best way to launch a K500 rocket

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FlorinAndrei

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I've been building model rockets for a number of years, starting with very small ones, and moving up to bigger models. Back in high school (that's decades ago actually) I made a small model rocket from scratch, including a perchlorate + aluminum motor encased in a shotgun shell. Good times. In recent years I've used off the shelf motors exclusively (Estes, usually).

Recently I've started to build a much bigger rocket, following Dan Pollino's book 'I still have all my fingers'. I understand there are certain rules to follow with regard to launching a rocket this size. What's the best way to launch a rocket like this safely and legally?

Is it best if I join a local club? I live in Northern California, if that matters, but a quick trip to SoCal is quite doable (4hr30min to Mojave City from here).

Any suggestion is appreciated. Thank you.
 
Well, first off.... I would start with something slightly smaller. You haven't told us if you have used H or I motors at all. I would recommend joining a club and a national association such as the NAR or TRA. Both are great resources and they will help you get certified for what you are trying to do.

Good Luck!
 
First off, welcome to TRF!

Recently I've started to build a much bigger rocket, following Dan Pollino's book 'I still have all my fingers'. I understand there are certain rules to follow with regard to launching a rocket this size. What's the best way to launch a rocket like this safely and legally?

I picked up that book as well, though I haven't really taken a good look at it. My understanding is that the motor part of it isn't legal in CA, and I believe actually a motor in a PVC case isn't allowed anywhere as it's pretty dangerous. But I'm not the expert on these things so I should let others talk on this. Note also that this forum doesn't allow discussion of home-built motors except in the Research forum, which requires you to already be a L2 to join. But I assume saying that it's not okay isn't against the rules since ultimately we all care about safety of the flyer and anyone (or anything) around them as well.

Is it best if I join a local club? I live in Northern California, if that matters, but a quick trip to SoCal is quite doable (4hr30min to Mojave City from here).

I would definitely say yes. I'm not quite sure where that puts you, I also live in NorCal (Bay Area) but Mojave City (AZ?) is 8h away for me. There are at least two great clubs in north/central CA, LUNAR is a bit closer to the Bay Area and does HPR launches out of Farmington (near Stockton) during the winter months (the rest of the year the field is too much of a fire risk), I went to my first launch there 12/2014 and it was fantastic, I also made the March and April launches after missing January and February due to vacations. The field is great, and at least this year the weather (and turnout) was great at every launch. They also do monthly LPR launches at Moffett field (Mountain View).

There's also Tripoli Central California, which launches at Helm, CA (near Fresno, might be closest to you I'd guess). They try to do a launch every month, though sometimes they have trouble getting enough people to help out (most specifically it seems to be someone to take the equipment trailer to the site) or do a cleaning party instead of a launch before a bigger launch. They do two multi-day (Friday-Sunday, with night launches Saturday night) events each year, Dairy Aire in mid-May and October Skies in mid-October. I went to OS last year for the Saturday part, again a great turnout and a great site for launching, the farm was irrigating the field next to the launch which made things pretty messy (especially when the wind blew in that direction) but that was my only gripe. Weather unfortunately caused DA to cancel this year. I also did two of their monthly launches.

Both groups are very welcoming to new folks (and members of either cert org [NAR and Tripoli]) even though each group is affiliated with one of them, and you can fly without being a member of either club, TCC doesn't even have paying members, you just pay for each launch you attend if you plan to fly), though if you build the rocket from that book I'm pretty sure neither group will let you fly it at any of their events. They both run mailing lists / have email contacts, so it would probably be best to find out before you get too far along. You will of course have to follow the rules of the levels, so you'll have to work up to the larger motors and become a member of at least one of the cert orgs to get your L1 (and maintain membership to keep your level). Any K motor would require a L2, and I doubt any group would let you certify on a non-commercial K motor. There are a lot of ways to get into HPR that I think are less frowned-upon by our state (and the community in general). Believe me, the launches are a lot of fun to attend even if you don't have anything to fly yourself (okay, I've usually gone with rockets, though they haven't always come back in one piece when I was done. :p ). And there are a good number of people on this forum who attend those launches as well. But they take care of the waivers, provide all of the launch equipment, consider conditions for fires (very important in our state, especially with our drought), etc. So you can just go and fly (and helping out at the event is certainly encouraged as well, I've helped with setup and tear-down, and served as lookout at LUNAR's field). At the very least I would recommend checking one out even if you don't have anything to fly, though if you have model rockets all of these launches have low-power pads as well so you can show off what you have. The next launch from these two groups should be TCC on 6/20, I'm planning to go and hopefully get my L2 there.

