Black powder vs. pyrodex

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molten_dragon

molten_dragon

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I'm just getting into dual deployment for the first time, and I need to buy some powder. I've looked at Cabelas and Gander mountain, as well as a couple local gun shops, and all I can find is pyrodex, no actual black powder. Will pyrodex work okay for dual deployment, or should I keep trying to find a place that has actual black powder?
 
I have heard the same that it can be used but I have only used Goex 4F.
Try one of the vendors at you launch site. They usualy sell it. Also, you can find it on-line at some reloading sites but they usually want you to buy bulk and a 1 lb. can will last a long time!
 
I've never use pyrodex but others have. You do have to contain the charge significantly to get consistent burning and gas generation. When people explain how to contain the charges I always think its like putting cherry bomb in your rocket for an ejection charge. I know it's not that bad, but still, I'll stick to the BP.
 
Try Bass Pro Michigan store locater....I found this, don't know what city your near:https://www.basspro.com/GOEX-Black-Powder/product/120829053247144/?cmCat=
Yes you have to ask for it, kept in back stored in a magazine. Don't be dumb enough to mention rockets...just ask for the BP and let it go at that. I have NEVER been asked what I want it for. Once the clerk di ask me what brand of fire arm I used, simply replied it was a gift for my cousin who hunts.....no problemo!
Or this at Gander:https://www.gandermountain.com/modp...Pioneer-FFFg-Powder&i=415566&r=view&from=grid


PS: this Bass Pro is in Auburn Hills Mi
 
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Nothing beats 4Fg BP, finding where to purchase is the hardest part. Unless you are a suspicous looking character or young most sellers dont care. Remember that for BP firearms 4Fg is used as a priming or pistol powder mainly.
 
Pyrodex works, reportedly. I did my own ground testing and pyrodex was hit and miss. The main concern I had was Pyrex was less energetic. The misses led me to use 4F BP solely.
 
Sounds like it's probably better to go with black powder, so I'll keep looking. I know not to mention rockets, but I didn't realize that they don't keep it out on the store shelves.

Will 3F work or do I need to find 4F?
 
If you find BP 4F stock up on it while you can. It does seem that it's becoming harder to find, even in Canada most gun shops seem to be going the smokeless powder way. I have & have used Pyrodex but much prefer BP 4F for reliability. If you have to use Pyrodex make sure it's Pyrodex P not Pyrodex RS. Pyrodex P is finer & will pack tighter.
 
timbucktoo said:
Also, you can find it on-line at some reloading sites but they usually want you to buy bulk and a 1 lb. can will last a long time!
Click to expand...
This used to be true (I'm *so* happy the days of 25lb minimum orders are gone...) Most places nowadays will happily sell you one pound of BP. Sadly, for that $15 pound of powder, you're also going to get hit for the $28.50 hazmat charge; thus, it makes sense to buy in bulk.

cwbullet said:
Pyrodex works, reportedly. I did my own ground testing and pyrodex was hit and miss. The main concern I had was Pyrex was less energetic. The misses led me to use 4F BP solely.
Click to expand...
glenbo said:
If you find BP 4F stock up on it while you can. It does seem that it's becoming harder to find, even in Canada most gun shops seem to be going the smokeless powder way. I have & have used Pyrodex but much prefer BP 4F for reliability. If you have to use Pyrodex make sure it's Pyrodex P not Pyrodex RS. Pyrodex P is finer & will pack tighter.
Click to expand...

Pyrodex, American Select, and a few other subs are all out there; in all cases, the finest granulation available is 3F equivalent.

If you find that you can't get the Holy Black, take a look at Triple Seven. It's made by the same company that makes Pyrodex, Hodgdon. A given volume of 777 has about 25% more energy than the same volume of Pyro (from memory, I need to look it up).

Super important: for historical reasons, in the shooting world, everything about BP is based on volume, not weight. I know that all of the guides I've seen for calculating ejection charges are based on weight. So, here's the trick to using a sub, at least in theory: figure out what *weight* of 4F you need, then work out what the *volume* of that weight of powder will be (Google is your friend. Hint: "Lee Precision" and "VMD"). Then, take that volume of your sub of choice, weigh it for future reference (although volumetric measure has its advantages), and ground test it ...

