That Guy's Back On Ebay.

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I had asked this guy why he wasn't answering anyone's questions, what happened to the 7 ft. version he was pushing last year, why would he not show a pic of the Phoenix Missile, did he get George's permission to print his photo, what happened to the other two people who bought the 7 ft. version (did they get a refund, are they still on hold?), noting one of his aka's had started off with negative feedback, I inquired into that as well. No answer. I actually told him this was poor business practice. No answer.
 
His only other listing is a Phoenix that is 15% larger than the Estes version. The diameter is 3 inches and it uses a plastic Estes nose cone. I have never heard of a 3 inch Estes nose cone for the Phoenix. The 2.6 inch Phoenix nose cones are hard to find, so where did he get a 3 incher?

I believe you can get a Pro Series cone that will fit.
 
Look at bottom right corner of drawing.........our very own George Gassaway drew them...LOL
Wonder if HE knows about this.?

Well, I do now. From this thread. The seller did not contact me.

At 1/32 scale, it would be about 82" tall (6.84 feet).

Main diameter of interstage and S-IVB stage, 8.125" (8.25" would be close).

Diameter of Service Module, 4.8125".

Diameter of first stage fuel tanks, 2.1875 (BT-70 close).

But it's sounding like everything may measure out at 0.00".

Massive warning bells going off that there are no images at all of what they say they are selling. With no seller history at all. Obviously some of you recognize this seller from one or more previous aliases and apparent bad deals and negative feedback.

It would be great if a decent 1/32 kit did exist and there were happy customers.

"You will get the number 2 kit."

Well, a buyer might indeed get something out of the transaction that's number 2 ..... :)

As for a 3" Phoenix Missile, the nose used by the Estes Big Daddy would be sorta close. But there is not that much difference in size from a BT-80 to a 3" tube. The mass of the Big Daddy was a LOT, a very heavy cone and sorta heavy tube, and a Phoenix missile would need more tube length. So it would need a lot more expensive engine power to fly a 3" model. Sure, a 4" model would be worth it to some people. But 3", when BT-80- can be so much lighter, questionable value. Now I am not even talking about that kit specifically, same would be true as to why bother to make a 3" one from scratch versus BT-80. Well, I did think of one, if a person wanted a heavy duty one that could use a very big powerful engine.

BTW - the BT-80 cone is easy to find..... if you buy the BT-80 V-2. Not the cheapest way , but a way (years back, the "Canadian Arrow" X-Prize contender, which looked like a V-2, was sold by Estes as a re-decaled version of their old BT-80 V-2 kit. I bought several at Hobby Lobby using 50% off coupons, mainly to get the nose cones).

- George Gassaway
 
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Has anyone watched th BBT to see if the number one kit actually appears in their apartment? Perhaps one does appear and thats where he got the ldea for his sham...
 
BTW - the BT-80 cone is easy to find..... if you buy the BT-80 V-2. Not the cheapest way , but a way (years back, the "Canadian Arrow" X-Prize contender, which looked like a V-2, was sold by Estes as a re-decaled version of their old BT-80 V-2 kit. I bought several at Hobby Lobby using 50% off coupons, mainly to get the nose cones).

- George Gassaway

Is that also the same nose cone as used by the Maxi Alpha Three?
 
Yes, that same BT-80 nose has been used for the Maxi-Alpha 3, Phoenix Missile, and V-2, plus a few other BT-80 kits thru the years (Like the "Colossus", which was a Maxi-Alpha-3 with extra tubes and different decals). When they came up with that V-2 (released in 1984), the key new part they had to create was the mold to make the blow-molded tail section. The existing Phoenix Missile nose was "close enough" in shape for a semi-scale kit like that.

IIRC there have only been two blow-molded BT-80 noses. The other is the scale-up of the blunt BT-60 nose used for the Big Bertha, used for such BT-80 kits as Fat Boy, Super Big Bertha, and Mega Mosquito.

Ah, make that three BT-80 noses. The Maxi-Brute Honest John (from 1975, not the one below) used a BT-80 body. But its nose was never sold separately (during those years Estes did sell noses separately), and IIRC that nose was not used in any other kits. The Maxi-Honest John did not last very long, ironically it was the best flying of the three (when the only motor choice was D12 power).

