K185 motor has a total impulse of approximately 1400 Newtonseconds, and burns for 7.5 seconds. 1387.5 Newton-seconds divided by 7.5 equals 185 newtons average thrust.

Newton-Second, The typical unit of measurement for rocket thrust. One newton-second is one newton of thrust maintained for one second.
(EMRR Glossary Library)
.225 x 185 newtons average thrust = 41.625 pounds of average thrust?

A Newton is equivalent to 0.225 pounds of force.
Total impulse of a G64 divided by the burn time of a G64 = ???? lbs of average thrust?
WHERE DO I FIND THE TOTAL IMPULSE AND BURN TIME OF A G64? Aerotech catalog? Thrustcurve.com? WTF?

Second Number
The second number shows the time delay, in secondsbetween propellant
burn-out and activation of the ejection charge.


Second Letter
The second letter indicates the propellant formulation of the motor.In this case the "W" indicates "White Lightning". Additional letters or numbers may
be added to denote other performance characteristics.



Here's a link to the page the infamous chart came from. https://www.apogeerockets.com/Aerotech_Reload_Motors.asp#24_Reloads
Scroll down several pages until you find the chart. There's an explanation that goes with the chart.


Then you need to find out about the 5:1 launch ratio.



Avoirdupois weights:

The common traditional system of weights in all the English-speaking countries. Until the introduction of the metric system, almost all weights were stated in avoirdupois units, with only precious metals being measured by troy weights and pharmaceuticals by apothecary weights. The name of the system comes from the Old French phrase avoir du pois or aveir de pois, "goods of weight," indicating simply that the goods were being sold by weight rather than by volume or by the piece. The system is based on the avoirdupois pound [1] of 7000 grains. The pound is divided into 16 ounces [1], each divided further into 16 drams [1]. The avoirdupois system was introduced in England around 1300, replacing an older commercial system based on a "mercantile pound" (libra mercatoria) of 7200 grains divided into exactly 15 troy ounces [2]. Scholars believe the avoirdupois pound was invented by wool merchants and modeled on a pound of 16 ounces used in Florence, Italy, which was an important buyer of English wool at the time. The avoirdupois weights quickly became the standard weights of trade and commerce. They continue to be used for most items of retail trade in the United States, and they remain in some use in Britain, Canada, and other areas of British heritage despite the introduction of metric units there.

The avoirdupois pound is divided into 16 ounces. By international agreement,
one avoirdupois pound is equal to exactly 453.592 37 grams, 1 oz =28.349523 grams.



Meter or Metre (m):

The metric and SI base unit of distance. Originally, the meter was designed to be one ten-millionth of a quadrant, the distance between the Equator and the North Pole. (The Earth is difficult to measure, and a small error was made in correcting for the flattening caused by the Earth's rotation. As a result, the meter is too short by a bit less than 0.02%. That's not bad for a measurement made in the 1790's.) For a long time, the meter was precisely defined as the length of an actual object, a bar kept at the International Bureau of Weights and Measures in Paris. In recent years, however, the SI base units (with one exception) have been redefined in abstract terms so they can be reproduced to any desired level of accuracy in a well-equipped laboratory. The 17th General Conference on Weights and Measures in 1983 defined the meter as that distance that makes the speed of light in a vacuum equal to exactly 299 792 458 meters per second. The speed of light in a vacuum, c, is one of the fundamental constants of nature. Since c defines the meter now, experiments made to measure the speed of light are now interpreted as measurements of the meter instead.

The meter is equal to approximately 1.093 613 3 yards, 3.280 840 feet, or 39.370 079 inches. Its name comes from the Latin metrum and the Greek metron, both meaning "measure." The unit is spelled meter in the U.S. and metre in Britain; there are many other spellings in various languages (see Spelling of Metric Units).

