Creating Plugged Motors

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I don't see much difference between packing in dog barf, bentonite clay (kitty litter) or pouring in some epoxy ( a sure thing). No matter how you do it, it's putting stuff in a motor that aint supposed to be there. If dog barf is ok what is wrong with one of the others? Drilling delays was a no-no a few years back, now common.
Do you think Estes would give permission to plug a booster motor if asked?

I was wondering similarly: what's so different about ramming in dog barf and pouring in epoxy that one should be allowed under the safety code and the other not?

As for Estes giving permission, don't hold your breath. I come from the engineering profession, and I don't believe any company would say that's OK without going through a whole new qualification test program; they'd never accept the liability. I also don't believe the certifying agencies would accept such an OK without the testing even if Estes did say it; they'd never accept the liability either. Estes would probably be happy to do the certification IF they could be convinced that doing so would increase sales by enough to justify the cost. But really, who among us can honestly say "I'd buy a dozen more D12-0 engines if only I could fly them at sanctioned events after plugging them with epoxy?" And say it again about E9-0s and E12-0s and C6-0s, etc.? Because each one is a separate certification program.

I'm not knocking Estes, this is just the expected and reasonable behavior of for-profit companies.

I think the better chance would be to make a case to the NAR safety committee (or whatever is the official name of the appropriate body) to have the safety code amended or clarified such that pouring in an epoxy plug is not considered modifying the engine.
 
However if you pack dog barf tightly against the propellant grain, you do not have an air gap, so you shouldn't get the big spike. Furthermore, the compressed dog barf leakage will lengthen and attenuate any acoustic spike that could be generated. Any damage done by a booster engine to a distant bulkhead is due to the breakthrough of the propellant and the sudden release of ~100 psi chamber pressure into the void. The compressed dog barf prevents any sudden release of pressure.

Remember that gas escapes through the path of least resistance so the compressed dog barf isn't greatly different than an epoxy plug or thick clay cap. Without the plug or cap or dog barf, there is no resistant at the forward end of the motor and the full combustion pressure is applied to the bulkhead. With mass in the path, there's complete or almost complete resistance and the gas has no choice but to exit out the nozzle.

Bob

Well Bob, there's only one way to find out for sure. :wink:
 
It seems to me that the problem arises because there is no quality control when the consumer alters the product. No one can know for certain that the epoxy was properly mixed in the proper proportions or adequately bonded to the casing. Therefore, no one is willing to accept the risk. But so what? The worst case scenario is that the plug fails and, in the OP's concept, destroys the timer that ignites the sustaining motor/s and the airframe becomes kindling. On multi-staged and clustered designs there is always an increased risk of failed ignition somewhere in the train. Sounds like a typical NAR club launch to me.
 
It seems to me that the problem arises because there is no quality control when the consumer alters the product.



Yea, I guess we should just concentrate on drilling delays, get that down pat first. Too many bonus and short delays reported. Don't really know if it's the drillers fault or manufactures, lots of the same even with delays used as they come without drilling.
 
I think the better chance would be to make a case to the NAR safety committee (or whatever is the official name of the appropriate body) to have the safety code amended or clarified such that pouring in an epoxy plug is not considered modifying the engine.

I can tell you that you'd have at least one person on the S & T committee who would back you up but you'd have to have a really compelling argument to get past NFPA 1122:

4.19.2 No person shall dismantle, reload, or alter a single-use model rocket motor.

I wouldn't want to try to explain how an epoxy plug is not altering a motor.

Any NAR member can petition the NAR Board to make a change. Ted usually asks for input in the Electronic Rocketeer a few months before the board meeting. You've got nothing to lose by asking.
 
Bill, if you remove all the worthless speculation from the forum, there would only be a few build threads and Newbot articles left to read. :wink:

I didn't say remove it. I just didn't put much value on it.
 
