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  1. #1471
    Join Date
    8th August 2014
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    Rockford, IL
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    2,309
    Quote Originally Posted by Worsaer View Post
    My two cents: The catalog is a marketing tool, not a reference tool. It took me a while to figure out all I needed was the motor matrix (which reloads fit which cases), and the price list for the up-to-date list of products. Realistically, catalogs are dated artifacts the day they are published. If the motor matrix allowed you to click on the reload to display the Thrustcurve information, you'd have a useful reference for day-to-day use.
    That's an interesting idea... I could make that if I ever had a few spare hours. Actually, making a Google Doc that could be bookmarked like an app would be a piece of cake... Hmmmmmmmmm... I'll add that to the list of projects to do over winter break.

    -CzTeacherMan
    TRA #15280 - QCRS, Tripoli Wisconsin, WOOSH
    Level 1 - 9/28/2014 Wildman Sport on CTI H163 White Thunder
    Level 2 - 5/23/2015 Wildman 3" Darkstar CTI J400 Smoky Sam
    First Mile+ & Mach+ - 9/25/2015 Wildman Punisher CTI J360 Skidmark
    Level 3 - 5/15/2016 Wildman Gizmo XL-DD-V CTI M1540 Imax

  2. #1472
    Join Date
    18th March 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
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    3,265
    Quote Originally Posted by ATGM View Post
    Mark, unfortunately it is not as simple as that when you are dealing with a very specialized product. The catalog is being worked on but if you really want an up to date listing of products there is still no better source than the pricelist, found here:

    http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/upl...f_12_05_16.pdf
    Charlie, I do understand, and just to be clear I was not tying to be a wise guy. I know everyone is working hard- hence the suggestion of hiring someone to do the catalog. The least expensive rout no, but quite possibly the most time efficient.

    Happy holidays to you and the rest of the AT family.

    Mark Koelsch
    Tripoli 6155 L3
    Owner of http://www.rocketryfiles.com/
    Editor of http://www.thrustcurve.org/
    Keeper of the motor files

  3. #1473
    Join Date
    9th October 2013
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    573
    Quote Originally Posted by ATGM View Post
    We just recently updated the Master Motor Matrix which contains the specific information you are looking for. I put the matrix ahead of the catalog as far as priorities though a new catalog is in the works. This should be easy to print and something you can keep in your range box for reference.

    http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/upl...x%20Sheet1.pdf
    Hi Charlie,
    This Master Motor Matrix is nice, thanks! If I could make a few comments:

    1) Could the column headers please be at the top of every page, not just the first? Pretty sure this is just a checkbox in Excel.
    2) The final column (Notes) calls out when some special hardware is required, but seems to miss other cases. Like aren't there some 38mm motors that require a special forward closure? And I know there are two sizes of aft closures for 38mm, but not which loads require which one. Similarly, it should be marked which loads require the FSD vs. loads that don't. So I think there needs to be a lot more notes making it clear any time special HW is needed.
    3) There's an extra "m" in the J510W-14A's Length column. This column is also inconsistent on when there's a '"' mark vs. not, the header states the units as inches, so having the inch mark in some of the cells seems redundant, but this is mostly my OCD speaking.
    4) Any chance this could also be published in Excel form? For example I'd prefer to see the Peak Thrust column in lbs to make the T:W math easier, would be easy to add a new column and hide the existing one if I had the 'source', but a lot harder when I only have a PDF of it.

    If something like this was always kept up-to-date that would be fantastic, I could keep a copy (for me the pages starting at 38mm) in my range box and always have the reference on what motors fit (based on the cases I have and the length of each rocket) as well as the basic details I need to decide if it's a motor I want to try (appropriate for the rocket's weight & weather conditions, a propellant I like, etc).