1 inch = 25.4mm (2.54cm)
12 inches (1 foot) x 25.4mm = 304.8mm (30.48cm)

36 inches = 1 yard or 914.4mm (91.44cm)
1 meter = 39.370079 inches or 1000mm (100cm)
1 meter = 39.370079 inches divided by 12 inches (1 foot) = 3.2808399 feet, which equals 1 meter
1000 meters = 1 Kilometers



Mile (mi) [1]:

A traditional unit of distance. The word comes from the Latin word for 1000, mille, because originally a mile was the distance a Roman legion could march in 1000 paces (or 2000 steps, a pace being the distance between successive falls of the same foot). There is some uncertainty about the length of the Roman mile. Based on the Roman foot of 29.6 centimeters and assuming a standard pace of 5 Roman feet, the Roman mile would have been 1480 meters (4856 feet); however, the measured distance between surviving milestones of Roman roads is often closer to 1520 meters or 5000 feet. In any case, miles of similar lengths were used throughout Western Europe. In medieval England, several mile units were used, including a mile of 5000 feet (1524 meters), the modern mile defined as 8 furlongs (1609 meters), and a longer mile similar to the French mille (1949 meters). None of these units corresponded with the Scottish mile (1814 meters) or the Irish mile (2048 meters). In 1592, Parliament settled the question in England by defining the statute mile to be 8 furlongs, 80 chains, 320 rods, 1760 yards or 5280 feet. Using the international definition of the foot as exactly 30.48 centimeters, the international statute mile is exactly 1609.344 meters. (In technical U.S. usage, the statute mile is defined in terms of the survey foot and equals about 1609.3472 meters; this unit is called the survey mile. In athletics, races of 1500 or 1600 meters are often called metric miles. See also nautical mile.

1 mile = 5280 feet
5280 feet (1 mile) divided by 3.2808399 feet (1 meter) = 1609.3439 meters in 1 mile


Furlong (fur):

A traditional unit of distance. Long before the Norman Conquest in 1066, Saxon farmers in England were measuring distance in rods and furlongs and areas in acres. The word "furlong", from the Old English fuhrlang, means "the length of a furrow"; it represents the distance a team of oxen could plow without needing a rest. A furlong equals 40 rods [1], which is exactly 10 chains, 220 yards, 660 feet, or 1/8 mile. One furlong is exactly 201.168 meters, so a 200-meter dash covers a distance very close to a furlong. The length of horse races is often stated in furlongs.
 

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Chain (ch):

A unit of distance used or formerly used by surveyors. Although the unit is not often used today, measured distance along a road or railroad is commonly called chainage regardless of the units used. The traditional British surveyor's chain, also called Gunter's chain because it was introduced by the English mathematician Edmund Gunter (1581-1626) in 1620, is 4 rods long: that's equal to exactly 1/80 mile, 1/10 furlong, 22 yards, or 66 feet (20.1168 meters). The traditional length of a cricket pitch is 1 chain. Gunter's chain has the useful property that an acre is exactly 10 square chains. The chain was divided into 100 links. American surveyors sometimes used a longer chain of 100 feet, known as the engineer's chain or Ramsden's chain. (However, Gunter's chain is also used in the U.S.; in fact, it is an important unit in the Public Lands Survey System.) In Texas, the vara chain of 2 varas (55.556 ft) was used in surveying Spanish land grants. In the metric world, surveyors often use a chain of 20 meters (65.617 ft). See also shackle and shot [2] for anchor chain lengths.



Rod (rd) [1]:

A traditional unit of distance equal to 5.5 yards (16 feet 6 inches or exactly 5.0292 meters). The rod and the furlong were the basic distance units used by the Anglo-Saxon residents of England before the Norman conquest of 1066. The Saxons generally called this unit the gyrd, a word which comes down to us as the name of a different unit, the yard. "Rod" is another Saxon word which meant just what it means today: a straight stick. The Normans preferred to call the gyrd a pole or a perch (a word of French origin, meaning a pole; see perche). The length of the rod was well established at least as early as the eighth century. It may have originated as the length of an ox-goad, a pole used to control a team of 8 oxen (4 yokes). Scholars are not sure how the rod was related to shorter units. It may have been considered equal to 20 "natural" feet (actual foot lengths; see foot), or it may have been measured "by hand" as 30 shaftments. In any case, when the modern foot became established in the twelfth century, the royal government did not want to change the length of the rod, since that length was the basis of land measurement, land records, and taxes. Therefore the rod was redefined to equal 16.5 feet, because with reasonable precision that happened to be its length in terms of the new foot. This length was called the "king's perch" at least as early as the time of King Richard the Lionheart (1198). Although rods and perches of other lengths were used locally in Britain, the king's perch eventually prevailed. The relationship between the rod and the other English distance units was confirmed again by the Parliamentary statute of 1592, which defined the statute mile to be either 320 rods or 1760 yards, thus forcing the rod to equal exactly 5.5 yards or 16.5 feet.



