Clubs and Waivers

I'm starting this here because it was about to make another thread go off topic.

I've got a local rocketry social group I am building. Not a club. It may eventually have to become a club so we can hold insured launches. I'm looking at a field for that purpose as a just in case. And we will be focused on LPR/MPR. Only G, 80ns, 160.00N and 125g (assuming I do remember that correctly) and of course the 2 G option as per NAR and the blah blah, etc etc.

But just in case we did venture into HPR, how is the waiver alt determined? How would I be able to guesstimate the alt we might expect to be allowed?

And just for the record, the fact that a G80 is technically unrestricted yet a G138 going to only 1k requires a waiver bugs the absolute crap out of me.

See: https://www.nar.org/high-power-rock...a-launch-authorization/filing-for-faa-waiver/

A rocket flying on G138 would be a Class 1 rocket which doesn't require a waiver. Don't confuse FAA classes with high-power designations. See: https://www.doug79.com/stuff/HPR_metric9c.pdf

-- Roger

Ah-ha. See, I was misinformed. I was told by a club's NAR rep that anything requiring an L1 required a waiver. And I have to say, the NAR site is a little tough to navigate unless you pretty much already know what to look for.

Thanks for the help. That should get me headed in the right direction for figuring out exactly what we need to look at.

But just in case we did venture into HPR, how is the waiver alt determined? How would I be able to guesstimate the alt we might expect to be allowed?

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I have filed for and received waivers in several different locations throughout the years. You should know what altitude you need before filing. My experience has been that altitudes over 10,000'MSL can be more difficult to get approved. Your mileage may differ. If you are not having club launches I assume that you have a group of the same guys showing up every time and if you eventually start flying high power you need to know the expected altitude of your rockets. If not it would be good to find out through simulations and request the altitude you need.

Bottom line is the waiver will be determined by the FAA. They will consider the proximity of airports, traffic patterns, and stuff we probably don't even know about. Request what you think you need. If it is a problem they will get back to you and you can work it out together. Could be such a thing as a standing waiver of 10,000'MSL with half hour call in windows to 18,000' such as the waiver we have at one of our fields in Ohio.

Again, in my experience, the FAA is very easy to work with if you treat them with respect. Remember, you are asking them if you can break the rules. They are doing us a favor. Be nice.

According to safety codes, your max altitude can only be twice the length of your smallest field dimension. IN other words, if your launch/recovery area is 5000' x 2500', then you are limited to 2 X 2500', or 5000' feet of altitude. This should be factored into your plans if you plan to use NAR or TRA insurance.

The NAR page link in Roger's post is a pretty good reference to the current state of affairs concerning the FAA authorization process. JoeG's advice is right on the money as well. I think the NAR advisor that you talked to just gave you the short answer that covers 90% of the motors out there. Exceptions like the G138 come in because the FAA only considers rocket weight and propellent weight in their Class 2 threshold where the NAR and Tripoli add impulse limits to their Level designations.
After you start holding your own launches you'll be quoting chapter and verse on all this stuff soon enough !

First, consider starting a NAR section. The is no fee and all you need is 2 NAR members, one being an adult, for the first 2 years, then 5 after that. That way you have insurance and can easily (relatively speaking) obtain field use.

For a model rocket launch, you site must conform to the site requirements in the model rocket safety code.

For a high power launch, your site must conform to the site requirements in the high power rocket safety code.

High Power Launch Site Requirements. An open area where trees, power lines, occupied buildings, and persons not involved in the launch do not present a hazard, and that is at least as large on its smallest dimension as one-half of the maximum altitude to which rockets are allowed to be flown at that site or 1500 feet, whichever is greater, or 1000 feet for rockets with a combined total impulse of less than 160 N-sec, a total liftoff weight of less than 1500 grams, and a maximum expected altitude of less than 610 meters (2000 feet).
High Power Launcher Location Requirement. The launcher will be 1500 feet from any occupied building or from any public highway on which traffic flow exceeds 10 vehicles per hour, not including traffic flow related to the launch. The launcher will also be no closer than the appropriate Minimum Personnel Distance listed in the high power safety code table from any boundary of the launch site.

All of your launch activities must conform to FAR 101. Class 1 rockets (weighing not more than 1500 grams and containing not more than 125 grams of propellant (in all motors total) do not require a waiver (This extends into the low to mid H-impulse class.). Heavier rockets and/or rockets with more propellant require a formal written waiver.

More operational details are described here.

The ideal minimum field for high power is a 3000' diameter circle with is a tad over 162 acres. The maximum allowed waiver altitude for that field size is 6000 AGL however if there is any wind, that altitude drops quickly and the practical altitude limit in a 20 mph wind is 1500' AGL to recover in-field, and on most day a apogee deployment need to be restricted to not more than 3000' AGL.

