Car Guys: Why are we still messing with Ethanol?

mrichhcirm:

There are far too many here that are easily offended...

This is the new-norm for the entire country...

After all, ROCKETS are all that matter...

KidRockET said:

mrichhcirm:

There are far too many here that are easily offended...

This is the new-norm for the entire country...

After all, ROCKETS are all that matter...

Click to expand...

I'll drink ethanol to that!

I was lucky enough to have once been trained at FT. Knox to be a mechanic for these things. (63M-10)
We should all be driving these.

[video]https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVje5FTxVSCsA8YInnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0b2 ZrZmU3BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwMl8x?p=B radley+Fighting+Vehicle+Designers+Cipriani&tnr=21&vid=A3D2C416A6FDA9D69EB0A3D2C416A6FDA9D69EB0&l=192&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN.5 0%252bejzZm8thxXE5KgVWJ5g%26pid%3D15.1&sigi=121ca4qg7&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D7 mbC8dkfEpI&sigr=11berj8vq&tt=b&tit=M2+Bradley+Infanty+Fighting+Vehicle+%7C+Milita ry-Today.com&sigt=11opbasuh&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch %3Fp%3DBradley%2BFighting%2BVehicle%2BDesigners%2B Cipriani%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-001%26ei%3DUTF-8&sigb=14a49ft9b&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001[/video]

The video does'nt talk about the TOW Missiles for some reason or the number of variants for some reason.:confused2:

The funny thing was that all my Awards ended up saying Light Wheeled Mechanic. I really busted my ass to graduate 3rd of my class at Ft. Knox, and everyone thought I was a 63B.
I was lucky to have been stationed with a Light Cav unit that only had Humvees. When they got me they thought they were getting Bradleys.
They did'nt even get me, as I swiftly volunteered to be part of 3ID.

Rob Campbell said:

Two words: Corn Lobby

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Exactly.

United States - Corn ethanol - 1.3 (energy balance; energy out vs energy in to produce)
Brazil - Sugarcane ethanol - 8
Germany - Biodiesel - 2.5
United States- Cellulosic ethanol - 2–36 (depending on production method)

Top Ramen,

You should've stopped by...

I live in Louisville...

I don't know about you but I see a bunch of students learning, inventing and they are our future. Maybe they will have an alternative to this alternative. Oh by the way, Factory Five makes great products, I own one.

Thank you, finally, someone definitely read the story...
;-)

blackjack2564 said:

For those truly interested in alternative fuels, this one is making big head way:

Can be made from many other plants besides corn, with a high yield.

Isobutanol .....it can be made side by side in an Ethanol refinery, with small changes in process. Can be used up to 40% instead of 10% [ethanol]. Has been tested last 4 years for ill effects [deterioration]of long term storage in tanks[none], by the Military [ which by presidential decree ordered to go 20% green]. Adds to, rather than detracts from octane rating, 90% of refining by products, can be used for animal feedstock, and just passed use by Navy, Airforce for use in jets, helicopters, naval vessels.

Also can be used to make bio-degradable plastic bottles, [specifically water and soda] among other plastic items [bio-degradable] just passed tests for off road vehicles, quads, motorcycles etc. which have also been mandated to go green by the gov.

It's really shining in Formula-1 racing, where it has become the preferred fuel for several teams.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gevo-sells-renewable-jet-fuel-130000491.html

I was convinced enough last year to buy stock in Gevo ,who plans to license the process worldwide to existing refineries.
This can be a major game changer. Isobutanol is not new, came to being during WW2 as synthetic alternative to rubber, for tires, but recently a new process for making it much cheaper came to be.

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You really don't want to use isobutyl alcohol as a gasoline additive. You would most likely get sick from smelling it as you fueled your care.

Isobutyl alcohol however is a wonderful feedstock material for making gasoline, diesel fuel and jet fuel and that is the value of the Gevo patents. As isobutyl alcohol can be made from biomass or natural gas, processes that use it can be somewhat economical. And an advantage of making gasoline, diesel fuel and jet fuel from isobutyl alcohol is that it is inherently low sulfur and does not require a desulfuring step to meet air quality standards.

In general, adding alcohol to a fuel is counter productive from and energy and green house gas perspective regardless what the environment groups say. When the object of the exercise is to minimize CO2 generation, you don't want to start with a partially oxygenated molecule as some of the hydrocarbons energy potential has already been consumed so you need more fuel, and therefore generate more CO2 per unit of delivered energy. That's just chemistry, not politics.

Adding an alcohol to gasoline does not actually make cleaner air, it increase the octane rating of the gas. (Octane rating is a measure of the resistance of a fuel to detonate under heat and pressure.) The alcohol cracks under heat and makes -OH radicals which act as a chain termination reaction to prevent the fuel inside the cylinder head from detonating under pressure. (This is why we put tetraethyl lead into gas years ago). Since the hydroxyl radical slows down the reaction rate at high temperature to prevent knocking (detonations), you can use cheaper (less refined) fuels satisfactorily. You can also alter the mechanical design of the intake system, valving and use direct injection to do this as well. This makes the engine more expensive, but does not require a large octane boost. In supercharge and turbocharged engines, water injection is used for the same purpose, but we have winter and it's cold at altitude, so an alcohol/water mixture is used instead of pure water in aircraft and some street driven automobile performance engines.

Since the acquisition cost of a vehicle is a capital (up-front) cost, and fuel is an operating (out-of-pocket) cost, car manufacturers choose the most profitable solution for them, not necessarily the most economical cost for us. Other than in North America, at least 1/3 of the private transportation vehicles are diesel powered. Diesel engines operate at approximately twice the cylinder head pressure of a gasoline engine and offer about 70% greater fuel economy than gasoline. A diesel engine is approximate about twice as expensive to manufacture than a gasoline engine so in countries where fuel is cheap (untaxed of lightly taxed <50%) gasoline engines are dominant. In countries without domestic fuel production, gasoline is highly taxed (>100%) so diesel engines dominate.

For example, in the US, I would guess that most automobile engines are between 2 and 4 liters. In Europe and Asia, they range from 1 to 2 liters, and are frequently diesels as a modern 2 liter high speed diesel engine of 2 liters is roughly equivalent to a 3.3-3.5 liter gasoline engine in performance, but with 60-70% better fuel economy. That's also thermodynamics not politics. In the extreme case, a 2 liter dual turbocharged Alpena modified BMW engine develops 300 hp and 300 ft-lb torque, accelerates 0-60 mph in well under 6 seconds and tops out at over 150 mph while cruising on the autobahn at 80-100 mph at 47 mph! Similarly, a 2 liter turbocharged diesel Subaru Forrester in the UK gets 53 mph on diesel whereas the non-turbocharged 2 liter gasoline powered version get 35 mph highway in the US. You can pay for a diesel up front, or pay more for gas every day. In most countries you have a choice, but not here.

Anyway, unless you have a good reason to use high alcohol content fuel, you don't because it has lower energy content. If you want to use a biofuel, having a cheap process that converts cellulose to isobutanol or isobutylene is advantageous since these processes make feedstock for manufacturing gasoline, diesel fuel or jet fuel cheaply, and we know how to utilize these fuels efficiently and today's engines actually process the air and in many situations makes the exhaust flow cleaner than the incoming air, while minimizing CO2 generation.

Bob

Rob Campbell said:

Two words: Corn Lobby

Click to expand...

I'm more of a Hobby Lobby guy, myself.