Potter field FAA Waiver update

For 10yrs we have had a standing waiver of 15k with windows up to 24,000 MSL, the govt in its wisdom has changed their process for waivers above 18K.
The Potter field now has a standing waiver of 18K, after a LOT of work (5 months) by URRG BoD Dan Sheerer the FAA approved LDRS for a 20k waiver. A couple thousand short of what we are accustomed to.

We know it is close to the event, we filled this paperwork in January and found out the news last night, please plan your flights accordingly!

Welp, no need to mix the other half of that 7600!

Thanks for the work on keeping the waiver high for the East Coast!

Thank you so much for all your efforts Bill....
Much gratitude towards you..

Teddy

wclune said:

Hi All, after a LOT of work the FAA approved LDRS for a 20k waiver. a couple thousand short of what we are accustomed to.
For 10yrs we have had a standing waiver of 15k with windows up to 24,000 MSL, the govt in its wisdom has changed there process for above 18k.
The Potter field now has a standing waiver of 18K with windows to 20K. I know it is close to the event but please plan your flights accordingly!

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To clarify, that's 18,000' MSL and 20,000' MSL, correct? And potter is ~700 ft MSL right? Also, does this change in the FAA's system affect only LDRS or all future URRG launches as well?

Thanks for working to keep the waiver close to what it was despite everything!

Thanks Bill. Can you give us a sense of how many windows will exist each day? Or is it anybody's guess?

Much appreciate your efforts,

Actually it is 15,000ft ft standing with windows to 18,000 except LDRS 34, it is windows to 20,000 after much communication between myself and the FAA, including the folks down in Washington. Things have changed this year, I had to file a separate waiver for LDRS hoping for the 23,500 we usually have, but after almost 3 months it was cut to 20,000.

The altitude that we are required to call a window in for can vary daily depending on what the tower instructs us when we call to open our waiver each day. Probably be around 12,000 before we need a window on average, we will play it as we go. As I say, things have changed all over this year. To help our friends in Cleaveland and Rochester (which are great to work with by the way!) we will try to group the highest flights together.

Is there good recovery area for flights to 20K?

For that altitude why not just skip LDRS this year and come out to Airfest in Argonia???? Waiver to 50,000 feet.

Plenty of recovery to 20k, the FAA decided that this year anything over 18k would have to go to DC rather than our regional folks taking care of it. Teven though we are out in gods country, they went over the radius distances with a fine tooth comb, and a couple of houses and a rural road or two brought us in to about the 5000 ft mark, hence the 20k.
As far as daily windows as I said before, they may give us the whole shot each morning up to 18k before they require a window, or they may say 12 or 15k. We won't have an issue with the folks in the towers, they are very supportive of our operations.

Thanks. Sounds like a very nice area to fly. I can't make a LDRS this yeaar but for the flyers who do they should have a very good time.

shearpin said:

As far as daily windows as I said before, they may give us the whole shot each morning up to 18k before they require a window, or they may say 12 or 15k.

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Thank you (and many thanks for your work), but not quite the question I was asking. Can you give us a sense of how many windows to 20,000 will exist each day? Or is it anybody's guess?

All the best,

andrewlathrop87 said:

For that altitude why not just skip LDRS this year and come out to Airfest in Argonia???? Waiver to 50,000 feet.

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Yeah, okay... Good luck getting us all out there.....

codysmith said:

Yeah, okay... Good luck getting us all out there.....

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Yeah, about as likely as me showing up in New York....

It does sound like a nice field though, and those are getting scarce! That's why I don't have any problem driving to Kansas each year.....

So below 18K won't need a call-in?

Nate

nute said:

So below 18K won't need a call-in?

Nate

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nope

cvanc said:

Thank you (and many thanks for your work), but not quite the question I was asking. Can you give us a sense of how many windows to 20,000 will exist each day? Or is it anybody's guess?

All the best,

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We will work with ATC towers each day, we have had no problems opening multiple windows at big launches in the past, but as a courtesy to them we try to group the high flights together if possible to lighten the workload in the tower. In turn, they have gone above and beyond to work with us as much as they can. no guarantees on times or frequency, but it always works out A-OK.

conman13 said:

nope

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Well that makes things easier for me

Thanks a ton, Bill, for everything you're doing to get LDRS ready. I can't even imagine what kind of undertaking this must be.