Whatever you do, don't load up the same weight of sub that the formula calls for of BP. You're almost guaranteed to have an issue, either an undercharge or an overcharge...

(All of this has me pondering Pyro/Trip-7 pellets ...)

HTH
 
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molten_dragon said:
Will 3F work or do I need to find 4F?
Click to expand...

Even 2F will work. I couldn't get any 3F or 4F when testing my last rocket, so I used 2F. You just have to be aware that they behave a little differently. 1 gram of 2F is not the same as 1 gram of 3F. There's only one place in the Phoenix metro valley to get real BP, and they were out of 4F last week, so I picked up some 3F. I have no question that it will work.
 
I ground tested with Pyrodex and it DID NOT work. I used twice the amount and did my best to contain it in the charge well. Pyrodex failed to shear the 2-56 nylon screws. It just made the inside of my rocket dirty.
 
Tonimus said:
Even 2F will work. I couldn't get any 3F or 4F when testing my last rocket, so I used 2F. You just have to be aware that they behave a little differently. 1 gram of 2F is not the same as 1 gram of 3F. There's only one place in the Phoenix metro valley to get real BP, and they were out of 4F last week, so I picked up some 3F. I have no question that it will work.
Click to expand...

I called them also if you are referring to Thunderbird Cartridge Company. I guess 3F it is but I can buy that locally here in Camp Verde.
 
I use pyrodex contained in rubber glove tip , but switching to BP working on lvl 3 project and not screwing around with pyrodex
 
YodaMcFly said:
This used to be true (I'm *so* happy the days of 25lb minimum orders are gone...) Most places nowadays will happily sell you one pound of BP. Sadly, for that $15 pound of powder, you're also going to get hit for the $28.50 hazmat charge; thus, it makes sense to buy in bulk.




Pyrodex, American Select, and a few other subs are all out there; in all cases, the finest granulation available is 3F equivalent.

If you find that you can't get the Holy Black, take a look at Triple Seven. It's made by the same company that makes Pyrodex, Hodgdon. A given volume of 777 has about 25% more energy than the same volume of Pyro (from memory, I need to look it up).

Super important: for historical reasons, in the shooting world, everything about BP is based on volume, not weight. I know that all of the guides I've seen for calculating ejection charges are based on weight. So, here's the trick to using a sub, at least in theory: figure out what *weight* of 4F you need, then work out what the *volume* of that weight of powder will be (Google is your friend. Hint: "Lee Precision" and "VMD"). Then, take that volume of your sub of choice, weigh it for future reference (although volumetric measure has its advantages), and ground test it ...

Whatever you do, don't load up the same weight of sub that the formula calls for of BP. You're almost guaranteed to have an issue, either an undercharge or an overcharge...

(All of this has me pondering Pyro/Trip-7 pellets ...)

HTH
Click to expand...
Energy per unit volume/weigh is not the issue. Burn rate and ignitability is the issue.

BP burns much faster than any of the BP substitutes at any pressure. That's a fact.

BP burns fast enough that all the BP charge will ignite before the propellant grains begin to rocket away from the ignition source. The BP substitutes burn slower, so the unburnt grains can be dispersed by the initial gas release before they get enough heat to ignite. This is why you need more substitute than you think if you do not confine the BP substitutes.

If you confine the BP substitute in a centrifuge tube and packed in with wadding or any other similar rigid wall container that will not release until the internal pressure rises to several hundred psi, the BP substitute will ignite. And you should not need a larger charge to product the same quantity of gas.

The other factor is grain size. 4F BP has a smaller grain size than 3F which is smaller than 2F. 3F BP will work if you can't get 4 F.

For Pyrodex you need the small grain size pistol grade version. The big pellets are not suitable as they burn very slow.

BP is much preferred as it is just much simplier to use.

Bob
 
Rafael said:
I called them also if you are referring to Thunderbird Cartridge Company. I guess 3F it is but I can buy that locally here in Camp Verde.
Click to expand...

I am. And the guys down at TCCI are good people. They did not have an ETA on 4F either.
 
I just thought of something. Isn't a LEUP now required to purchase Pyrodex for other than antique firearm (e.g. rocketry) use? If so, there is no real advantage to using Pyrodex over black powder.
 

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