I'm not as familiar with the other groups/launches in SoCal/NV/AZ, but I will say I got my introduction to HPR at the Black Rock Desert, and that is an experience of itself. I've gone to XPRS 3 years now (and will keep going, I do all 3 days for this one since its a longer drive for me, the first time I went purely as a spectator for the 3 days and it was still a lot of fun), AeroPac and other groups launch from that site as well (I think TCC is working on doing some launches from there as well). I've seen more exotic rockets at XPRS (and they get a much higher waiver there than at the Farmington or Helm fields), including some built entirely of PVC though I'd suspect the motor was still a 'proper' motor, though I know there have been home-built motors at these launches also (probably just not in PVC cases). It seems like NV's rules here aren't as strict (and I probably have the terminology wrong, XPRS and some other Black Rock launches are run as TRA Research [or EX?] events which allows some things that other launches do not, but I think you need to be a TRA L2 to take advantage of those), though you'd have to build the motor in NV as I understand it since it wouldn't be allowed in CA. Sorry for not being more clear on some of this, since I'm not there yet I haven't put as much focus on it, I just know what I can't do. :)

I got started with HPR building one of Giant Leap Rocketry's kits, the Almost Ready to Fly kits are complete and very easy to build (I've built the T-Bolt and Firestorm 54 kits), I got my L1 cert on my first flight. I've since moved on to more complicated kits from other vendors, though the kits themselves are still pretty easy, some come with detailed instructions, others with nothing at all, most don't give you all the bits you need (most often some parts of the recovery system are not included, followed by motor retention), so you have to make some decisions on your own and pick up the missing bits. And of course there's always scratch building that's totally up to you (but whether you can fly it or not is up to the officers responsible for the launch event). But I would definitely recommend sticking with commercial motors (especially if you plan to launch in CA, not even all of the commercial motors are legal in CA), all of the launches I've mentioned above are usually attended by at least one vendor (Bay Area Rocketry), he has a great stock of both AeroTech and Cessaroni motors, AT even has a 'DMS' line that you can fly without needing any motor casings/closures/etc., just prep the ejection charge, load the motor and fly.

I hope that helps, and hope to see you at a future launch!
 
I've been building model rockets for a number of years, starting with very small ones, and moving up to bigger models. Back in high school (that's decades ago actually) I made a small model rocket from scratch, including a perchlorate + aluminum motor encased in a shotgun shell. Good times. In recent years I've used off the shelf motors exclusively (Estes, usually).

Recently I've started to build a much bigger rocket, following Dan Pollino's book 'I still have all my fingers'. I understand there are certain rules to follow with regard to launching a rocket this size. What's the best way to launch a rocket like this safely and legally?

Is it best if I join a local club? I live in Northern California, if that matters, but a quick trip to SoCal is quite doable (4hr30min to Mojave City from here).

Any suggestion is appreciated. Thank you.

Rockets over 1500grams require an FAA waiver to fly, which means paperwork. Flying with a club is the best way to learn, since the amount of knowledge represented by club members can be staggering. NAR does not do experimental motors, TRA however does. Definitely get with a club, as they can tell you all about the issues of flying experimental rockets. Parts for aluminum experimental motors can be had for just a few dollars more (in the long run) than PVC and will be reusable not to mention way more SAFE. PVC when a motor catos fragments, a aluminum motor tube on the other hand will split and tear but not produce a large quantity of fragments.
 
Lookup Friends of Amateur Rocketry.

They're a non sanctioned club of rocketry enthusiasts. Tripoli has rules, but they are not the law in terms of certification. FAR is independent, and you can fly whatever size rocket/motor you want. There are some cool people out there too!



Braden
 
Lookup Friends of Amateur Rocketry.

They're a non sanctioned club of rocketry enthusiasts. Tripoli has rules, but they are not the law in terms of certification. FAR is independent, and you can fly whatever size rocket/motor you want. There are some cool people out there too!



Braden

Is you outa your mind? Tripoli's rules are based on FEDERAL LAW. Not just anyone can use, manufacture and possess high power motors. Tripoli's rules of certification, as well as NAR's satisfy those regulations.
 