- George Gassaway

From 1984 catalog:
84est48.jpg
 
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I finally got an answer from him concerning the dimensions. They are what George has stated. I've also told him that there are people here who have an interest in his product. I can't help but feel he lifted George's dimensions and emailed them to me. His eBay description claims the rocket being over 5 ft. tall. Well duh. It's over an inch tall too but he was certainly giving a VERY ball park figure.

Here is his email to me: "It is a company of three rocket engineers recently started. If there is a gun company under that same name, looks like we will have to modify the name. It is in production now. Just a few details to work out on the outside of the rocket, which will be done soon. Also the height of the rocket is 82 inches, 6 ft. 10 inches."

- 2015forsn
 
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This guy is not aware of copyright infringement laws and his descriptions vary wildly. Last year when he gave me a different company's name, he pretty much told me the same thing, "a company that just got started." Never found it.
 
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This is one of the emails I sent to him: "Dear 2015forsn,

Some of my friends from The Rocketry Forum have sent you some questions and none have gotten a response. I must say, this is not the way to run any kind of business. No answers, no actual product, using pictures without permission, your Phoenix Missile has no photos of the real product, under one of your names, your first feedback was negative (pretty hard to accomplish if trying to establish a business name), I can't find any source called Ballistic Enterprises who is selling this item.

What exactly are you doing here? You keep promising the moon and the stars when you've nothing to really offer. You expect people to shell out money for a non existent product. I recall one or two people having bought this item last year from you. What happened? Did they get a refund? Are they still waiting? We'd would simply like our questions answered. Is this asking too much?"
 
Now his messages are flooding in: "You can contact Dan Marin in Longmont, Colorado, who already has one. If I have to relist it, I will include more photos."

- 2015forsn

Now I'm rather baffled. I don't know what to make of this guy.
 
Another question I had asked him" "Dear 2015forsn,

Hello, can you tell me where the CP and CG is located on this model? Thanks."

His answer: "I have to do some more research to answer your question. Will have it on the next listing."

- 2015forsn
 
Why is everyone so interested in picking this guy's listings apart? At best he does not have a clue and does not know the answers. At worst he is a bit of a fraud and he will either lie or just not answer. Nobody here is likely to buy from him, and anyone likely to buy from him is probably not going to see these questions. I mean, if tormenting an eBay seller is fun, have at it. I just don't see the point beyond sharing the warning that this guy is probably marginal at best.
 
I got a response today to my request for a picture of the actual kit, not some other model, and a picture of the parts. it's not really an answer, but a response:

Dear rengeeri,

If I have to relist it, I will include more photos.

- 2015forsn
 
Why is everyone so interested in picking this guy's listings apart? At best he does not have a clue and does not know the answers. At worst he is a bit of a fraud and he will either lie or just not answer. Nobody here is likely to buy from him, and anyone likely to buy from him is probably not going to see these questions. I mean, if tormenting an eBay seller is fun, have at it. I just don't see the point beyond sharing the warning that this guy is probably marginal at best.

He's displaying some questionable seller practice. Last year, he had the same Saturn measuring at over 7 ft. His present auction states over 5 ft. Now his emails say over six and a half feet. tall. He's gone under several aliases, negative feedback, no actual product/products. In any case, this is the very reason why I brought this up in the community.
 
I got a response today to my request for a picture of the actual kit, not some other model, and a picture of the parts. it's not really an answer, but a response:

He gave me the exact same answer when I asked him about the recommended motors.. "If I have to relist it... <fill in the blank>".
 
He's got some photos up of what does appear to be his project. He's also dropped the price down from $425.00 to $375.00. After all the brow beating, he seems to be coming through with something. He's got my interest now. I've emailed him saying that he did a good job of posting pics and asked when they will out and how many initially. I actually find myself standing in line more so than earlier. I hope he keeps this going.
 
He's got some photos up of what does appear to be his project. He's also dropped the price down from $425.00 to $375.00. After all the brow beating, he seems to be coming through with something. He's got my interest now. I've emailed him saying that he did a good job of posting pics and asked when they will out and how many initially. I actually find myself standing in line more so than earlier. I hope he keeps this going.

Interesting. When I was working out the 1/32 dimensions, I worked out that the Service Module would be over 4.8". I didn't list it since while there was a not quite right 4.6" tube around (I think still around), there could be other options such as say a 4.75" plastic tube. So I see now that the SM is molded together with the Adapter shroud, with a 2-piece fiberglass mold and some pretty nice detail.