Shaftment:

An old English unit of distance equal to 2 palms. A shaftment is the distance from the tip of the outstretched thumb to the opposite side of the palm of the hand. The ending "-ment" is from the old English word mund, hand.



Yard (yd) [1]:

A traditional unit of distance equal to 3 feet or 36 inches. The word comes from a Saxon word gyrd or gyard meaning a stick, although the unit known as the gyrd in Saxon times was actually the rod [1], not the yard. The yard was established after the Norman conquest of 1066. According to tradition, King Henry I decreed that the yard should be the distance from the tip of his nose to the tip of his outstretched finger, thus defining the yard as exactly 1/2 fathom. Whether this actually happened or not, it does seem that the yard and the English foot were set at close to their modern lengths during or around the time of Henry's reign (1100-1135). The length of the oldest known standard yardstick, believed to date from 1445, agrees with the modern length within less than 0.1 millimeter. Today one yard is officially equal to exactly 91.44 centimeters or 0.9144 meter; this definition was adopted in the U.S. in 1959 and in Britain by the Weights and Measures Act of 1963.

Foot (ft or '):

A traditional unit of distance. Almost every culture has used the human foot as a unit of measurement. The natural foot (pes naturalis in Latin), an ancient unit based on the length of actual feet, is about 25 centimeters (9.8 inches). This unit was replaced in early civilizations of the Middle East by a longer foot, roughly 30 centimeters or the size of the modern unit, because this longer length was conveniently expressed in terms of other natural units:
1 foot = 3 hands = 4 palms = 12 inches (thumb widths) = 16 digits (finger widths)
This unit was used in both Greece and Rome; the Greek foot is estimated at 30.8 centimeters (12.1 inches) and the Roman foot at 29.6 centimeters (11.7 inches). In northern Europe, however, there was a competing unit known in Latin as the pes manualis or manual foot. This unit was equal to 2 shaftments, and it was measured "by hand," grasping a rod with both hands, thumbs extended and touching. The manual foot is estimated at 33.3 centimeters (13.1 inches).
In England, the Roman foot was replaced after the fall of Rome by the natural foot and the Saxon shaftment (16.5 centimeters). The modern foot (1/3 yard or about 30.5 centimeters) did not appear until after the Norman conquest of 1066. It may be an innovation of Henry I, who reigned from 1100 to 1135. Later in the 1100s a foot of modern length, the "foot of St. Paul's," was inscribed on the base of a column of St. Paul's Church in London, so that everyone could see the length of this new foot. From 1300, at least, to the present day there appears be little or no change in the length of the foot.
Late in the nineteenth century, after both Britain and the U.S. signed the Treaty of the Meter, the foot was officially defined in terms of the new metric standards. In the U.S., the Metric Act of 1866 defined the foot to equal exactly 1200/3937 meter, or about 30.480 060 96 centimeters. This unit, still used for geodetic surveying in the United States, is now called the survey foot. In 1959, the U.S. National Bureau of Standards redefined the foot to equal exactly 30.48 centimeters (exactly 0.999 998 survey foot). This definition was also adopted in Britain by the Weights and Measures Act of 1963, so the foot of 30.48 centimeters is now called the international foot.


Hand:

A traditional unit of distance, now used mostly to measure the height of horses. One hand equals 4 inches, 1/3 foot, or 10.16 centimeters.


Palm [1]:

A traditional unit of distance equal to the width of a person's palm. The palm equals 4 digits or 1/6 cubit, which is about 3 inches or 7.5 centimeters. This unit was used very commonly in medieval and early modern Britain. Similar units, all equal to 1/4 the local "foot" unit, were used throughout northern Europe.


Palm [2]:

A traditional unit of distance equal to the length of a person's hand, from the wrist to the end of the middle finger. In the English system this unit is equal to 9 inches (22.86 centimeters) and is usually called a span. The confusion between the two palm units is ancient. In Roman times, the longer unit was known as the palmus major and the shorter one as the palmus minor. In the nineteenth century, the 3-inch version was more common in Britain and the 9-inch version was more common in the U.S., perhaps because some Americans were familiar with the comparable Spanish palmo.


