AeroTech Open Thread

The last year that Estes sold D12 motors in a 3-pak (2014) their SRP was $17.49.

Estes changed the D12s to a 2-pak for 2015 with an SRP of $11.99 or $6.00 each.

Three AeroTech D13 reloads are $16.99 or $5.67 each.

If you already have the casing then the 18mm reloads are a better price than Estes D12s.

Initiator001 said:

The last year that Estes sold D12 motors in a 3-pak (2014) their SRP was $17.49.

Estes changed the D12s to a 2-pak for 2015 with an SRP of $11.99 or $6.00 each.

Three AeroTech D13 reloads are $16.99 or $5.67 each.

If you already have the casing then the 18mm reloads are a better price than Estes D12s.

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You beat me to it. I was about to say that d12's retail for $17.49 so this price is reasonable

Makes sense if you look at it from a retail perspective, but who pays MSRP for BP motors? If the point was to encourage people to TRY APCP, being comparable in price (though rarely available at a discount off MSRP like BP) isn't enough, especially with a $30+ investment and risk of loss of hardware.

9.99 made sense in context of the stated purpose of the valuerockets site. 16.99 doesn't, at least to me.

dmgrime said:

Makes sense if you look at it from a retail perspective, but who pays MSRP for BP motors? If the point was to encourage people to TRY APCP, being comparable in price (though rarely available at a discount off MSRP like BP) isn't enough, especially with a $30+ investment and risk of loss of hardware.

9.99 made sense in context of the stated purpose of the valuerockets site. 16.99 doesn't, at least to me.

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This is one of the problems. Too many of our products have been devalued from excessive discounting. Estes is one of the worst as my costs are often higher that sale prices from other places, and I have minimums to remain a dealer.

The price comparison to D12s is fair, and you bring up a good point. However, previously the prices were competitive with Estes C motors, and that was how I generally used them: in estes rockets with 18mm motor mounts that I wanted to give a bit more oomph. I almost never fly D12s anymore, opting for the 24/40 loads, so, in my use, these were alternatives to Bs and Cs, not 24mm Ds. All that said, I recognize that material costs change, and Aerotech has to deal with that. Yes it hurts us a bit, but they do what they have to do.

Nate

I look forward to hearing from ATGM on this issue.

You can't even compare Estes motors to a Aerotech motors. You are getting much more motor with Aerotech.

The real price value leaders are the 24mm "F" reloads. The F24-7W Reload Kit 3 pack 24/40 is priced at $ 19.79 at HobbyLinc. That being said, I love the noise and flame on the D13W.

crossfire said:

You can't even compare Estes motors to a Aerotech motors. You are getting much more motor with Aerotech.

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And alot more choices for thrust profile and propellant flavors

Kenny

dmgrime said:

Makes sense if you look at it from a retail perspective, but who pays MSRP for BP motors?

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The majority of Estes customers.

Initiator001 said:

The majority of Estes customers.

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AKA, not us.

You can't sell something for years at $10, then knock it up to 17 and expect to sell any. READAS: this is easier than just killing the product outright, and they know it.

sl98 said:

This thread is rather large so I apologize if this has been asked and answered. I was going to purchase some 18/20 reloads and I see the price increased 70% from 9.99 to 16.99. Why such a large increase? The 18/20 use to be a very economical alternative to BP motors.

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This has been asked a lot and there are several reasons for the increase, the most obvious being the cost of materials has risen over the last several years when we have not raised prices. Also, the valuerockets.com stuff was priced incredibly low. Compared to 3-paks of BP motors the price even with the increase represents value.

Hello Charlie. Curious if you had the time to research my question on post #511. Thanks Oz

DizWolf said:

AKA, not us.

You can't sell something for years at $10, then knock it up to 17 and expect to sell any. READAS: this is easier than just killing the product outright, and they know it.

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It was $10 in order to get folks to try AP motors. It has been a running "special" for 7 years and now the special has ended. Everyone here who is concerned with the price increase was never the intended target of the campaign. If we wanted to kill a product outright then we would just do that, not spend time discussing it.

ozwald said:

Hello Charlie. Curious if you had the time to research my question on post #511. Thanks Oz

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Oz, I spoke with Karl today and it looks like your liner was cut a bit too long. PM me your addy and I'll send a replacement. Or if you are comfortable trimming the liner that is also an option.

Initiator001 said:

The last year that Estes sold D12 motors in a 3-pak (2014) their SRP was $17.49.

Estes changed the D12s to a 2-pak for 2015 with an SRP of $11.99 or $6.00 each.

Three AeroTech D13 reloads are $16.99 or $5.67 each.

If you already have the casing then the 18mm reloads are a better price than Estes D12s.