If you help the FAA, they will help you. We used to have a 6000' AGL waiver at our launch site, and the Victor-3 Airway to Boston goes over our field at 7000'. The FAA must maintain a 2000' vertical separation and a 3 nm horizontal separation between air vehicles so during our launch Logan Approach control had to divert 60 flights per hour around the launch. They asked us if they could reduce the horizontal separation to 1 nm so we invited a controller to our next launch. Once we realized what their problem was we asked if we dropped our waiver request to 4900 AGL did the problem go away. They said yes. We always set our launch schedule in January, and submitted a request a waivers on ~10 days each yea, and got the approval back in early April. The year after we dropped the altitude to 4900' AGL, we put in our usual 10 day request and were happily surprised to receive a 365 day waiver approval with a 24 hour call-in! As the reduced altitude created no extra work for the controllers, the schedule became unimportant!

The lesson learned is to check where the air traffic is above your field and where the approaches are to the major airports near you and be realistic. It your waiver adds no additional workload it will be granted quickly.

An additional piece of information. If you have a large field and are requesting a waiver over 16,000 MSL, your waiver request may take longer to process. The separation between the low altitude control sectors and the high altitude control sectors is 18,000' MSL, and any waiver request above 16,000' MSL (to maintain 2000' vertical separation) is sent to Washington so that the appropriate low and high altitude sectors can coordinate. You are likely to obtain a full-time waiver to 16,000 MSL with call-ins to higher altitudes. Your high altitude waiver will usual start 10-20 minutes after the call-in and last for a fixed time period as the air traffic above 18,000 MSL is in long distance cruise mode and with air traffic moving at 10 miles per minute, it takes time to reroute flights.

Good luck and have fun.

Bob

FAA: Unless you observe the greater of the following separation distances from any person or property that is not associated with the operations applies:
Not less than one quarter the maximum expected altitude;
457 meters (1,500 ft.);

NAR:Launcher Location. My launcher will be 1500 feet from any occupied building or from any public highway on which traffic flow exceeds 10 vehicles per hour, not including traffic flow related to the launch.

With HPR, the minimum field size is 3000x3000 ft./ 1500 ft. radius clear of occupied buildings, highways with more than 10 vehicles an hour, adjacent properties with farmers not wanting rockets on them etc. That being said, you should be able to get a waiver of 6,000 ft. barring no air restrictions or club imposed restrictions. The bigger the radius you can swing the greater the possible waiver, again barring no other restrictions.

So it is not the altitude you want as a waiver to ask for, but the altitude your field size will allow. If you have a field in mind the best way to determine how high you might be able to go is to check it out on Google Earth.

OOPS - cross threaded/posted

I know our clubs waiver is restricted by the presence of a house nearby so we can only fly to 10k. otherwise we could have a higher altitude and we are only 10 or so miles from Pasco/Tri-Cities Airport (PSC). We do however have to take short launch breaks due to our local crop dusters field which is about 2500' from the launch site, and we also shut down temporarily for any directly overflight of a commercial aircraft.

This is a very good bit of information. Time to put on the study hat.

So in basic, an NAR section is covered by NAR insurance, yet there is no additional fee required to form the section? And for the first two years, me and my son, as NAR members, is all that is needed to form the section. After two years, we need at least 5 NAR members to maintain the section. That about cover it?

And once I see if we have the field, I'll get measurements and look at the feasibility of considering the waiver. For now, my goal is to get my community involved with building and flying more rockets safely.

Now I've seen clubs charge a non-member fee to "cover the cost of insurance". If a NAR section doesn't require a fee, why is a launch fee charged for this?

Some clubs have their own insurance, and bypass NAR and TRA. Probably so that they can have more control over the particulars. For instance, NAR and TRA insurance requires strict adherence to their individual safety codes. A club with its own insurance can write its own safety code, provided the insurance carrier is on board with it.

Kruegon said:

This is a very good bit of information. Time to put on the study hat.

So in basic, an NAR section is covered by NAR insurance, yet there is no additional fee required to form the section? And for the first two years, me and my son, as NAR members, is all that is needed to form the section. After two years, we need at least 5 NAR members to maintain the section. That about cover it?

And once I see if we have the field, I'll get measurements and look at the feasibility of considering the waiver. For now, my goal is to get my community involved with building and flying more rockets safely.

Now I've seen clubs charge a non-member fee to "cover the cost of insurance". If a NAR section doesn't require a fee, why is a launch fee charged for this?

Click to expand...