    Something that confuses me a bit (never really noticed it until looking at this sheet, assuming it isn't a typo), how are the fastest and the slowest burning motors both Warp9 propellant? I.e. H669N/I49N, and I59WN/I1299N. Is that really just the difference between a cored grain and an endburner? If so, wow.
    Will Ferry (Launches & Videos) NAR #96512 (L2) / TRA #15328 (L2) / LUNAR #2759
    L1: 9/2013 @ XPRS, GLR T-Bolt "Thunderbolt" (R.I.P.), H148R
    L2: 4/2016 @ TCC Helm, Binder Design Excel w/DD "dd2.xls", J315R
    Impulse flown (flights): 2013: 767Ns (2), 2014: 4298Ns (8), 2015: 7486Ns (16), 2016: 11695Ns (18), 2017: 6502Ns (8)

  4. #1474
    Join Date
    6th December 2013
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by woferry View Post
    Something that confuses me a bit (never really noticed it until looking at this sheet, assuming it isn't a typo), how are the fastest and the slowest burning motors both Warp9 propellant? I.e. H669N/I49N, and I59WN/I1299N. Is that really just the difference between a cored grain and an endburner? If so, wow.
    Pretty much .

    The Fastest and Most Reliable and Transparent Way to Buy High Power Rocket Motors

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  5. #1475
    Join Date
    23rd July 2011
    Location
    Butte, MT
    Posts
    1,723

    AeroTech Open Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobob View Post
    Pretty much .
    Geometry (specifically surface area) matters!


    Steve Shannon
    Steve Shannon
    L3CC, TAP, Director, Tripoli Rocketry Association

  6. #1476
    Join Date
    12th February 2013
    Posts
    6,982
    Quote Originally Posted by woferry View Post
    Something that confuses me a bit (never really noticed it until looking at this sheet, assuming it isn't a typo), how are the fastest and the slowest burning motors both Warp9 propellant? I.e. H669N/I49N, and I59WN/I1299N. Is that really just the difference between a cored grain and an endburner? If so, wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobob View Post
    Pretty much .
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shannon View Post
    Geometry (specifically surface area) matters!


    Steve Shannon
    And I think that basically tells you that if you made an end burner out of any of the slower-burning propellants, you'd end up with a motor that burner forever and produced no thrust at all.

  7. #1477
    Join Date
    30th January 2016
    Location
    US > OK > NE
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    2,818
    Quote Originally Posted by ThirstyBarbarian View Post
    And I think that basically tells you that if you made an end burner out of any of the slower-burning propellants, you'd end up with a motor that burner forever and produced no thrust at all.
    This is exactly how delay grains (J/FJ propellant) work. Good for gas expansion / base bleed / drag reduction / tracking.

    I wish someone would make a disposable 13mm endburner smokey, just an inch or two stick of blackjack and a paper wrap, pintle, no nozzle. If it's sold as a smoke device you can't launch it. If it's sold as an A.1P, fire away :-)

  8. #1478
    Join Date
    12th February 2013
    Posts
    6,982
    Quote Originally Posted by dhbarr View Post
    This is exactly how delay grains (J/FJ propellant) work. Good for gas expansion / base bleed / drag reduction / tracking.

    I wish someone would make a disposable 13mm endburner smokey, just an inch or two stick of blackjack and a paper wrap, pintle, no nozzle. If it's sold as a smoke device you can't launch it. If it's sold as an A.1P, fire away :-)
    I would love to have a smoke generating "motor" with little or no thrust. It would be useful for a lot of cool effects. It would look great used in clusters, especially designs with outboard "pods", where you want smoke, but not necessarily thrust.

  9. #1479
    Join Date
    16th May 2015
    Location
    Cedar City
    Posts
    497
    Quote Originally Posted by markkoelsch View Post
    Charlie, I do understand, and just to be clear I was not tying to be a wise guy. I know everyone is working hard- hence the suggestion of hiring someone to do the catalog. The least expensive rout no, but quite possibly the most time efficient.

    Happy holidays to you and the rest of the AT family.
    Mark, no worries I understand that perspective. At the end of the day I end up being the graphic designer and it is a large undertaking. With that said I have been chipping away at it over the past few months with the goal of an updated catalog for early 2017.

    Thank you for the holiday wishes, we hope that you also have a nice holiday and a great 2017!
    Charles Savoie
    General Manager
    RCS RMC, Inc.