Nate

Thanks to everyone who works on these waivers! I know quite a few people were planning on busting 20k, hopefully they are understanding.

nute said:

So below 18K won't need a call-in?

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Wrong. Each day the tower sets the call-in. We won;t know until that morning when it's called open.



As for recovery space for 20K shots, here's a 9K shot on video from the trailer (LDRS will likely launch from the treeline, so even more downwind space) Hard to describe, but most of the 15-20K shots at URRF and URRF2 were landing NW of that tree island. All nice soft dirt out there...aside from where my darkstar decided to go swimming in a ditch ><

[youtube]2LlFECiy5oc[/youtube]

For the video challenged: these shots are looking just a bit west of north. On the first one, the K805G was launched from the LDRS site, the K1100T from the trailer. Both went to about 7K. Wind was stiffer when I launched the K805, and I had a bit too much angle on the rod. The second shot shows a K1127 and J510W shot to about 9K Observations from taking photos at URRF URRF2 and our monthly launches, the upper level winds above that typically push rockets out into the farm's fields to the east and north. Of course, we've landed stuff all over the place, but putting a 20K shot onto dirt is very possible.

Not sure if he's doing it again, but Greg has typically headed up the off farm recovery, and has owners phone numbers and best directions to locations. when you go out....take water. It's further than it looks.

Since Washington is now calling the shots it wil be interesting to see what other launch waivers may be impacted....

My question is why is washington calling the shots now? what changed and why? BTW, this is NOT intended to be a political post.

RKeller said:

My question is why is washington calling the shots now? what changed and why? BTW, this is NOT intended to be a political post.

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I believe it has to do with controlling the airspace above 18K and which region is responsible for that, that is being looked at. The ATC for our field are Cleveland and Rochester, they used to be able to clear us above 23K, they are not allowed to anymore, hence further approval and review was required. This involved things getting the full fine tooth comb review, and it was determined our radius on the ground was only 5000ft or so, which led to the 20K ceiling.

All the folks I dealt with from the FAA were very professional and accomidating, but they have to cover their butts and abide by the regs they enforce. They actually really worked hard to find a way to grant my wishes, but by the letter of the lawn they just couldn't make it happen.

In a nutshell guys, if you are planning a flight to up to 20k you will be fine don't worry about the windows, Dan and I will make those happen. This only affects the very few guys who were planning flights above 20k. how many flights go over 20k at Potter in the past?? maybe 6.....

Research fliers are limited to 18k via the 90% rule still, right?

wclune said:

how many flights go over 20k at Potter in the past?? maybe 6.....

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I racked up 4 before I moved cross country...

And I feel your guys' pain - we waited 6 months on Washington to approve our 75k waiver this year. Finally came through in March.

Have fun everyone, some of my best rocketry memories are at Potter.

-Steve H

andrewlathrop87 said:

For that altitude why not just skip LDRS this year and come out to Airfest in Argonia???? Waiver to 50,000 feet.

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When I lived on the East Coast, I made two trips (three days driving each way, both times) to fly at Argonia. Now that I live in Texas, it's nice to have it close by.

That said, it's pretty ironic that when you were deliberately making your 98mm min dia project inefficient to keep it under the Argonia waiver, you bristled at suggestions to take it to Black Rock, citing that your truck gets 9 miles per gallon. But, now you're suggesting that all the folks in New York ought to skip LDRS and drive to Argonia (same distance as Oklahoma to Black Rock, a trip which you marked off as ludicrous even though it was directly applicable to your project).

Syclone said:

Research fliers are limited to 18k via the 90% rule still, right?

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Correct. The 90% research rule is a TRA rule, not a FAA rule.

The FAA folks that control the high altitude sector airspace at and above Flight Level 180 (18 kft) over Potter have not changed. It is still Cleveland ATC.

Until this year, the local high altitude ATC control center also approved the waiver. Starting this year, the FAA in Washington took over this function for all high altitude sectors nationwide, so whatever change that effects Potter could well effect any other clubs waiver.

Bob

Well put Bob.
That was exactly my point earlier when I said it will be interesting to see the impact of this on the waivers for other fields going forward.
This is not just an issue in the Northeast....