Is you outa your mind? Tripoli's rules are based on FEDERAL LAW. Not just anyone can use, manufacture and possess high power motors. Tripoli's rules of certification, as well as NAR's satisfy those regulations.

Not only that, but they're insured. Just about everywhere you go, HPR is going to be regulated by the NFPA, which is codified into law. I've yet to see anyone verify a launchsite that isn't covered by this or the FAA.
 
As was previously mentioned, any discussion of homebuilt motors needs to be kept in the research forum. Likewise, we do not allow discussions of chemistry formulas and compositions outside of that forum. This rule is about safety but also to comply with several federal laws.

Other than that, I would say that you should probably consider getting involved in a club, get your HPR certification (L1, L2 and even L3) and see just how much the hobby has changed since you were last active. You can fly pretty big rockets without making your own. Then, should you still be interested, armed with that experience and certifications, and connected to other flyers who have even more of both, you will be well prepared to dive into whatever homebrew rocketry that interests you (and is legal).
 
I think it is going to be pretty much unanimous that you should get involved with a club and work your way up through the certification levels before making an experimental K class motor on your own. What you are talking about is definitely illegal in CA the way you are going about it, and probably very dangerous. That is a BIG motor if you've mostly flown Estes in the past!

Woferry gave some good info about clubs in northern and central CA and also in NV. Check them out. Club launches are a lot of fun.
 
To the OP

There are multiple rules and regulations regarding the use of hobby rockets promulgated by several agencies of the Federal government, even more by the Republic of California, and most local municipalities. You do not want to violate these laws, particularly after 9/11 where HSA and DOJ are also likely to get involved.

1.) Any rocket motor with more than 125 grams of propellant requires a written authorization from the FAA before you can launch it.

2.) While you do not need to be a Level 2 certified member of Tripoli to obtain authorization to launch a rocket with a home built motor, it is infinitely easier if you belong to TRA because you are required to have the permission of the landowner to launch from the property. If it's not your property, you will need insurance before any sane landowner will allow you to launch from their property, and the local, state and federal authorities will also require it along with local permits. Of course you could have your own insurance, but it will be a factor of 10 to 1000 time more than your TRA insurance will cost.

3.) Unfortunately in the Republic of California I believe you also need a state issued pyro-technician permit, and several other permits to transport California State Fire Marshall approved high power commercial rocket motors if I understand the state regulations correctly. AFAIK you can't legally transport non-CSFM approved motors on public roads in CA, so I believe that research rocketry is not possible in most CA locations. There are a few exceptions, FAR is one of them, but all motor manufacturing must be done on-site and supervised by a properly licensed individual and the completed motors can not leave the FAR property.

There are so many unique rules and regulations for high power rocketry in CA you need to discuss what you want to do with a TRA club in CA as they will know all the ins and outs of the CA state regulations. And with the enhanced terrorist alert state in the country, you certainly don't want to violate federal regulations using home propellants/motors because HSA and DOJ will surely get involved and then it will be up to you to prove you weren't trying to do something you shouldn't do.

Bob
 
Are you talking about a Cesaroni 54mm4G K500?

That monster will simply annihilate the rockets you are used to building. What kind of rocket will it be in? What sort of construction techniques will you be using, and how do you plan on parachute deployment?

There are plenty of people in northern California that can help you along the way, but nearly universally they will want to see smaller steps than you are currently looking at.
 
Are you talking about a Cesaroni 54mm4G K500?

That monster will simply annihilate the rockets you are used to building. What kind of rocket will it be in? What sort of construction techniques will you be using, and how do you plan on parachute deployment?

There are plenty of people in northern California that can help you along the way, but nearly universally they will want to see smaller steps than you are currently looking at.

OPs post reads such that it appears he is wanting information based on a homemade K500 class motor not a commecial motor.
 
OPs post reads such that it appears he is wanting information based on a homemade K500 class motor not a commecial motor.

Hah, sorry I missed that.

In this case your only legal option in California is FAR outside Edwards Air Force Base. Also, they will want you to ground test multiple motors before attempting to fly any rockets with said design.

Seriously, build a few kits with commercial motors of this class first.
 
My first rocket was a 1:1 scale Mercury Redstone. I don't know why you're all being sissies.
 
Seems like FlorinAndrei might not be coming back to read all our helpful advice. I hope he is still all in one piece.
 
