Staging: Sustainer ignition questions

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mccrocketman

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I am new to staging, and I am trying to wrap my head around setting my timers to the correct ignition delay. From what little knowledge I have of aerodynamics and staging, the ideal time to ignite the sustainer is a few seconds after booster burnout so the vehicle can loose a little velocity ( therefore losing some drag force) and achieve its maximum altitude. Is there an equation out there for this? i have propulsion textbooks that only describe ideal flights (ie no drag). I heard of one in an old model rocketry magazine, but i cannot find it. Can anyone help with this?
Thanks,
WJM

EDIT: I am looking for the ideal ignition delay for maximum altitude
 
Im interested in this as well and am would like to do an air start sustainers - however for TRA a regular timer trigger can no longer be used and now must have some safeties in place before firing the sustainer. Realize that is not your question , sorry if highjacking ur thread.
 
What size rocket & motors are we talking about?

This will determine timing.

Then you can enter data in Openrocket and plot flight with a variety of motors to determine coast velocity and when to fire sustainer.

Also the time it takes to bring motor up to pressure must be considered. When first starting it is advisable to make staging delay short till you get experience.

Just last weekend I launched a 6in rocket with a 54mm 6xl in center. It had a 2.4 burn time.
I had 3---38mm 5grain for the outer. I wanted a 2 second coast, so the firing delay was set for 4.3 seconds, from main motor ignition.
It went off perfect. I used BP pellets in top grain [ala-CTI] for instant ignition.

Once you get a few under your belt, then you can go for altitude, things to be considered are wind [which can cause weather cocking if you wait to long in the coast, drag separation or firing a separation charge [that must be timed also] among several other things that enter into correct timing.

Flying really high thrust motors in booster[V-max...Warp-9] you can go with longer coast, than lower thrust motor.....etc.....etc.
To do this extensive knowledge of motors thrust curve is needed and then combining them [booster/sustainer] is a bit of magic & seat of the pants. Openrocket/Rocksim is capable of steering you in the right direction, but nothing can replace experience.
Start small and work your way up. I find a 3in diameter is a good size with room for everything needed, without being cramped. I have 54mm 2-stager's but I'm glad I did it first with a larger rocket and more room for electronics & conduit.
No formula I know of can take into account all the variables needed. [not saying there isn't one]
What you are looking for is to keep rocket velocity high enough before staging to keep it going straight. That will vary with size, length, weight, drag, etc. of rocket.

One last thing that is very important....things that can go wrong are many times more critical than a single stage rocket. It now becomes your responsibility for range safety during arming and igniter placement. You must exercise extreme care!
 
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I think a simple timing circuit can still be use for motors J and below on two stage HP flights.

As for determining how much time to set; YIKES!!!

To the best of my knowledge, and everybody I asked at KloudBusters, this is trial and error, with the errors being a real trial.

I’ve only flown one timer fired two stage and I set the ignition for one second past burnout. You really can’t go wrong with this unless your rocket is really heavy and underpowered.

What you don’t want is for the rocket to lose so much speed that it is barely stable when that second motor ignites and blows off the booster stage.
 
This is what can happen with a timer.

https://youtu.be/1VAkWgbCtA4


Steve

iirc Blackjack2564 was there when that happened (he mentioned it in another thread), evidently the problem was a change in booster motor from previous successful flights. It could have been prevented with at timer with safety lockouts, like a Raven, RRC3, Marsa54 (I believe), and one of the Altus Metrums (cant remember which), if one of those had been used and programmed properly the sustainer motor would not have fired and the chute would have deployed most likely saving the rocket to fly again (which it may not have been damaged, if the main deployed even horizonally).
 
Well...Golly ..Gee...Whiz....Gomer. Look what I found.
All the equations needed to figure this out, of course a background in calculous would help....lol

Let us know if this is what you wanted.