Palm [3]:

A name sometimes used in Dutch for the decimeter (10 centimeters, or about 3.937 inches).


Inch (in or ") [1]:

A traditional unit of distance equal to 1/12 foot or exactly 2.54 centimeters. The Old English word ynce is derived from the Latin uncia, meaning a 1/12 part; thus "inch" and "ounce" actually have the same root. The inch was originally defined in England in two ways: as the length of three barleycorns laid end to end, or as the width of a man's thumb at the base of the nail. The barleycorn definition is peculiarly English, but the thumb-width definition is generic. In fact, in many European languages the word for inch also means thumb: examples include the Dutch duim, Swedish tum, French pouce, and Spanish pulgada. In the history of English units the inch seems to come before the foot: after the Norman conquest of 1066 the foot was defined to equal 12 inches, rather than the inch being defined as 1/12 foot.



Digit:

A historic unit of distance equal to the width of a person's finger. Used in all the ancient civilizations of the Middle East and Mediterranean, the digit was equal to 0.75 inch or 19 millimeters with only the smallest variations. Typically, there were 4 digits in a palm, 16 in a foot, and 24 (sometimes 28) in a cubit. The word digit is from the Latin word for a finger or toe, digitus.



Cubit:

A historic unit of distance frequently mentioned in the Bible. The word comes from the Latin cubitum, "elbow," because the unit represents the length of a man's forearm from his elbow to the tip of his outstretched middle finger. This distance tends to be about 18 inches or roughly 45 centimeters. In ancient times, the cubit was usually defined to equal 24 digits or 6 palms. The Egyptian royal or "long" cubit, however, was equal to 28 digits or 7 palms. In the English system, the digit is conventionally identified as 3/4 inch; this makes the ordinary cubit exactly 18 inches (45.72 centimeters). The Roman cubit was shorter, about 44.4 centimeters (17.5 inches). The ordinary Egyptian cubit was just under 45 centimeters, and most authorities estimate the royal cubit at about 52.35 centimeters (20.61 inches).
 
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I can have the retainer flush with the 1.637 in tube.
 

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The Slimline seems to be a perfect solution to you retention problem....one less problem solved.
Just don`t do like somebody I know (not me)and lose that tool !
The AeroPack may have been too large in O.D. to access the engine and outside ring.Glad you found the SlimLine.

So ,how far can paint be now ? My outdoor paint season is pretty much done till spring.I guess you`re good for awhile in TN.

OBTW- I finally got some pics up of my Madcow Little John in the review section.Got to do a build and post in HP.

Take care


Paul
 
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The Slimline seems to be a perfect solution to you retention problem....one less problem solved.
Just don`t do like somebody I know (not me)and lose that tool !
The AeroPack may have been too large in O.D. to access the engine and outside ring.Glad you found the SlimLine.

So ,how far can paint be now ? My outdoor paint season is pretty much done till spring.I guess you`re good for awhile in TN.

OBTW- I finally got some pics up of my Madcow Little John in the review section.Got to do a build and post in HP.

Take care


Paul


As far as paint goes, I'll be happy to get a coupl'a coats of primer on it by early November. It's pretty plain to see that I ain't in a hurry about it.
I want to start another project, but I have to keep telling myself I can't. At least not until The ASM is ready for final paint.

I saw the pictures you posted of your Little John. The finishing details are outstanding. I like your camo color combination choises. I've seen that combination somewhere before, but I can't think of where. Your setting the standard pretty high for the rest of us CIT graduates.

I am looking forward to reading your build thread. I hope it does'nt take you as long to start a build tread as it did for you to post pictures. ;)
 
As far as paint goes, I'll be happy to get a coupl'a coats of primer on it by early November. It's pretty plain to see that I ain't in a hurry about it.
I want to start another project, but I have to keep telling myself I can't. At least not until The ASM is ready for final paint.

I saw the pictures you posted of your Little John. The finishing details are outstanding. I like your camo color combination choises. I've seen that combination somewhere before, but I can't think of where. Your setting the standard pretty high for the rest of us CIT graduates.