Yes, it's really that easy to start a NAR section. Straight from the NAR website. And NAR will often fund certain equipment requests up to $250 per year if funds are available that year.

it is however harder to sustain a club. Even though having a NAR Section is free, you will find our that you still have operating expenses. Most clubs charge members dues and most clubs charge members and non-members a launch fee. Even if you get the land for free, a good club owns their launch equipment which has to be purchased and maintained. Unless you can have a secure container on the field to store the equipment (which you'll have to purchase for $2K or so) , you will need a trailer to take the launch equipment to and from the field....You'll have to register and insure the trailer and if you sell food at the launch you'll probably have to get a local food vending permit.....

Our club CMASS is celebrating our 30th anniversary this year. In 1985, dues were $8 per year and the launch fields were free. The first trailer was a donated tent trailer. I joined circa 2000. The dues were still $8 a year, the fields were still free so we didn't charge a launch fee, and we sold a ton of hot dogs at launches to pay for our expenses such as building up and maintaining our launch equipment and replacing our decrepit trailer which we bought the following year with funds on hand. Circa 2003/04, the local towns needed money and started charging for field usage. Our field charges went from 0 to $3K in a year. And since we were launching a 3-4 different locations annually, we had to purchase food vending permits in each of them which also cost several hundred dollars. The following year we started charging a $5 launch fee for an individual adult, family group, or civic group. Members could purchase an annual launch pass for $20, so if came to more than 5 launches, it was cheaper to become a member and purchase an annual pass than to launch on your own. We got a lot of new member and paid for the fields, so after 30 years, the dues are still $8 a year, launch fees are still $5 a launch or $20 a year, and we still operate the club on hot dog sales.

Bob

Kruegon said:

Now I've seen clubs charge a non-member fee to "cover the cost of insurance". If a NAR section doesn't require a fee, why is a launch fee charged for this?

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There was a section fee in the past, so that information may just be out of date.

--Roger

I'm all in.... Let's get er done .I sent a nice long pm back before I saw the link to the forum...hope you got it.

Bat-mite said:

Some clubs have their own insurance, and bypass NAR and TRA. Probably so that they can have more control over the particulars. For instance, NAR and TRA insurance requires strict adherence to their individual safety codes. A club with its own insurance can write its own safety code, provided the insurance carrier is on board with it.

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The Indy insurance policies only indemnify the landowner from liability for the clubs actions which is the only way the club can get the landowners permission to use the land. These policies do not provide any insurance protection for the individual flyers, the club officials or club members against liability claims from damaged parties.

Bob

Kruegon said:

This is a very good bit of information. Time to put on the study hat.

So in basic, an NAR section is covered by NAR insurance, yet there is no additional fee required to form the section? And for the first two years, me and my son, as NAR members, is all that is needed to form the section. After two years, we need at least 5 NAR members to maintain the section. That about cover it?

And once I see if we have the field, I'll get measurements and look at the feasibility of considering the waiver. For now, my goal is to get my community involved with building and flying more rockets safely.

Now I've seen clubs charge a non-member fee to "cover the cost of insurance". If a NAR section doesn't require a fee, why is a launch fee charged for this?

Click to expand...

Most rocket club have general administrative club expenses and external launch expenses. Most clubs keep dues, which covers administrative, website and publicity costs, low to encourage membership, and charge launch fees to pay for the costs incurred for launches such as field rentals, and/or club equipment maintenance and repairs, etc.

In our club, dues represents 20% of club revenue, launch fees represent 60% of the club revenue, and food sales at launches represent an additional 20% of club revenue. Field rentals represents 60% of the club expenditures, and the remaining 40% of the expenditure is consumed in club operations such as website and publications costs, trailer maintenance and insurance, equipment maintenance and procurement, and rocketry outreach such as TARC, SLI, Scouts, CAP, 4H, schools, etc., and charitable expenditures. We also strive to maintain a bank balance equal to ~1 year's average annual expenses to permit prepayment of required field fees, trailer registration and insurance fees and food license fees as well as any emergency expenditures to insure unimpeded club operations.

Bob

On the subject of dues and launch fees, my local club (www.washingtonaerospace.org) charges something like $40 a year in dues. Coincidentally, that's exactly the cost for a family of non-member fliers to go to the big local launch on Memorial Day weekend. That launch (and I think most others) are free for members. Since it's a wash, I think many people join the club. I don't think they enforce payment for the smaller FAR 101 launches, since it's harder to control access and the publicity is probably worth more than a few bucks for kids to fly model rockets.

Kruegon said:

I'm starting this here because it was about to make another thread go off topic.

I've got a local rocketry social group I am building. Not a club. It may eventually have to become a club so we can hold insured launches. I'm looking at a field for that purpose as a just in case. And we will be focused on LPR/MPR. Only G, 80ns, 160.00N and 125g (assuming I do remember that correctly) and of course the 2 G option as per NAR and the blah blah, etc etc.

But just in case we did venture into HPR, how is the waiver alt determined? How would I be able to guesstimate the alt we might expect to be allowed?