[video=youtube;NInB7GjpYOU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NInB7GjpYOU[/video]
 
I have done a boosted dart project w/ NASA University Student Launch Initiative w/ UNCC (I've been to ROCC launches a lot). We used 2 Raven 3s to light up some nichrome, and they fired right at booster burnout. I have started doing simulations w/ my PML MiniBBX/Terrier booster and I'm seeing what you are talking about. I need realistic weight added, but I get the idea. Thank you for the video(s). I'd like to eventually take this knowledge to a half scale Black Brandt X w/ Terrier booster. FYI the article that spurred this post is mentioned here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...aging-Optimum-Coast-Time-for-Maximum-Altitude
 
Hi blackjack

I PMD you about some igniters can you check your message section?
Thanks Nick
 
I found an analytical solution several years ago for optimal staging time delay for maximum altitude assuming that air density is constant and posted it here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...elay-for-Staging&highlight=optimal+time+delay

The solution is difficult and in order to make it easier there are graphs presented to find a graphical solution for different design parameters. Nevertheless, it might be more than what most modelers want to deal with. For impressive staging in the mid-power range about one or two seconds of coasting is all that is needed.
 
Im interested in this as well and am would like to do an air start sustainers - however for TRA a regular timer trigger can no longer be used and now must have some safeties in place before firing the sustainer. Realize that is not your question , sorry if highjacking ur thread.

Can you point me to the regulation that does not allow timers at TRA events? I know a few local clubs have adopted staging rules but I'm unaware of TRA policy.
Bob Brown
 
TRAs High Power rules and their Safe Launch Practices both just specify no "pressure roller" switches or mercury switchs AFAIK. Maybe there is a memo out there, about using timers w/o go/nogo option.
I also didn't find anything in a quick check of the NAR site. However safety is paramount why fly with less...
 
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Can you point me to the regulation that does not allow timers at TRA events? I know a few local clubs have adopted staging rules but I'm unaware of TRA policy.
Bob Brown

I know this has been discussed at TRA BOD meetings, but I was not aware it had been made a rule (yet).

Dale
 
Thank you for the analytical method! Both the video above and the link to the equations above are priceless to me-I'm planning on going to grad school for astronautical engineering, so any exposure to this is very valuable to me!
 
Can you point me to the regulation that does not allow timers at TRA events? I know a few local clubs have adopted staging rules but I'm unaware of TRA policy.
Bob Brown

Hi Bob I could be wrong on this but another member here on the forum indicated that TRA has sent out a notice to all their prefects that air starts on anything J or larger has to be more than just a timer. Hopefully somebody will chime in and clarify. I do not believe this is a rule yet however LDRS may also go by the new suggestions for safety. I do have a question into the L DRS section with the request for clarification of this.
 
Hi Bob I could be wrong on this but another member here on the forum indicated that TRA has sent out a notice to all their prefects that air starts on anything J or larger has to be more than just a timer. Hopefully somebody will chime in and clarify. I do not believe this is a rule yet however LDRS may also go by the new suggestions for safety. I do have a question into the L DRS section with the request for clarification of this.

Nick,
There is no rule restricting timer usage for staging rockets nor was there a notice sent to the prefects. While the Tripoli Board of Directors did indeed discuss this at length, our conclusion was that flyer education would be a better venue than rule making.
Take launch rods for example. Years ago, virtually every high power rocket has a big launch lug on the side. Then along came rail buttons. Flyers soon learned the advantages of flying off of rails which included no more rod whip and less aerodynamic drag on the airframe. Over the past few years the usage of large rods has almost dried up because we, as a hobby, found a better way.
Think of timers as "electronic launch rods". While timers work, there are many ways of igniting the sustainer while really increasing safety at the launch site.
The biggest argument I hear against using one of these smart altimeters is cost. Folks don't want to pony up extra cash even if deep down inside they may agree that using one is a better way. Let's face it, high power rocketry is expensive. Staged rocketry is like twice as expensive. We've all seen the video of the scary two stage flight that started this whole discussion. Had the flyer spent the $69 for the altimeter it would have not ignited the $65 sustainer motor and the flight would still have been ugly but would not have been nearly as dangerous. Net delta $4!
At my range, every once and a while someone will show up with a high power rocket that has 1/2" launch lugs on it. When I question the flyer about them I normally get "Well, I'm old school!" Folks, my translation of that statement falls into one of two categories. One, "I've had this rocket a long time and I'm too cheap or lazy to put rail buttons on it." or two, "I know there are better ways but I don't care about safety."
Don't go "old school" with staging electronics. Your safety and the safety of the folks around you should be very important to you.
Bob Brown
Vice President, Tripoli Rocketry Association
Prefect, Kloudbusters Rocket Club,
High Power Flyer
 
Thank you for clarifying the staging questions and the advice Bob. I definitely want to be safe and am currently n the market for an air start controller for my LOC and have been in conversation with Jim Amos at missleworks on the safest, reasonable way to do this.
 
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