You ever get the feeling that the ATF sends moles onto the forum to see if we're willing to help idiots be idiots with rockets except their moles are really bad and stupid?
I don't. I never have that thought.
 
You ever get the feeling that the ATF sends moles onto the forum to see if we're willing to help idiots be idiots with rockets except their moles are really bad and stupid?
I don't. I never have that thought.

They always seem to be in Cali...
 
As was previously mentioned, any discussion of homebuilt motors needs to be kept in the research forum. Likewise, we do not allow discussions of chemistry formulas and compositions outside of that forum. This rule is about safety but also to comply with several federal laws.

There's lots of good advice in this thread, and I don't disagree that there are TRF rules to be followed regarding what's discussed on the forum, but can anyone share what federal laws restrict what we can discuss, anywhere (in the USA), if we're not threatening someone or conspiring to commit a crime? Please don't take this personally - I hesitated before writing - but I really want us to be careful that we're not promoting a fallacy. I hope to be enlightened. Forgive me for straying from the topic.

Mark
 
There's lots of good advice in this thread, and I don't disagree that there are TRF rules to be followed regarding what's discussed on the forum, but can anyone share what federal laws restrict what we can discuss, anywhere (in the USA), if we're not threatening someone or conspiring to commit a crime? Please don't take this personally - I hesitated before writing - but I really want us to be careful that we're not promoting a fallacy. I hope to be enlightened. Forgive me for straying from the topic.

ITAR? Has to do with export of information, since this forum is internationally accessible.
 
ITAR? Has to do with export of information, since this forum is internationally accessible.

Understood. And I believe that applies to information not in the public domain. I just want to make sure we're not suggesting some inappropriate sense of superiority or that we have some super-secret knowledge not available elsewhere. Really, there are some very knowledgeable folk around here - even some who do know "secret things." I'm not diminishing that, just asking that we remember the virtue in being a bit humble, and try not to put ourselves on a pedestal.

Mark
 
Understood. And I believe that applies to information not in the public domain. I just want to make sure we're not suggesting some inappropriate sense of superiority or that we have some super-secret knowledge not available elsewhere. Really, there are some very knowledgeable folk around here - even some who do know "secret things." I'm not diminishing that, just asking that we remember the virtue in being a bit humble, and try not to put ourselves on a pedestal.

I agree to a point. But, we also do know things that others don't. I'd hate for any of that to wind up in the hands of those with ill intent, or simply just not prepared to safely deal with it. In reality crazy bastards blowing stuff up use sugar or other less stable things. But, yea...
 
Understood. And I believe that applies to information not in the public domain. I just want to make sure we're not suggesting some inappropriate sense of superiority or that we have some super-secret knowledge not available elsewhere. Really, there are some very knowledgeable folk around here - even some who do know "secret things." I'm not diminishing that, just asking that we remember the virtue in being a bit humble, and try not to put ourselves on a pedestal.

Speaking as a relatively new user and BAR who has asked a lot of questions, I don't see a major sense of superiority from the users at TRF except when you see a couple of things happen. The most obvious is on threads like this, where someone is obviously going by leaps and bounds past their experience in an unsafe direction. The kid who wanted to build a liquid fueled rocket after a few Estes motors is another good example. Even on those threads, there was a fair amount of good advice to the OP.

The second I've seen is where someone stretching their experience asks for advice and then tells many people with far more experience that they're wrong. People naturally get defensive when someone asks for advice and then says the advice is wrong. You saw this a little bit with the Blacksky project thread. I've heard that at work too ("If he doesn't believe a word I say, why is he paying $140/hour for my time and expertise?!").

The only other time I've seen the forum users really turn on another user or company is on the JetHitch thread, which I think is something of an outlier in terms of what we normally see on the forum. The Aerotech open thread that followed it was very civil.
 
Is you outa your mind? Tripoli's rules are based on FEDERAL LAW. Not just anyone can use, manufacture and possess high power motors. Tripoli's rules of certification, as well as NAR's satisfy those regulations.

You do have to be certified to purchase high power motors that are commercially made. However, the sales are restricted by manufacturers due to their own respect for Tripoli's rules and general safety.


That being said, you can make your own motors and fly them under your own waiver without certifications, as you are acting as an independent amateur rocketeer not sanctioned by a certifying body.

That being said, most non-sanctioned launches are non-insured. I do think that FAR has insurance, though.


Braden
 
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