The case of the missing thread...

Peartree said:

No personal attacks.

You want to discuss the goings on here? Fine.

You want to speculate? Fine.

As long as it's civil there's room for that.

But we all know that talking smack about each other is over the line.

You've each taken a shot across the bow.

Any more and this thread gets locked too.

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Great points about the personal attacks.

Also, I'm glad to hear the discussion in general is fine.

Regarding permission to speculate, OK. But speculation has been part of the problem driving the escalation of these issues. And the reason people are speculating is that there are no answers being offered to serious questions. You and the other volunteers don't seem to have been given the answers either, so you are left to speculate too, and you are given the difficult task of calming a situation without knowing the full story. The thing that would help de-escalate the situation would be real answers, either provided directly to members, or provided to the volunteers who could convey it to the members.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I

Also, it seems like the site would only be a pain in the butt if the owner actually engaged with it. It doesn't seem like he does. Days and weeks go by with no engagement from the owner. This is more a neglected investment going downhill. Not a day-to-day hassle, like it might have been for Troj.

I also take issue with the idea that the forum is just a thing owned by someone else who can do whatever they want, and people should just shut up about it. It's a community too. People are concerned about friends being kicked out for no apparent reason and good contributing members, like our vendors, being driven out by bad policies. If you lived in a neighborhood where people were being evicted for no good reason and neighbors were choosing to move away, would you just go on unconcerned and say, "Oh, well. It's somebody else's rules. I better not ask any questions." Sure, the owner CAN run things that way if he wants, but I don't see anything wrong with community members raising reasonable questions and concerns.

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Been watching the two threads and the above parsed comments by Thrsty, pretty much parallels my own thoughts, much of which is based on my own experiences on another forum..

Peartree said:

No personal attacks.
...snip...
Any more and this thread gets locked too.

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I think that if some of the questions were actually answered the threads would stop. People are asking what the rules are and getting a response that equates to "shut up, he explained." I would like to make the friendly suggestion that some clarification of policy would help make the threads die down and do a lot to reduce the level of animosity you are seeing from members toward the owner and the moderators.

What you have now is a situation where some frustrated (and in many case quite valuable) contributors to this asset get no response from management until they step over a line. It is therefore no surprise that it is happening. I am not suggesting that any particular comment was justified, but this is simple human nature.

wfcook said:

I think that if some of the questions were actually answered the threads would stop. People are asking what the rules are and getting a response that equates to "shut up, he explained." I would like to make the friendly suggestion that some clarification of policy would help make the threads die down and do a lot to reduce the level of animosity you are seeing from members toward the owner and the moderators.

What you have now is a situation where some frustrated (and in many case quite valuable) contributors to this asset get no response from management until they step over a line. It is therefore no surprise that it is happening. I am not suggesting that any particular comment was justified, but this is simple human nature.

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Good points.

I would add.... there's lot that's not been explained even when someone tried to say in effect "shut up, he explained".

And that due to recent events, nobody knows what the line is. The rules used to be the line, although the rules have been enforced less and less to the point that the line already had moved (effectively - FINE - break the rules, but not TOO much!) and was fuzzy.

And now, the rules do not seem to mean anything anymore. i.e.:

A person can get instant perma-banned over some small thing regardless of the rules.

A person can get an infraction for complaining in a way that a moderator takes the wrong way and gets PO'ed about (PUBLICALLY issuing that infraction and threat of ban, despite longstanding claimed TRF policy to keep such things private).

And a person can attempt a personal stalking/harassment campaign against the site owner, posting his address and phone #, and get NOTHING.

Does that suggest there is a "line"?

Do the events of the last few days, as a result of the instant perma-bans, match the end goal for a happy community? See next to last sentence below from the owner over a year ago.

- George Gassaway

The vendor section was one of the drawcards of TRF. It's a ghost town now. Two popular vendors arbitrarily banned, another had their advertising cancelled for querying why their adverts weren't displaying, and still others that won't pay $300/yr to sell a few homemade parts or a kit they designed with their kid. Without vendors displaying their wares and the interaction with them thereof, TRF loses a lot of its appeal. This is a niche hobby, and not all vendors have the scale of CTI et al to afford $300. And to remove even more value for vendors, the additional advertising forced a lot of members to install adblocking software, so the vendor ads don't even get seen. When the vendors die off, so will the hobby.

Spot on!

matthew said:

The vendor section was one of the drawcards of TRF. It's a ghost town now. Two popular vendors arbitrarily banned, another had their advertising cancelled for querying why their adverts weren't displaying, and still others that won't pay $300/yr to sell a few homemade parts or a kit they designed with their kid. Without vendors displaying their wares and the interaction with them thereof, TRF loses a lot of its appeal. This is a niche hobby, and not all vendors have the scale of CTI et al to afford $300. And to remove even more value for vendors, the additional advertising forced a lot of members to install adblocking software, so the vendor ads don't even get seen. When the vendors die off, so will the hobby.

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matthew said:

The vendor section was one of the drawcards of TRF. It's a ghost town now. Two popular vendors arbitrarily banned,

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Hate to be a noodge, but shrox wasn't exactly "popular". "fringe" fits a bit better. I may dislike the way things are going here overall, but mountains and molehills.