I can tell you that you'd have at least one person on the S & T committee who would back you up but you'd have to have a really compelling argument to get past NFPA 1122:

4.19.2 No person shall dismantle, reload, or alter a single-use model rocket motor.

I wouldn't want to try to explain how an epoxy plug is not altering a motor.

Any NAR member can petition the NAR Board to make a change. Ted usually asks for input in the Electronic Rocketeer a few months before the board meeting. You've got nothing to lose by asking.


Well, maybe I should just go ahead and surrender myself to the authorities before they come looking for me? :wink:
 
Well, maybe I should just go ahead and surrender myself to the authorities before they come looking for me? :wink:

Evidently they don't care because I keep sending them your name and you're still here.
 
I can tell you that you'd have at least one person on the S & T committee who would back you up but you'd have to have a really compelling argument to get past NFPA 1122:

4.19.2 No person shall dismantle, reload, or alter a single-use model rocket motor.

I wouldn't want to try to explain how an epoxy plug is not altering a motor.

Any NAR member can petition the NAR Board to make a change. Ted usually asks for input in the Electronic Rocketeer a few months before the board meeting. You've got nothing to lose by asking.

You know, that's not a bad idea. The honest truth behind this is that there is no true risk to safety in doing this. Follow the NAR safety code. Keep your distance. Fire properly. This is a lot safer than a G80 cato at the min 30' required.

Now a second thought. I seriously doubt it, but could this fall under the TRA ex launches as acceptable? There's a TRA club that launches fall to spring that I could launch it at if it does.

I am all for safety. I'm overly safe where kids are concerned. I'd be more than happy to static test the motor for issues and record the video and results. I could plug several motors and burn them off under fix and controlled conditions. Then the case and plug can be inspected

I could even set a digital scale and measure the oz of forward pressure throughout the burn as compared to an unplugged motor. My own time. My own yard. My own motors. My own risk.

Does anyone think that this level of extensive testing could be a boon to the argument? I could record and log every single aspect. Provide an amount of data to the point a book can be written. Argue the point of its safety based upon a preponderance of test data.

OR learn in a safe and controlled environment the extent of its lack of safety.
 
Quote Originally Posted by billspad View Post
I can tell you that you'd have at least one person on the S & T committee who would back you up but you'd have to have a really compelling argument to get past NFPA 1122:

4.19.2 No person shall dismantle, reload, or alter a single-use model rocket motor.

I wouldn't want to try to explain how an epoxy plug is not altering a motor.

Any NAR member can petition the NAR Board to make a change. Ted usually asks for input in the Electronic Rocketeer a few months before the board meeting. You've got nothing to lose by asking.




You know, that's not a bad idea. The honest truth behind this is that there is no true risk to safety in doing this. Follow the NAR safety code. Keep your distance. Fire properly. This is a lot safer than a G80 cato at the min 30' required.

Now a second thought. I seriously doubt it, but could this fall under the TRA ex launches as acceptable? There's a TRA club that launches fall to spring that I could launch it at if it does.

I am all for safety. I'm overly safe where kids are concerned. I'd be more than happy to static test the motor for issues and record the video and results. I could plug several motors and burn them off under fix and controlled conditions. Then the case and plug can be inspected

I could even set a digital scale and measure the oz of forward pressure throughout the burn as compared to an unplugged motor. My own time. My own yard. My own motors. My own risk.

Does anyone think that this level of extensive testing could be a boon to the argument? I could record and log every single aspect. Provide an amount of data to the point a book can be written. Argue the point of its safety based upon a preponderance of test data.

OR learn in a safe and controlled environment the extent of its lack of safety.



I'm sure there have been thousands of them made and used without incident, it is just you can't bring them to a sanctioned launch or expect to be covered by insurance should the need arise. Nothing wrong with having 4.19.2 in the safety code just need to further define it a bit. It is to prevent the things you see all the time on You Tube. Dismantling, reloading, adding a pound of BP to the ejection charge, general altering in a malicious way is a bit different than trying to safely cap an 0 motor to prevent ejection of motor, blowing apart rocket, or flaming return of rocket.
 