Well, I'm glad to see it's not total fiction. I really hope he gets his act together, as there are still a lot of things left dangling. I mean how did he expect to ship a kit immediately to anyone who bought the listing that just ended, when there's no pics of all the parts (Escape Tower, Fins, other details) or the actual assembled model of that kit? Or the new listing ending Thursday, delivery from June 9th to 12?

This is Ebay, have it on hand when you list it, to sell it now, to ship it tomorrow, not Kickstarter.

New listing link with the new pics:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-32-scale...ll-laser-cut-parts-working-LES-/191590311117?
 
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Interesting. When I was working out the 1/32 dimensions, I worked out that the Service Module would be over 4.8". I didn't list it since while there was a not quite right 4.6" tube around (I think still around), there could be other options such as say a 3.75" plastic tube. So I see now that the SM is molded together with the Adapter shroud, with a 2-piece fiberglass mold and some pretty nice detail.

Well, I'm glad to see it's not total fiction. I really hope he gets his act together, as there are still a lot of things left dangling. I mean how did he expect to ship a kit immediately to anyone who bought the listing that just ended, when there's no pics of all the parts (Escape Tower, Fins, other details) or the actual assembled model of that kit? Or the new listing ending Thursday, delivery from June 9th to 12?

This is Ebay, have it on hand when you list it, to sell it now, to ship it tomorrow, not Kickstarter.

New listing link with the new pics:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-32-scale...ll-laser-cut-parts-working-LES-/191590311117?

Been my thoughts exactly.
 
Much as I hate to admit it and speaking as an architectural draftsman with 50 years of experience, that is a splendid drawing by George.
 
Much as I hate to admit it and speaking as an architectural draftsman with 50 years of experience, that is a splendid drawing by George.
+1! As a retired ME for the Atlas/Centaur and Shuttle programs these are extremely accurate for a hobby based drawing, reflecting what must have been hours and hours of research. For those who don't know, George is a national treasure when it comes to model rocketry and we are so lucky to have him here! Thanks, George, for all you've done for us in the past and for posting here. Kudos on the diet and sorry you got ripped off, but in a way, it's the supreme compliment. Ted-thanks for pointing out this superlative effort on the BP. I really hope this guy gets this project off the ground (pun intended) to get this to market. Looks like he's moved out of the trailer park-maybe there is hope.
 
I have trouble believing that someone can make enough money selling a kit like this for $375 to justify the time and effort. As a buyer that is considerable amount to pay, but from the manufacturer's side I can't see how he can make enough to cover his time and costs. The number of kits he might sell has to be quite small. Maybe he didn't think his business model through or he is doing it for the fun of it.
 
He's got some photos up of what does appear to be his project. He's also dropped the price down from $425.00 to $375.00. After all the brow beating, he seems to be coming through with something. He's got my interest now. I've emailed him saying that he did a good job of posting pics and asked when they will out and how many initially. I actually find myself standing in line more so than earlier. I hope he keeps this going.


To me those pics. look like nothing more than a failed/given up attempt to produce a kit. I could see maybe not wanting to cut/ make parts unless he has sold one, but if he is making one for the Big Bang Theory why not show all the parts that make up that one. The upper larger dia. body tube looks like it has wood veneer on it.
 
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Before I would plop down $375 plus shipping for this unknown quantity, I think I would go with one of these established vendors and use these kits as a guide for an upscaled scratch build. At least you'd end up with a nice 1:48 or 1:70 scale model and not a bag full of wishful thinking.

https://www.redarrowhobbies.com/sat1b.html ( 1.5 upscale )
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocke...h=1_87&zenid=230a0e78dc29c2b08c26ad4813e33de6 (2.1875 upscale)

I assume there are other kits by other vendors? Caveat emptor.
 
Before I would plop down $375 plus shipping for this unknown quantity, I think I would go with one of these established vendors and use these kits as a guide for an upscaled scratch build. At least you'd end up with a nice 1:48 or 1:70 scale model and not a bag full of wishful thinking.

https://www.redarrowhobbies.com/sat1b.html ( 1.5 upscale )
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocke...h=1_87&zenid=230a0e78dc29c2b08c26ad4813e33de6 (2.1875 upscale)

I assume there are other kits by other vendors? Caveat emptor.

It looks like the one comes with a scale model girl too, which is a nice bonus.
 
Thanks for the comments.

The Saturn-IB drawing was made up for Jay Marsh to use as his "workshop drawing", for FAI Scale at World Championships. The rules required a drawing to the same scale as the model. He had a 1/66 scale model. Years later I modified a copy of the file for 1/70 to match the Apogee kit scale.