DizWolf said:

Hate to be a noodge, but shrox wasn't exactly "popular". "fringe" fits a bit better. I may dislike the way things are going here overall, but mountains and molehills.

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Many issues in play. But none of them is how popular, unpopular, or fringe anyone is (BTW a previous comment by someone about Shrox could have been considered a personal attack. Indeed I no longer can find it so perhaps it was removed or is in some other thread).

It's how it happened to two longtime TRF members, for reasons that do not seem to be reasonable or within the long-established rules of this community forum.

And there are now at least four vendors gone, two insta-perma-banned and two who decided to leave due to how they were treated by management. This makes no sense.

Vendors for the most part provide a very useful service to attract people to the forum. As well, personal advice, how-to's, etc, that are a valuable benefit for the forum.

When the site added all those non-rocket ads, it lessened the value of the real rocket banner ads. When the complaints about all the other ads got really bad, people pushed the idea of using AdBlock Plus. And, yep, problem solved if using ABP. NO ADS. Meaning, no more rocket banner ads either. So the banner ads are no longer as valuable as they used to be.

So I think the recent decision to ban vendors for the vendor forum unless they pay for ads, is a mistake in the long run. "Penny-wise, pound-foolish" as the saying goes.

And the insta-perma-bans, well, I will honestly say, that I am NOT going to say how I really feel about it. Because if I truly said how I felt about those, while being careful NOT to break the TRF rules, you might be reading that I got insta-perma-banned.

A lot of people are scared of saying anything at all.

How does what has happened in the last week meet the goal of having a happy community?

BTW - I am going to say this, lest some foolishly jump to the wrong conclusion. I still like TRF. If I did not, I would not post here anymore. I'm hoping that things get settled out. Some people hated on TRF for years, long before it was bought, so they are overjoyed by these recent issues.

- George Gassaway

BTW - a video that Shrox posted last year. His digital version of the opening of the 1981 movie "Heavy Metal".

We should all be so fortunate as to have some kind of "fringe" talents like that....

[video=vimeo;108869209]https://vimeo.com/108869209[/video]

georgegassaway said:

Many issues in play. But none of them is how popular, unpopular, or fringe anyone is (BTW a previous comment by someone about Shrox could have been considered a personal attack.

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George, you really have to lighten up with the personal attack thing. The comment was not an attack, personal or otherwise. It was an accurate statement. I am quite sure Shrox himself would say he was fringe. This is the issue with the "personal attack" thing. It can be open for interpretation. For you it seems that line is crossed all too easily. Boy and wolf thing, just something to consider.

The vendor 'fee' wasn't well thought out. In my case, we started a parachute company just last year. I've been a member of this forum for maybe 10 years(?) and spent most of that time responding to posts as a contributor helping out others, and not as a vendor. So when we finally started our little parachute company I was surprised to find out that there was a fee to be able to post in the vendor forum. I understand a fee for any vendors who have spent the majority of time 'selling' their products over years, but in my case it's been the opposite.

The new owner should have spent some time in his own forum deciding on an initial fee structure that was customized for the vendors depending on their level of participation over years. After spending ten years contributing to this forum, like many others, I'm certainly not going to pay for the 'privilege' to advertise our business. The value of this forum consists solely of all of us who have contributed over the years, and it's too bad that those contributions haven't been recognized. It's pretty much a slap in the face, actually.

Well said, again.

Pat_B said:

The vendor 'fee' wasn't well thought out. In my case, we started a parachute company just last year. I've been a member of this forum for maybe 10 years(?) and spent most of that time responding to posts as a contributor helping out others, and not as a vendor. So when we finally started our little parachute company I was surprised to find out that there was a fee to be able to post in the vendor forum. I understand a fee for any vendors who have spent the majority of time 'selling' their products over years, but in my case it's been the opposite.

The new owner should have spent some time in his own forum deciding on an initial fee structure that was customized for the vendors depending on their level of participation over years. After spending ten years contributing to this forum, like many others, I'm certainly not going to pay for the 'privilege' to advertise our business. The value of this forum consists solely of all of us who have contributed over the years, and it's too bad that those contributions haven't been recognized. It's pretty much a slap in the face, actually.

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Pat_B said:

The vendor 'fee' wasn't well thought out. In my case, we started a parachute company just last year. I've been a member of this forum for maybe 10 years(?) and spent most of that time responding to posts as a contributor helping out others, and not as a vendor. So when we finally started our little parachute company I was surprised to find out that there was a fee to be able to post in the vendor forum. I understand a fee for any vendors who have spent the majority of time 'selling' their products over years, but in my case it's been the opposite.

The new owner should have spent some time in his own forum deciding on an initial fee structure that was customized for the vendors depending on their level of participation over years. After spending ten years contributing to this forum, like many others, I'm certainly not going to pay for the 'privilege' to advertise our business. The value of this forum consists solely of all of us who have contributed over the years, and it's too bad that those contributions haven't been recognized. It's pretty much a slap in the face, actually.

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Well, If advertising revenue goes down, I suspect that would probably be addressed. Kurt

"What have you done rocket wise today?"

What does that have to do with a missing thread?