You know, that's not a bad idea. The honest truth behind this is that there is no true risk to safety in doing this. Follow the NAR safety code. Keep your distance. Fire properly. This is a lot safer than a G80 cato at the min 30' required.

Now a second thought. I seriously doubt it, but could this fall under the TRA ex launches as acceptable? There's a TRA club that launches fall to spring that I could launch it at if it does.

I am all for safety. I'm overly safe where kids are concerned. I'd be more than happy to static test the motor for issues and record the video and results. I could plug several motors and burn them off under fix and controlled conditions. Then the case and plug can be inspected

I could even set a digital scale and measure the oz of forward pressure throughout the burn as compared to an unplugged motor. My own time. My own yard. My own motors. My own risk.

Does anyone think that this level of extensive testing could be a boon to the argument? I could record and log every single aspect. Provide an amount of data to the point a book can be written. Argue the point of its safety based upon a preponderance of test data.

OR learn in a safe and controlled environment the extent of its lack of safety.

Yes. I mentioned that further back in this thread in response to a point made by rstaff3. Making a modification to a commercial motor is a research activity according to the FAQ document in the resources section on tripoli.org. At one time, this was not the case but the research rules changed along the way. Just like the NAR rules changed to allow the old motor testing program. Our orgs are adapting and allowing what each of them considers to be a practice that does not violate their safety codes.
 
You know, that's not a bad idea. The honest truth behind this is that there is no true risk to safety in doing this. Follow the NAR safety code. Keep your distance. Fire properly. This is a lot safer than a G80 cato at the min 30' required.

Now a second thought. I seriously doubt it, but could this fall under the TRA ex launches as acceptable? There's a TRA club that launches fall to spring that I could launch it at if it does.

I am all for safety. I'm overly safe where kids are concerned. I'd be more than happy to static test the motor for issues and record the video and results. I could plug several motors and burn them off under fix and controlled conditions. Then the case and plug can be inspected

I could even set a digital scale and measure the oz of forward pressure throughout the burn as compared to an unplugged motor. My own time. My own yard. My own motors. My own risk.

Does anyone think that this level of extensive testing could be a boon to the argument? I could record and log every single aspect. Provide an amount of data to the point a book can be written. Argue the point of its safety based upon a preponderance of test data.

OR learn in a safe and controlled environment the extent of its lack of safety.

I wish you all good success with this project and hope you will share your your experiences with the rest of us "new-age basement bombers". With all the severe weather here in Texas I wish I actually had a real basement in which to seek shelter. :cheers:
 
Well I have D11-P motors in stock.
I had customers that requested this discontinued motor.
Estes was kind enough to say they could produce more, but we had to order 1500 motors :y:
So I have plenty if you need plugged motors that are certified.
 
You are correct. The entire theory here is to only have the booster get the rocket moving. A measurable amount of thrust is lost to actually getting the rocket moving. The booster starts that and the dual mains get to slam it through the air with almost full thrust director as altitude with minimal loss of time and power.

If that is all you are trying to accomplish, why use this high risk design? I suppose it isn't as challenging, but using tried and true CHAD staging will give you a better chance of achieving the goal of getting the extra altitude. Just build the rocket as was originally designed, putting E9, E12 or what ever in the pods, then CHAD stage the rocket using a pair D12-0. The total impulse would be approximately the same as the 3 E9's, no electronics, no plugging of motors, easily to get boosters... You would need to try to find a way to keep the rocket on the ground if only one motor lights. Friction might do it, but the motors you are planning on using are much more powerful than the A motors used in the original. This is still a risk that the motors will not stage, or stage at the same time.
 
Well there's probably many ways to achieve what I'm after. And the D11-P may provide an option. But building rockets is not always about the easiest route. The challenge and complexity not only make it more satisfying, but extreme designs also advance the technology of our hobby.

Always be safe. Always be pushing the limits.
 