    NEXT LAUNCH: Hellfire - Bonneville Salt Flats



  10. #1480
    Join Date
    16th May 2015
    Location
    Cedar City
    Posts
    497
    Quote Originally Posted by woferry View Post
    Hi Charlie,
    This Master Motor Matrix is nice, thanks! If I could make a few comments:

    1) Could the column headers please be at the top of every page, not just the first? Pretty sure this is just a checkbox in Excel.
    2) The final column (Notes) calls out when some special hardware is required, but seems to miss other cases. Like aren't there some 38mm motors that require a special forward closure? And I know there are two sizes of aft closures for 38mm, but not which loads require which one. Similarly, it should be marked which loads require the FSD vs. loads that don't. So I think there needs to be a lot more notes making it clear any time special HW is needed.
    3) There's an extra "m" in the J510W-14A's Length column. This column is also inconsistent on when there's a '"' mark vs. not, the header states the units as inches, so having the inch mark in some of the cells seems redundant, but this is mostly my OCD speaking.
    4) Any chance this could also be published in Excel form? For example I'd prefer to see the Peak Thrust column in lbs to make the T:W math easier, would be easy to add a new column and hide the existing one if I had the 'source', but a lot harder when I only have a PDF of it.

    If something like this was always kept up-to-date that would be fantastic, I could keep a copy (for me the pages starting at 38mm) in my range box and always have the reference on what motors fit (based on the cases I have and the length of each rocket) as well as the basic details I need to decide if it's a motor I want to try (appropriate for the rocket's weight & weather conditions, a propellant I like, etc).

    Something that confuses me a bit (never really noticed it until looking at this sheet, assuming it isn't a typo), how are the fastest and the slowest burning motors both Warp9 propellant? I.e. H669N/I49N, and I59WN/I1299N. Is that really just the difference between a cored grain and an endburner? If so, wow.
    Now we are getting somewhere

    All good recommendations and I will use the notes section as suggested regarding the hardware. Both the excel and PDF file for this matrix will be kept on the website. I will post the links later for everyone's reference. The matrix will be updated whenever something is updated/added/edited, etc. The date of revision will be in the top left corner.

    If there are other ideas please let me know, thank you.
    Charles Savoie
    General Manager
    RCS RMC, Inc.

    NEXT LAUNCH: Hellfire - Bonneville Salt Flats



  11. #1481
    Join Date
    3rd August 2011
    Location
    Reed City, Michigan
    Posts
    3,364
    Quote Originally Posted by ThirstyBarbarian View Post
    I would love to have a smoke generating "motor" with little or no thrust. It would be useful for a lot of cool effects. It would look great used in clusters, especially designs with outboard "pods", where you want smoke, but not necessarily thrust.
    Truely, someone wants to turn his money into smoke!

  12. #1482
    Join Date
    23rd May 2013
    Location
    DFW Metro
    Posts
    1,686
    Quote Originally Posted by Woody's Workshop View Post
    Truely, someone wants to turn his money into smoke!
    Isn't that a large part of this?
    On the Bench: NARTREK Gold, Hi-Flier XL
    WANTED: Estes Kits: Space Shuttle #1284, Jupiter C #1976, Saturn 1B #1229 or #2048
    Electronics: Jolly Logic Altimeter Three, Jolly Logic Chute Release
    NAR #96147 NARTREK SILVER
    Dallas Area Rocket Society Member - Section #308

  13. #1483
    Join Date
    15th October 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by ThirstyBarbarian View Post
    I would love to have a smoke generating "motor" with little or no thrust. It would be useful for a lot of cool effects. It would look great used in clusters, especially designs with outboard "pods", where you want smoke, but not necessarily thrust.
    Off the cuff, I would say that you should be able to do this without too much difficulty. RCS has delay grains (Black Jack Propellant) for 18, 24 and 29mm motors sold in sticks about 8" long. With a small amount of work, you should be able to use an 18/20 reload case and one of these propellant sticks in an end-burn configuration as a smoke generator. I don't think you could get an appreciable thrust in that configuration, and I certainly wouldn't want to use it to set off a deployment charge, but to make smoke, I would think it would work.

    I'm not sure HOW MUCH smoke it would make, mind you... But then, if you wanted more smoke for a larger rocket, you could always use the 29mm or 38mm BlackJack propellant grains in a similar setup...

    Note: These are estimations, and I have not tried this type of configuration, but I understand some folks use the propellant sticks as full-size delay grains in some EX rockets.

  14. #1484
    Join Date
    30th January 2016
    Location
    US > OK > NE
    Posts
    2,818
    If you use an 18mm case, try HDK 22 or HDK 23. I'm guessing you'll get about 15 and 20s of smoke, although I think the smoke on the 23 will be thinner / lighter.

