The case of the missing thread...

Anybody else notice that a very active thread just vanished? (kinda like a few of our friends) This doesn't bode well, not well at all.

I had just composed a very lengthy and thoughtful response!

I sense a temporal incursion has taken place. Kinda like in Star Trek Voyager, "The Year of Hell" episode. Suggest a scan for chroniton particles.

I've got this MV Sewol feeling...---...---...

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Return to your cabins. Await further instructions. Everything is under control.

As I tend to miss something, which thread?

The one about Shrox being banned for "trolling."

They are afraid of the uprising...

[video=youtube;TYpYs9GBXwY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYpYs9GBXwY[/video]

Deleting a thread like that never helps it just makes things worse... That said, near the end of what I saw things were getting nasty.

Too tiring to think about. My plan is to just be myself until banned...then I'll be myself somewhere else.

[video=youtube;7bF38rT7et0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bF38rT7et0[/video]

Ravenex said:

Deleting a thread like that never helps it just makes things worse... That said, near the end of what I saw things were getting nasty.

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I agree, that deletion is not good for the forum either.

Interesting it was not just locked and with offending content still in it, "left as an example to others".

tmacklin was posting the home address of the site owner and encouraging people to call to harass him. tmacklin has expressed surprise he hasn't been banned long before all of this for violations of TRF rules.

Before that, some internet coward apparently used a sock puppet account to over-the-top personally attack cwbullet. That post was deleted quickly, as it deserved. So the thread was not deleted due to that one.

I would still like for cwbullet to explain what TRF rule that DizWolf broke for the infraction he gave him. Because with all the confusion going on, it was not clear to me what basis there was under TRF rules for doing so.

Indeed IIRC, TRF moderators have always said that they did not publicly divulge what punishments if any were given to those who violated TRF rules. His was the only one I can recall a moderator publicly posting that a person had been issued an infraction, with threat of banning. So perhaps cwbullet can also explain why that policy was broken?

Actually, most relevant and most important thing of all for the TRF moderators, admins, Admins, and ADMINS to answer is this:

Are the TRF rules still in effect, or not?

Because events of the last few days bring that highly into question.

- George Gassaway




Disclaimer - the new "Forum Contributor" icon I have recently added is unofficial.
It is to note that I've been contributing content to this site since 2004.

The rules are whatever the owners decide they are. They do not like a thread they delete it- temporal incursion complete.

I am quite certain Dizwolf was issued this infraction because he accused the moderators and/or admins capital or not of making up whatever rules they want. Cwbullet seems to feel this was directed at him (a personal attack on his character) and was insulted and issued the infraction. While I can see where Dizwolfs comment was harsh I don't think it was completely out of line given what had happened and I'm not sure it was directed at any one specific person. As someone who owns a forum, and has had to deal with many of these issues, I would like to encourage Cwbullet to reconsider that infraction and work this one out with Dizwolf personally.

Ravenex said:

Cwbullet seems to feel this was directed at him (a personal attack on his character) and was insulted and issued the infraction.

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I agree and this to me shows someone using his power to try and settle a personal grudge.

An issue came up and was discussed. We all got our feelings out. No need to leave a monument to it.

Back to the corners and wait for the next issue that pops up.

markkoelsch said:

The rules are whatever the owners decide they are. They do not like a thread they delete it- temporal incursion complete.

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Here are the TRF rules:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?13110-Rules-and-Guidelines

If the new owners have decided those rules are no longer in effect, or there is some other set of unpublished rules, this needs to be stated to the members.

IIRC, this online community has never been run by the "I am owner, I will do whatever the [blank] I want" no-rules type of mentality you describe (other now-gone rocket sites were run that way). So if that were indeed what is going on, it at least needs to be acknowledged. OTHERWISE, the TRF rules should be followed.

There have now been two mysterious instant perma-bans that do not seem to have been carried out under the TRF rules. As well, an infraction given without an obvious TRF rule being broken, and that infraction publicly posted in violation of past stated TRF policy of privacy in such cases.

- George Gassaway

DizWolf said:

An issue came up and was discussed. We all got our feelings out. No need to leave a monument to it.

Back to the corners and wait for the next issue that pops up.

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Good call. Exactly how I felt about my own dealio a few weeks ago.

Let's give the mods the benefit of the doubt. I think they are doing their best in a very bad situation. The real issue is poor decision-making at the top, and a lack of leadership from that level. The appropriate way to have handled that thread would have been for the owner to answer the questions that only the owner could answer. Also, the owner should be keeping mods in the loop and providing guidance in what seems like a developing crisis. I don't see that happening, so things are getting a bit hairy.