I was wondering similarly: what's so different about ramming in dog barf and pouring in epoxy that one should be allowed under the safety code and the other not?
Quite a bit technically. In the first case you are simple installing a thermal protection system to prevent hot gases from damaging your rocket, and the seconds you are permanently modifying the motor.
As for Estes giving permission, don't hold your breath. I come from the engineering profession, and I don't believe any company would say that's OK without going through a whole new qualification test program; they'd never accept the liability. I also don't believe the certifying agencies would accept such an OK without the testing even if Estes did say it; they'd never accept the liability either. Estes would probably be happy to do the certification IF they could be convinced that doing so would increase sales by enough to justify the cost. But really, who among us can honestly say "I'd buy a dozen more D12-0 engines if only I could fly them at sanctioned events after plugging them with epoxy?" And say it again about E9-0s and E12-0s and C6-0s, etc.? Because each one is a separate certification program..
Except that Estes already makes and sells plugged motors, currently in 13 mm and 24 mm diameters. All they have to do is to set up their production Mabels to shoot a shot of clay over the end of the booster propellant grain to make a cap. We have probably certified all of their motors as plugged motor over the past half century, but not all the motors they certified are in current production. If we haven't certified a plugged version of a currently certified motor, all Estes has to do is to send us 3 motors and they'll get certified within a month.

The person legally responsible for a rocket flight is the person whose name is on the flight card. Their signature on the flight card legally means that the have determined that their rocket is safe to fly. Most motor manufacturers warrantee their products to meet the performance specifications as labeled on their motors for a certain time period provided they are stored properly, not modified, and used according to the manufacturer's instruction sheet. And Estes is top notch on honoring warrantee claims on the engines, but Estes or any other manufacturer has no control of their product and its use after it leaves their shipping dock.....

The only thing a certifying authority is legally responsible for is to measure and verify that the lot of motors sent to them by the manufacturer for certification were properly labeled, performed according to their label specifications, and were operated safely when the manufacturer's instruction sheet is followed.

I'm not knocking Estes, this is just the expected and reasonable behavior of for-profit companies.
Estes and the other motor manufacturers are in business to make a profit. While they may certify many variants of their motors, it does not guarantee that they will manufacture them. And they will and do discontinue production of motor variants that do not sell well.

I think the better chance would be to make a case to the NAR safety committee (or whatever is the official name of the appropriate body) to have the safety code amended or clarified such that pouring in an epoxy plug is not considered modifying the engine.
It really does not matter what NAR S&T thinks. We are required by NAR to test and certify motors under NFPA 1125, and our procedures are 100% compliant. The unabridged NAR Model Rocket Safety Code is a superset of NFPA 1122 and the unabridged NAR High Power Safety Code is a superset of NFPA 1127, so to eliminate certain items from our safety code requires a change in the NFPA code.

What is currently allowed under NFPA 1125 is for the manufacturer to amend their instructions that would give permission for the user to put a cap over the end of the propellant grain. If Estes wants to grant that permission, the procedure would either be automatically accepted by NAR and TRA because it comes from the manufacturer, or if either certifying authority felt the change would be dangerous, the original certifying authority could decertify the motor for safety. That wouldn't happen unless the manufacturer didn't require the owner of the motor to indicate on the motor label that the motor was plugged permanently.

Making a unapproved change to a motor decertifies the motor because the motor will not perform according to the label printed on the motor casing. If you put a permanent epoxy cap on a motor labeled as a booster, forget about it, and then give it to someone who uses it as a booster motor, the motor will not behave like a booster motor and the rocket will crash. That's not Estes fault but they most likely would be blamed for it because the motor did not perform as labeled.

If on the other hand, you filled in the back end of the motor with dog barf to prevent hot gas from scorching your rocket, you did not permanently modify the motor because if you remove the dog barf, the motor will perform as labeled. If you give the motor to someone else, they will clearly see the forward end of the motor is filled with dog bark, so if they want to use it as a booster they can easily remove the dog barf.