The drawing for Jay took well over a year from start to finish. Not a full year of nothing but that, but a bunch of hours here, there, waiting for stuff, and so forth. A contact who used to work at MSFC in Huntsville got me copies of several NASA Saturn-IB manuals. For the most part not a lot in the way of dimensions, but seeing details on some things better, understanding the rocket better. He tried to get the ICD, "Interface Control Document" , for the IB, but MSFC did not have it. A massive NASA archive warehouse in Atlanta was supposed to have it, but it suffered "Ark lost in the Warehouse" syndrome as seen in the ending of Raiders of the Lost Ark. ICD's define almost all external details (above say rivet size), with dimensions to define everything. I did get hold of ICD's for the shuttle ET and SRB's, wow..... (more later)

Dimension-wise the most useful was an old NASA drawing set from around 1965 or 1966, sold by NARTS. For years, the NARTS Saturn-IB data was the gold standard. But there were some discrepancies, because the drawings were completed before the rocket ever flew, and some changes were made to some details that the drawing had wrong. One of the biggest errors was in the stringer sections used for the interstage adapter and the stringers of the lower part of the S-IVB 2nd stage. Also some errors involving the Apollo CM/LES, as well as nothing at all about the Boost Protective Cover over the CM.

Also collected pictures. Some were bought from NASA Archives (via photo-contractors, unfortunately one of the worst photo contractors was the one doing the NASA HQ sourced pics and most of the best Saturn-IB pics were NASA HQ. pics). Also got my own pics of the Saturn-IB standing upright at the Alabama welcome center on the southbound land of I-65 just south of the AL-TN state line. Plus pics of an interstage adapter wasting away at the US Space & Rocket Center. And some pics of the other complete Saturn-IB, on its side at KSC (well, not totally complete. The engines are not there, it has red plastic covers used for protecting the engines for shipping. And the LES Tower is a funky early design that IIRC only flew once on Little Joe QTV).

Here's a page on my website with the IB Drawings and some pics. It is an old "preview" page, my site host had a drive crash awhile back and a few things did not get restored right, but the preview remains there:

https://www.georgesrockets.com/GRP/Preview/Saturn-IB.html

Before I ever started on drawing the IB, I'd gone thru the process years earlier of drawing up the Little Joe-II data that was presented in American Spacemodeling (now Sport Rocketry) in 1991. Tom Beach used the same MacDraw software,e and knew the Joe better than I. So he made some tweaks to some of the drawings, and drew a few things form scratch (including al the launcher drawings, which were not in the magazine but are in the drawings on my website). So, anyway, I got a lot of practice in doing complex details, on a computer, from the process of creating the little Joe-II data. Drawings here:

https://www.georgesrockets.com/GRP/Scale/DATA/LJoeData.htm

After the Saturn-IB, in the late 1990's I finally got a viable Space Shuttle boilerplate to fly and do what I wanted it to do. So I set about building a fairly accurate shuttle model, doing some drawing work to help in building the 1999 model for NARAM. Then later, did more work to create a Workshop Drawing for use at the 2000 World Championships. The color version of that is still a suspended work in progress. My MSFC contact obtained the mother-lode of ICD data for me on the ET and SRB's, and some pretty good stuff on the orbiter. My drawings here:

https://www.georgesrockets.com/GRP/Scale/Shuttle-G/drawings.htm

Shuttle Data page with link to ICD drawing containing massive amounts of details:

https://www.georgesrockets.com/GRP/Scale/ShuttleData/ShuttleDataMain.htm

In High School I had 2 years of "Mechanical Drawing", but that was all relatively simple stuff. And of course using a T-square, pencil, and eraser. Nobody could have expected that about 10 years after I graduated (1975) that it would be practical to do drawings like those on a home computer. Or a practical home computer&#8230;.

Anyway, again, I hope that the poor track record of this kit offering is something that the guy works out, and does ship something good. If he delivers what he's described, as shown in the pics so far, that blows away the Sheri kits not only in size but in quality. I never had a Sheri kit, but was surprised by the crudeness of much that I saw in photos of the parts and "fuzzy tubes". Perhaps Red Arrow upgraded some of that when they took over.

- George Gassaway

At the US Space & Rocket Center, Saturn-IB interstage at right, Saturn-V 2nd/3rd stage interstage at left.

Interstage_1.jpg


FAI_Shuttle_at_1_72-s.gif
 
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