I am looking forward to reading your build thread. I hope it does'nt take you as long to start a build tread as it did for you to post pictures. ;)

:roll::roll::roll: I`ll try to work on my picture posting skills !

Paul
 
The fin material is basswood. I am filling the tight grain basswood has with Elmers 'Carpenters Wood Filler'. I've read other poeples prefered methods for application of CWF. Here's mine.

I fill the up the container with tap water and then pour it back out.

Now the top is wet and I can get the consistency I want by sticking my finger into the CWF.

Want thin? Use finger to slide some of the top.

Want medium? Dig finger in a little deeper.

Spread what CWF you have on your finger tip onto the basswood in little circles until it's spread out smoothly.

Repeat until fin is coverd.

Keep a damp dish towel handy to wipe off the CWF on your finger tips before it starts getting hard, otherwise it will scratch up the smoothed out CWF you just put on the fin.

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And here i am trying to rush my builds ;)

I agree ,the fins can be the most tedious part of any build ,esspecially that many.I`m working on a scratch built 4" BT Pershing 1A ,and those fins and covers got pretty boring ,but their done and glues on (through the body construction)

Paul
 
Wondering if the I.D. of the slim line retainer should be scored for better epoxy adhesion. Someone have experiance installing this type retainer?
 
Is it not ringed/ridged inside.I don`t have experience with Slimline ,but the AeroPack and PML HARM have almost what looks like threads inside for the JB weld to "key" into.I would have thought Slimlines had the same sort of idea.if this is not the case ,I would crosshatch the soft aluminum for a better grab.

Paul
 
Is it not ringed/ridged inside.I don`t have experience with Slimline ,but the AeroPack and PML HARM have almost what looks like threads inside for the JB weld to "key" into.I would have thought Slimlines had the same sort of idea.if this is not the case ,I would crosshatch the soft aluminum for a better grab.

Paul



OK, thank you for passing along the information Paul.



See avatar pictured above.

The ATACMS (Army Tactical Missile System) is the U.S. Army's current short/medium-range tactical ballistic missile system.

The MGM-140A, also known as ATACMS Block I, is powered by a single-stage solid-fuel rocket motor, and is guided to the target by a ring-laser gyro based inertial system. The warhead section consists of 950 M74 anti-personnel/anti-materiel (APAM) bomblets, which are distributed over an area of 33000 m2 (360000 sq.ft). The missile is launched from an M270 MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) launcher, and maximum range is about 165 km (100 miles). The ATACMS is tasked primarily with the destruction of tactical surface-to-surface missile sites, air defense sites, and C3 (Command, Control and Communications) complexes. 32 MGM-140A missiles were fired in Operation Desert Storm against Iraqi targets. Average unit cost (TY$) $0.82M


950 M74 anti-personnel/anti-materiel (APAM) bomblets, multiplied by 32 MGM-140A missiles = 30,400 M74 anti-personnel/anti-materiel bomblets.

How much ground area would the M74 anti-personnel/anti-materiel bomblets from 32 MGM-140A missiles cover?

Would that ground area be comparable to the size of one (or more) of the New England States?



I like it. Your tax dollars at work. Does someone have measurments or a RocSim of this missile they could share? It would be a cool build.

xmgm-140a.jpg

mgm-140-family.jpg
 
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The first one reminds me of the old Honest John test round colors (I built one in that color/roll pattern scheme)years ago ,and still have it ,but never flown.
Looks like that rocket would not be hard to build ,short & stubby.It may need further investigation to get proper dimensions.
I love that oddball stuff.In fact ,after I`m done some of my other scratch projects ,I have some of those A to A Ruskie missiles in mind ......those are always cool looking !

Paul

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bada bing - bada BOOM :jaw:
 

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Seems to me,that somebody here on these forums scratch built one of those some time ago.


Paul
 
Yah you know ,that would come in handy for some problem (read;PITA) rabbits and squirrels in my yard :D




Paul

:bangbang: <------- this works too !
 
OK ,now I see it was Layne (Pemberton Tech) who started that tread.Very cool build.

Paul
 
Got these measurments from Pem Tech's picture. After close exsamination of ATACMS photos, I rearanged the tail cone a bit.
 

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