All the commissioned officers are dead or missing, and the chief petty officer may need to shoot a few sailors to keep a full mutiny from breaking out!

Or maybe that will backfire and make things even worse!

But seriously, this problem stems from the top, and I think the mods are struggling to keep an orderly forum in the absence of direction from the top. My ban a few weeks ago stemmed from complaints that should have been answered by the owners. The discipline came from a mod, but the problem was the owner, not the mod. Same for DizWolf's situation. Shrox's and Mike's ban are issues the owner should answer for, but the mods have to deal with the overheated threads.

The top does not care. Sorry to let that cat out of the bag. If they locked all threads, banned all of us, and only took the incoming hits from google and feed off the archives, they would continue to make money for decades.

I've used the term "internet slumlord" before and had it deleted. But it's an accurate description. They will bleed this thing out for years. And most importantly, that is their right to do....and good business. People can think this or that....and I do, but it IS theirs.

We can either get all bent about it, or accept it for what it is, and not stress over it.

I opt to just accept it for what it is, as long as those in power don't mind some pointed feedback from time to time.


It is what it is until someone else steps up with the tower in a colo and the bandwidth. I used to do all that. Do I want to again....sure, but thats another rocket I could be putting on the pad every month.

georgegassaway said:

Here are the TRF rules:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?13110-Rules-and-Guidelines

If the new owners have decided those rules are no longer in effect, or there is some other set of unpublished rules, this needs to be stated to the members.

IIRC, this online community has never been run by the "I am owner, I will do whatever the [blank] I want" no-rules type of mentality you describe (other now-gone rocket sites were run that way). So if that were indeed what is going on, it at least needs to be acknowledged. OTHERWISE, the TRF rules should be followed.

There have now been two mysterious instant perma-bans that do not seem to have been carried out under the TRF rules. As well, an infraction given without an obvious TRF rule being broken, and that infraction publicly posted in violation of past stated TRF policy of privacy in such cases.

- George Gassaway

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You may think that, but that is not reality. The rules are what the owners or mods think. If they feel like deleting a thread they can- they do not have to explain or justify.

Frankly, the amount of bad attitude running around here is amazing.

I think the owners are probably wondering why they are bothering. They cannot make that much money from this forum. Maybe people will be happy when one day the owners shut down TRF.?

markkoelsch said:

I think the owners are probably wondering why they are bothering. They cannot make that much money from this forum. Maybe people will be happy when one day the owners shut down TRF.?

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You're kidding right? Do you look at the traffic this site gets? What they paid for it was based on guaranteed hits. The fact we all keep posting is gravy on top of what these archives and the website's constant traffic. If we ALL walked away they'd still make money. Look at how many guests are on here compared to reg'd users.

Yes, that might be true. The issue becomes if the site becomes to much of a pain is the arse for them. When folks start calling them out and posting the address of the owner. It is totally stupid.

Frankly, folks need to grow up a bit. You are playing on the owners site- what they say goes. The mods should likely be on folks who do not understand this. If not, chaos reigns. If the rules change, and maybe they should, they rule set should be posted.

If the site goes down the tubes and is a pain for the owners I think shutting it down works. You may not agree, but I have seen a person driven a bit goofy by their website, and money or not it is not worth it. Also, why do you think Troj sold it, and does not have essentially any involvement in the site?

markkoelsch said:

Yes, that might be true. The issue becomes if the site becomes to much of a pain is the arse for them. When folks start calling them out and posting the address of the owner. It is totally stupid.

Frankly, folks need to grow up a bit. You are playing on the owners site- what they say goes. The mods should likely be on folks who do not understand this. If not, chaos reigns. If the rules change, and maybe they should, they rule set should be posted.

If the site goes down the tubes and is a pain for the owners I think shutting it down works. You may not agree, but I have seen a person driven a bit goofy by their website, and money or not it is not worth it. Also, why do you think Troj sold it, and does not have essentially any involvement in the site?

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I agree that trying to get at the owner outside the forum is ridiculous and over the top. That's just nuts.

I disagree that the site might become such a pain in the butt that the owner will simply close it. That could happen if the owner had built the community himself and could walk away without losing anything but the time invested. But this is a financial investment meant to make money, and I'm pretty sure the owner doesn't just want to walk away from that. They would sell it for something rather than just abandon it.

Also, it seems like the site would only be a pain in the butt if the owner actually engaged with it. It doesn't seem like he does. Days and weeks go by with no engagement from the owner. This is more a neglected investment going downhill. Not a day-to-day hassle, like it might have been for Troj.