Bob
 
What is currently allowed under NFPA 1125 is for the manufacturer to amend their instructions that would give permission for the user to put a cap over the end of the propellant grain. If Estes wants to grant that permission, the procedure would either be automatically accepted by NAR and TRA because it comes from the manufacturer,...

Except that isn't exactly what the NFPA codes say. Yes, both 1122 4.19.3 and 1127 4.5.3 do say something about allowing alterations according to manufacturers instructions, but ONLY for reloadable motors. Both codes explicitly forbid any alteration of a SU motor, with no corresponding provision for manufacturer overrides. So if a plugging a E9-0 is an alteration then doing so would be a violation of 1122 4.19.2, and Estes could not make it an approved alteration by changing their instructions.

My opinion is that plugging motors without ejection charges, or dumping out an ejection charge out of an AT SU motor really stretches the definition of "alter", but if those acts are completely unacceptable to the NAR, I don't understand how the NAR can accept TRA's certification of Aerotech's line DMS motors. There is no denying that drilling a delay grain is a modification to the motor or that DMS motors are single use motors, therefore if the delay is drilled, those motors clearly violate NFPA 1122 4.19.2 or NFPA 1127 4.5.2. Hope nobody expects NAR's insurance to cover the damage if a flight using one of those motors goes horribly wrong.

..., or if either certifying authority felt the change would be dangerous, the original certifying authority could decertify the motor for safety. That wouldn't happen unless the manufacturer didn't require the owner of the motor to indicate on the motor label that the motor was plugged permanently.

Really? Then how do you justify the fact that CTI motors are certified? They include instructions on how to remove the ejection charge, a procedure that the NAR apparently feels is a "motor alteration", without any mention of the user needing to label the motor as having no ejection charge.

...so to eliminate certain items from our safety code requires a change in the NFPA code.

True, and as it happens, a new version of the NFPA is being worked on right now. So if anybody feels strongly about getting user plugged motors or removal of ejection charges sanctioned, or any other changes to the NFPA, now is the time to speak up. Both NAR and Tripoli are represented on the NFPA committee. Contact information for the NAR representative is on their website, and I assume the Tripoli website. If you have a lot of time and an exceptionally high tolerance for aggravation, you can also try to make a public comment on the NFPA site. Of course, at best the change will not take effect until 2018.

I did not read the current version of the new codes word for word, but the "No person shall dismantle, reload, or alter a single-use xxx rocket motor" wording is still in the preview copies. I would think NAR/TRA would have already had that changed.
 
Quite a bit here I did not know; thanks. But still some questions.
I was wondering similarly: what's so different about ramming in dog barf and pouring in epoxy that one should be allowed under the safety code and the other not?
Quite a bit technically. In the first case you are simple installing a thermal protection system to prevent hot gases from damaging your rocket, and the seconds you are permanently modifying the motor.
Either way it's stuffing something into the top end of the motor to get a different effect than it is nominally intended for. So it's permanence that makes the difference? I guess that makes sense.

bobkrech said:
jqavins said:
As for Estes giving permission, don't hold your breath... I don't believe any company would say that's OK without going through a whole new qualification test program; they'd never accept the liability.
Except that Estes already makes and sells plugged motors, currently in 13 mm and 24 mm diameters... We have probably certified all of their motors as plugged motor over the past half century... If we haven't certified a plugged version of a currently certified motor, all Estes has to do is to send us 3 motors and they'll get certified within a month.
But I wasn't talking about Estes not wishing to get plugged versions certified (at least not in that paragraph.) I was talking about Estes officially telling the flying public that it is OK for us to plug their engines. Apparently the "whole new qualification test program" is a lot easier than I thought, but my point is that they have to do it, not condone us doing it.

bobkrech said:
The person legally responsible for a rocket flight is the person whose name is on the flight card...
But ambulance chasers don't care about that and Estes, unfortunately, has to live with that reality.