  15. #1485
    Join Date
    22nd September 2014
    Posts
    2,522
    Quote Originally Posted by woferry View Post
    Something that confuses me a bit (never really noticed it until looking at this sheet, assuming it isn't a typo), how are the fastest and the slowest burning motors both Warp9 propellant? I.e. H669N/I49N, and I59WN/I1299N. Is that really just the difference between a cored grain and an endburner? If so, wow.
    Absolutely! Come to lunch and we can talk grain geometry some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThirstyBarbarian
    And I think that basically tells you that if you made an end burner out of any of the slower-burning propellants, you'd end up with a motor that burner forever and produced no thrust at all.
    That too. Will, were you at XPRS for my EX flight? It came in nearly ballistic due to some bonehead misconfiguring the altimeter, then sat on the ground burning. Everyone watching thought it caught fire after hitting hard, but what truly happened was that I tried leaving the top grain solid. The other grains burned about two seconds, then upward coast, then downward coast, hit the ground and sat there for a while, still burning. That tells us how the top grain produced practically no thrust, and that it burned ten or twenty times longer.
    - punishing the punishers -
    lunar #26 / tripoli #15480

  16. #1486
    Join Date
    19th February 2009
    Location
    Auburn, WA USA
    Posts
    1,880
    Charlie,

    I see that valuerockets.com is gone (well, the domain is out there but it's not rocket motors any more). I also see on the Aerotech web store that you only have D21s in 4 and 7 second delays listed (and for quite a bit more than the last ones I got from valuerockets.com). Are there more D10s in the pipeline (I hope)?
    Bernard Cawley
    NAR 89040 L1
    AMA 42160
    KG7AIE

  17. #1487
    Join Date
    6th December 2013
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by BEC View Post
    Charlie,

    I see that valuerockets.com is gone (well, the domain is out there but it's not rocket motors any more). I also see on the Aerotech web store that you only have D21s in 4 and 7 second delays listed (and for quite a bit more than the last ones I got from valuerockets.com). Are there more D10s in the pipeline (I hope)?
    D10's are available in 3, 5, and 7 second delays http://www.buyrocketmotors.com/aerot...ck-single-use/ There's also a plugged option of the D10 available, and if you really want to be adventurous you can go the reload route using the RMS 18/20 hardware and the D13W and D24T reloads, both in 3 packs.

    The Fastest and Most Reliable and Transparent Way to Buy High Power Rocket Motors

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  18. #1488
    Join Date
    31st May 2011
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,476
    Saw the SUPER THUNDER H283 DMS passed certification. . Is it class 1 under 125g of propellant ?

    Kenny
    Fiesta Area Rocket Team - San Diego, CA

    TRA# 01113 L3, NAR # 38484 -DART, NAR Section #317
    GHS 2011 PB-X ROCstock XXXV GHS 2012 PB XI ROCstock XXXVII PBXII SPRINGFEST 2014 ROCstock XXXIX Oktoberfest 2014 LASTER Blaster ROCstock XL SPRINGFEST 2015 ROCstock XL1 ROCtober Oktoberfest 2015 LDRS XXXV ROCstock XLIII Holtville HAVOC Springfest 2017 --> ROCstock XLIV :dark:

  19. #1489
    Join Date
    21st December 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    416
    Any chance of different propellants for RMS 18/20 hardware?

    Always wanted to try a sparky reload in some of my LPR.
    QRS: 124
    AMRS: 32 L2
    Highest Altitude: 10,849 feet
    Largest Motor: CTI 1115J530 IM
    Current Projects:
    Purple Parrot, X Wing


  20. #1490
    Join Date
    16th May 2015
    Location
    Cedar City
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    497
    Quote Originally Posted by BEC View Post
    Charlie,

    I see that valuerockets.com is gone (well, the domain is out there but it's not rocket motors any more). I also see on the Aerotech web store that you only have D21s in 4 and 7 second delays listed (and for quite a bit more than the last ones I got from valuerockets.com). Are there more D10s in the pipeline (I hope)?
    Valuerockets.com was discontinued about a year ago in order for us to expand the distribution of the smaller 18mm and 24mm motors. Many dealers had requests for these motors but they were only available on VR. We decided to close VR and let the dealers include these with their orders.