I also take issue with the idea that the forum is just a thing owned by someone else who can do whatever they want, and people should just shut up about it. It's a community too. People are concerned about friends being kicked out for no apparent reason and good contributing members, like our vendors, being driven out by bad policies. If you lived in a neighborhood where people were being evicted for no good reason and neighbors were choosing to move away, would you just go on unconcerned and say, "Oh, well. It's somebody else's rules. I better not ask any questions." Sure, the owner CAN run things that way if he wants, but I don't see anything wrong with community members raising reasonable questions and concerns.

Maybe we need to now give a little breathing space for the volunteer moderators and admins to consult amongst themselves and hopefully with the owner as well. A holiday weekend with some major launches might not be the best time for this blow-up to have happened. Hopefully some damage control might be forthcoming in a day or two. But I hope it doesn't just get dropped and forgotten due to people getting tired of it and resigning themselves to the idea it's fine to ban people for unexplained reasons, and it's ok to let good contributers get fed up and walk.

I was referring to the instant perma-bans. The TRF rules which have existed for many many years do not allow for that unless someone made some outrageous posting, which does not seem to have been the case, at least by those two people.

Not until the internet coward who posted late last night with his personal attack on cwbullet, and tmacklin's posting the site owner's address and phone number suggesting people call to harass the owner (amazing that Shrox apparently got perma-banned for nothing that violated the rules and tmacklin is still here after all the "stuff" he's pulled, plenty of which is not allowed under TRF rules).

And ironically, it's the site owner who lit the fuse on the events of the last few days by banning Shrox and Uncle Mike, out of the blue, without consulting the moderators or admins. And left them to deal with the resulting mess. For which some have handled it well and some have not (IIRC only two mods or admins being involved in the Shrox thread. I sorta wonder if some mods are "sitting it out", or whatever, possibly upset by what happened without their input. I sure would be if I was a mod here).

And now it looks like there are no rules anymore. I've asked if they are in effect or changed, and lack of an answer to that in light of screwy things going on outside of the TRF rules, leaves the impression that the rules do not apply anymore.

It makes no sense to buy up a special online community, then set about doing things in a manner that will upset the membership of that online community.

markkoelsch said:

If the site goes down the tubes and is a pain for the owners I think shutting it down works. You may not agree, but I have seen a person driven a bit goofy by their website, and money or not it is not worth it. Also, why do you think Troj sold it, and does not have essentially any involvement in the site?

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This site is zero pain for the owners. Troj cared that's why it bothered him. The owners now will collect checks until the checks coming in become smaller than the checks going out. Then they will close the site down without even putting down their coffee cup to think about it.... and move on to the next thing of the day.

This forum is now but a drop in a bucket. A single cricket in an entire night field.

georgegassaway said:

I was referring to the instant perma-bans. The TRF rules which have existed for many many years do not allow for that unless someone made some outrageous posting, which does not seem to have been the case, at least by those two people.

Not until the internet coward who posted late last night with his personal attack on cwbullet, and tmacklin's posting the site owner's address and phone number suggesting people call to harass the owner (amazing that Shrox apparently got perma-banned for nothing that violated the rules and tmacklin is still here after all the "stuff" he's pulled, plenty of which is not allowed under TRF rules).

And ironically, it's the site owner who lit the fuse on the events of the last few days by banning Shrox and Uncle Mike, out of the blue, without consulting the moderators or admins. And left them to deal with the resulting mess. For which some have handled it well and some have not (IIRC only two mods or admins being involved in the Shrox thread. I sorta wonder if some mods are "sitting it out", or whatever, possibly upset by what happened without their input. I sure would be if I was a mod here).

And now it looks like there are no rules anymore. I've asked if they are in effect or changed, and lack of an answer to that in light of screwy things going on outside of the TRF rules, leaves the impression that the rules do not apply anymore.

It makes no sense to buy up a special online community, then set about doing things in a manner that will upset the membership of that online community.

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You tell 'em George! I'm a One Man Wrecking Ball! Suggesting that DizWolf drop a dime on the gutless wienie who who owns this "asset" instead of blaming one of the UNPAID moderators for this mess really is over the top and beyond the pale. Maybe if I posted your picture in the "post a picture that makes you laugh outloud" section, the moderators would finally give me the heave-ho? But don't worry George, I'll never post your address and phone number ANYWHERE!

I wouldn't be surprised if someone picks up the domain therocketryforum.com and cuts trf out.

No personal attacks.

You want to discuss the goings on here? Fine.

You want to speculate? Fine.

As long as it's civil there's room for that.

But we all know that talking smack about each other is over the line.

You've each taken a shot across the bow.

Any more and this thread gets locked too.