bobkrech said:
The only thing a certifying authority is legally responsible for is to measure and verify that the lot of motors sent to them by the manufacturer for certification were properly labeled, performed according to their label specifications, and were operated safely when the manufacturer's instruction sheet is followed.
OK, that too is new information to me; thanks. But again, tell it to the ambulance chasers.

bobkrech said:
jqavins said:
Estes would probably be happy to do the certification IF they could be convinced that doing so would increase sales by enough to justify the cost. But really, who among us can honestly say "I'd buy a dozen more D12-0 engines if only I could fly them at sanctioned events after plugging them with epoxy?" And say it again about E9-0s and E12-0s and C6-0s, etc.? Because each one is a separate certification program.

I'm not knocking Estes, this is just the expected and reasonable behavior of for-profit companies.
Estes and the other motor manufacturers are in business to make a profit. While they may certify many variants of their motors, it does not guarantee that they will manufacture them. And they will and do discontinue production of motor variants that do not sell well.
We're saying the same thing here, except for my mistaken assumption that the certification program is onerous.

bobkrech said:
jqavins said:
I think the better chance would be to make a case to the NAR safety committee (or whatever is the official name of the appropriate body) to have the safety code amended or clarified such that pouring in an epoxy plug is not considered modifying the engine.
It really does not matter what NAR S&T thinks. We are required by NAR to test and certify motors under NFPA 1125, and our procedures are 100% compliant. The unabridged NAR Model Rocket Safety Code is a superset of NFPA 1122 and the unabridged NAR High Power Safety Code is a superset of NFPA 1127, so to eliminate certain items from our safety code requires a change in the NFPA code.
Ah, but who defines "modify?" (That is not rhetorical.) I'm not suggesting that the "shall not modify" clause be removed; most of the modifications one might think of performing are really bad ideas and potentially dangerous. I'm suggesting that plugging a motor not be defined as modification, and I've assumed - quite possibly erroneously - that that comes from S&T.
 
Interestingly enough the NAR ruled several years ago that gluing a thrust ring to the OUTSIDE of a motor did not constitute a modification since it did not affect the performance or safety of the motor. I'm not sure how plugging a -0 motor does either, but until (if?) they rule on this definitively it's better to just plug it with dog barf and tape the end shut and be done with it. I've been doing this for quite awhile at the local model rocket range while doing initial Eggfinder DD flight tests with LPR (E12-0), and the local rulemeister has no problem with it.
 
Making a unapproved change to a motor decertifies the motor because the motor will not perform according to the label printed on the motor casing. If you put a permanent epoxy cap on a motor labeled as a booster, forget about it, and then give it to someone who uses it as a booster motor, the motor will not behave like a booster motor and the rocket will crash. That's not Estes fault but they most likely would be blamed for it because the motor did not perform as labeled.

If on the other hand, you filled in the back end of the motor with dog barf to prevent hot gas from scorching your rocket, you did not permanently modify the motor because if you remove the dog barf, the motor will perform as labeled. If you give the motor to someone else, they will clearly see the forward end of the motor is filled with dog bark, so if they want to use it as a booster they can easily remove the dog barf.

Bob




This does make sense, too bad the only ones really effected by this are the ones wishing to fly a model that need a plugged motor/motors at an NAR sanctioned launch and are members of NAR that wish to have their insurance coverage in place. I would also be inclined to believe that the fore mentioned would be smart enough to label an "altered" motor accordingly. It doesn't take too much thought to mark the epoxy plug in some way that it can not be confused as a booster motor.
 
Interestingly enough the NAR ruled several years ago that gluing a thrust ring to the OUTSIDE of a motor did not constitute a modification since it did not affect the performance or safety of the motor.
That's good to know. I've figured it probably would be considered modification, and that actually affects a design I have in my head and half formed in RS. (The F10 has no thrust ring where other Aerotech SU composites do. [Yes, I know, the F10 is from Apogee, but Aerotech makes it.])
 

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