And just for the record, the fact that a G80 is technically unrestricted yet a G138 going to only 1k requires a waiver bugs the absolute crap out of me.

Click to expand...

Why? There are already a few clubs near you with both low/mid as well as high power flying. Make a social group if you want, but just fly with the groups that have fields and waivers in place. Tripoli isn't going to set up another prefecture when there is one about an hour from you.

It's a thought is all. Our HPR club only flies half the year or less. The LPR club flies year round, but weather and work schedule have kept me from flying for months now. I was looking at having an alternative launch with the social group and have it open to the TRA fliers and the other NAR group. You can never have too many launches.

Kruegon said:

And just for the record, the fact that a G80 is technically unrestricted yet a G138 going to only 1k requires a waiver bugs the absolute crap out of me.

Click to expand...

The FAA doesn't require a waiver for a G138. You do have to be HPR-certified to fly one.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div5&node=14:2.0.1.3.15

Kruegon said:

It's a thought is all. Our HPR club only flies half the year or less. The LPR club flies year round, but weather and work schedule have kept me from flying for months now. I was looking at having an alternative launch with the social group and have it open to the TRA fliers and the other NAR group. You can never have too many launches.

Click to expand...

I understand the thought but you can have too many launches. What will happen is people stop coming often because there is another one next weekend...having a club takes more than just a few people, as you need equipment too. If you can find a suitable field for launching, take it to one of the clubs and see if we can get a waiver and have a summer field. I promise that tra won't set you up as a prefecture since tripoli Birmingham already exists.

mikec said:

The FAA doesn't require a waiver for a G138. You do have to be HPR-certified to fly one.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div5&node=14:2.0.1.3.15

Click to expand...

Yeah. Someone finally got me the info on that I was asking to find. The H128 and H210 also don't require a waiver. Time to study more.

tbonerocketeer said:

I understand the thought but you can have too many launches. What will happen is people stop coming often because there is another one next weekend...having a club takes more than just a few people, as you need equipment too. If you can find a suitable field for launching, take it to one of the clubs and see if we can get a waiver and have a summer field. I promise that tra won't set you up as a prefecture since tripoli Birmingham already exists.

Click to expand...

I'd like to find a field that we can have open access to. Not just be restricted to one Saturday a month. Like open access to the field every weekend. There's an insurance concern for an open field though.

So here's the scenario I'd like. Any club memeber can go launch any weekend. But if it's not an official club launch, you'd need to covered by your own insurance. Thus like the NAR membership. Dunno if TRA does the same or not. The waiver for HPR would be something interesting to work with. Not sure how hard it would be to get a waiver for that kind of flight schedule...

Kruegon said:

I'd like to find a field that we can have open access to. Not just be restricted to one Saturday a month. Like open access to the field every weekend. There's an insurance concern for an open field though.

So here's the scenario I'd like. Any club memeber can go launch any weekend. But if it's not an official club launch, you'd need to covered by your own insurance. Thus like the NAR membership. Dunno if TRA does the same or not. The waiver for HPR would be something interesting to work with. Not sure how hard it would be to get a waiver for that kind of flight schedule...

Click to expand...

That is a really bad scenario as you are confusing your individual interest with the best interests of a club. While you or someone else might want to be able to use a field on a moments notice, that's the formula for a club loosing a good field. All you need is for someone to do something stupid and the club looses its field and no one can launch.......

In most situations, a landowner allows rocket clubs to use their land because the club has section launch insurance and they know someone is in-charge. Clubs schedule launches on a regular basis so the landowner knows when the club is on the field and will plan their farm work around that schedule. If the landowner is naive enough to allow your members to use his land without the coverage of section insurance, and there is an incident, he has to understand that he has to go after the person launching the rocket and not the club. If the club member brings their children or friends who are not members of NAR, there may not be any insurance coverage at all. That's a risk that no landowner should take, nor should a club encourage it either.

And yes you can have too many launches, exactly for the reason Chris gave. In most clubs, 10% of the members do 90% of the work. Those 10% will show up for each launch and most will get completely burned out because they also have other things to do that they can't do if there is a scheduled launch. Once you loose those 10%, the club will disappear.

Bob

Kruegon said:

I'd like to find a field that we can have open access to. Not just be restricted to one Saturday a month. Like open access to the field every weekend. There's an insurance concern for an open field though.

So here's the scenario I'd like. Any club memeber can go launch any weekend. But if it's not an official club launch, you'd need to covered by your own insurance. Thus like the NAR membership. Dunno if TRA does the same or not. The waiver for HPR would be something interesting to work with. Not sure how hard it would be to get a waiver for that kind of flight schedule...

Click to expand...

Waivers require 48hours notice to be used.