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Estes has a minimum advertized discount of no more then 20% off if dealers go below that Estes can stop supplying said dealer. A few large dealers and Estes itself seem to be exempt so it hurts every one elsr

bob jablonski said:

Estes has a minimum advertized discount of no more then 20% off if dealers go below that Estes can stop supplying said dealer. A few large dealers and Estes itself seem to be exempt so it hurts every one elsr

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The problem is the dealers(distributors) are selling direct at dealer price or slightly above. I think the Estes buyin was around $50k.....which is way to much.
Hobbylinc is advertising 30% right now, so it obviously isn't enforced
AC supply sells at 40% off to the public....

ATGM said:

This has been asked a lot and there are several reasons for the increase, the most obvious being the cost of materials has risen over the last several years when we have not raised prices. Also, the valuerockets.com stuff was priced incredibly low. Compared to 3-paks of BP motors the price even with the increase represents value.

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Thank you for your reply. I can understand that the cost of materials goes up...but 70%? The 18/20 is difficult to purchase in the first place because few dealers carry them (I'm guessing because they are not listed on the AT price sheet). For me, the price increase represents a decrease in value and I'm unlikely to purchase more when my current supply is used. I will be curious to see if the unintended consequence of the sharp price increase and limited availability results in decreased sales and ultimate discontinuation.

sl98 said:

Thank you for your reply. I can understand that the cost of materials goes up...but 70%? The 18/20 is difficult to purchase in the first place because few dealers carry them (I'm guessing because they are not listed on the AT price sheet). For me, the price increase represents a decrease in value and I'm unlikely to purchase more when my current supply is used. I will be curious to see if the unintended consequence of the sharp price increase and limited availability results in decreased sales and ultimate discontinuation.

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Cost of most materials has more than doubled in the last 5 years, so it is reason to have that sharp of an increase.

tbonerocketeer said:

Cost of most materials has more than doubled in the last 5 years, so it is reason to have that sharp of an increase.

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Has every load seen this increase? Not being a wiseass, just curious.

DizWolf said:

Has every load seen this increase? Not being a wiseass, just curious.

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in a way, yes. Charlie stated that 18mm stuff was on a special for 7 years. The rest of the product line was at regular price during this time. Earlier this year, those prices went up about 10% if I remember right. Remove the special price, then add in the standard increase

God bless Hobby Lobby. 40% off coupon. I pass 3 of them a day. I buy motors one pack at a time. They've gotten so expensive it's the only way I can afford to have all 4 of my family fly.

ATGM,

Have you ever considered a Kickstarter type product development program? All that is happening in this thread is identifying what products you do not offer, which is a simple exercise of making a matrix with your cases along the x-axis and your propellants along the y-axis. Check the box for those that you offer and if there's no check come post about it here!

The issue with this thread is that you're counting on people's "internet word" that they will buy these products en masse when they become available. You may as well take that R&D money to Vegas and put it all on red because 50/50 odds are comparatively good odds.

My proposition is as follows...you develop a Kickstarter-type shopping cart where you generate a list of "possible offerings" as a result of people's posts here, or your own desired products. Offer the product at something like 80% of retail until you hit the necessary funds to make it happen, say $2500 or something. If you don't reach the minimum amount, the product gets put on the back burner and people get their money back. This is the only way to tie people's "internet word" or verbal intentions to their wallets...and ultimately to your products.

You would still develop other NPI on the side if it's not simply "add propellant _____ to the 38/120 case please."

At the end of the day you're still a hobby-oriented company with limited capability. Too many SKU's can be problematic, so if you're going to add them you may as well add them tactically.

^^interesting idea.

ATGM said:

Man that is pretty good analysis! We haven't put it on the stand yet but it is around an O5000X. DMS. We will leave the shredding to the researchers😀

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It would be nice if you could offer this as an Experimental Motor Kit, with all the parts and glue for us research folks.

With the CTI M2250 now OOP, I would love to see a 75mm M in Propellant X. You can't beat high thrust AND high impulse. It would be my go-to 75 for sure. I also really like the idea posted above ^^^ regarding product development and consumer demand.

Yes, Dan, fascinating idea...might very well have a brilliant one there.

I don't know about the manufactures, but from talking with the research guys, the binder they bought 10 years ago for $20 - $25 gal. now runs $75 and the AP they got for $4 a lb is now $10 or more if you're not buying 100 - 500 lbs, then it's still in the $7 range. Add in the labor costs for the manufactures and I'm actually surprised the prices have stayed as low as they have.

Handeman said:

I don't know about the manufactures, but from talking with the research guys, the binder they bought 10 years ago for $20 - $25 gal. now runs $75 and the AP they got for $4 a lb is now $10 or more if you're not buying 100 - 500 lbs, then it's still in the $7 range. Add in the labor costs for the manufactures and I'm actually surprised the prices have stayed as low as they have.

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Yeah, what we were buying it for 'in the day' (read: not too long ago) certainly ain't what it's going for now. Sans labor............................... Right out of the blue.

pyrobob said:

Yeah, what we were buying it for 'in the day' (read: not too long ago) certainly ain't what it's going for now. Sans labor............................... Right out of the blue.

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That's because what they were buying was surplus and what they are getting now is fresh made.