    The D10s for whatever reason were not added to the AT store but they will be added today, thanks for pointing that out.
    Charles Savoie
    General Manager
    RCS RMC, Inc.

    NEXT LAUNCH: Hellfire - Bonneville Salt Flats



  21. #1491
    Join Date
    16th May 2015
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    Cedar City
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    497
    Quote Originally Posted by KenRico View Post
    Saw the SUPER THUNDER H283 DMS passed certification. . Is it class 1 under 125g of propellant ?

    Kenny
    Yes, it weighs in at around 97g of propellant weight.
    Charles Savoie
    General Manager
    RCS RMC, Inc.

    NEXT LAUNCH: Hellfire - Bonneville Salt Flats



  22. #1492
    Join Date
    16th May 2015
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    Cedar City
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    497
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaceManMat View Post
    Any chance of different propellants for RMS 18/20 hardware?

    Always wanted to try a sparky reload in some of my LPR.
    Without a new shipping exemption we will not be able to offer any sparky reloads smaller than 38mm. However, we can ship S/U hobby sparkys so if we were to make an 18mm sparky it would have to be single use for now.
    Charles Savoie
    General Manager
    RCS RMC, Inc.

    NEXT LAUNCH: Hellfire - Bonneville Salt Flats



  23. #1493
    Join Date
    15th October 2011
    Location
    Oregon
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    391
    Quote Originally Posted by ATGM View Post
    Without a new shipping exemption we will not be able to offer any sparky reloads smaller than 38mm. However, we can ship S/U hobby sparkys so if we were to make an 18mm sparky it would have to be single use for now.
    So much for the 24 and 29mm sparkies in the pipeline...

  24. #1494
    Join Date
    6th December 2013
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    TX
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    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by emckee View Post
    So much for the 24 and 29mm sparkies in the pipeline...

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  25. #1495
    Join Date
    1st July 2015
    Location
    British Columbia Canada
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    75
    They can be single use 24 and 29mm
    Nothing wrong with an aerotech single use motor

  26. #1496
    Join Date
    9th April 2011
    Location
    Plano, TX
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    2,484
    I was hoping for some 29mm sparkies but short of that, I'll be happy with some Super Thunder.
    Jarrett Dorough

    Most people are average

  27. #1497
    Join Date
    6th December 2013
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    TX
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    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by highflyer1968 View Post
    They can be single use 24 and 29mm
    Nothing wrong with an aerotech single use motor
    Not sure what the Dude would say here, but I agree! The Dude abides?

    The Fastest and Most Reliable and Transparent Way to Buy High Power Rocket Motors

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  28. #1498
    Join Date
    1st July 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
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    2,819
    Quote Originally Posted by highflyer1968 View Post
    They can be single use 24 and 29mm
    Nothing wrong with an aerotech single use motor
    29mm G75 Metal Storms already exist. Just need 24mm Es and 29mm Fs.

    18mm are neat and all, but unless it is an 18mm min diameter, there is no reason you can't build with a 24mm mount. The smaller composite motors are a PITA to get igniters into. My 2 cents at least. D21s are at least Blue Thunder so they light easily and have a decent size nozzle.

    Thinking the igniter problem isn't too bad if the smaller motors are bates grains instead or C-Slot. My 4 cents now.
    Kevin Wuchevich
    Tripoli Pittsburgh
    TRA 12238

  29. #1499
    Join Date
    19th February 2009
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    Auburn, WA USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATGM View Post
    Valuerockets.com was discontinued about a year ago in order for us to expand the distribution of the smaller 18mm and 24mm motors. Many dealers had requests for these motors but they were only available on VR. We decided to close VR and let the dealers include these with their orders.
    And I've had two vendors tell me they have them, one in this thread and one in PM, so I know they're out there. I'll need to check my current stock to see how soon I need to reorder.

    The D10s for whatever reason were not added to the AT store but they will be added today, thanks for pointing that out.
    You're welcome.
    Bernard Cawley
    NAR 89040 L1
    AMA 42160
    KG7AIE

  30. #1500
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    19th January 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by emckee View Post
    So much for the 24 and 29mm sparkies in the pipeline...
    During the latest episode of the Rocketry Show, Charlie mentioned that a 24mm single-use 'Sparky' 'E' motor may become available...

    Last edited by Initiator001; 4th January 2017 at 06:27 AM.
    Bob

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