How big is rocketry in the USA?

Taking about annoying peoples . Completely out of the track in the ditch, congrats....... I'm talking to make mid power launch without high power rules and without high power........ a fun activity, having fun, obviously something you can't .... When you launch low and mid power, you don’t need rockets inspectors, you just need someone to control the launch and control when it’s the time to go get the rocket in the field.

Joining a national rocketry organization in order to fly certain rockets that are otherwise permitted by the laws is a bit like being required to join the Boy Scouts in order to go camping. To each his own.

JStarStar said:

Brilliant idea. Slackened attention to safety rules will result in more accidents, more property damage, more personal injuries and eventually deaths. A handful of high-publicity cases of this type (safety regulations ignored, rockets fly into crowds, young kids killed, lawsuits and criminal charges) and you can kiss the hobby goodbye.

Got any more bright ideas, keep 'em to yourself.

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Cranky today are we? Its a valid point, like it or not the amount of rules and safety concerns should drop significantly with LPR. You just don't need to treat a LPR or MPR launch like a HPR Tripoli research launch. Some basic safety is all that is needed, this LPR RSO crap is a joke. How many hundreds of thousands of rockets have flown out a park with no issue EVER, no NAR or RSO or LCO?!

After all that the real problem here is you didn't need to get all up in his grill about it! All he is asking for is a little perspective, and you get all snooty. Spare us the "its for the children" crap and stop hiding under the bed! :2:


TA

Celebrate diversity...

ballistic_trep said:

I know the subject of this thread is model rocketry in the United States but we have model rocketry in our elementary schools here in New Brunswick, Canada. My youngest son will be studying the physics of flight as his last "block" before his grade 6 year end and building/flying their own rockets will be a part of it. I believe it's quite common across the country although sometimes even the teachers don't have info to pass on to parents...such as where to purchase rocketry supplies. Is rocketry a part of the curriculum in elementary schools in America? If not, it should be.

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No rocketry in school curriculum in Ontario, Canada!😥
I have done some launches with my daughters' classes but there is no mention of it in any science units--even the ones on flight (grade 6) or space (grade 9). I do build rockets with my grade 9's though.

Launching LPR rockets is almost a Cub Scout rite of passage. It's always a huge hit with the kids, but not many of them get hooked on it for good... from what I've seen, it's usually the parents that go on to bigger and better rockets. California does not make it easy to launch model rockets just about anywhere in the state, in spite of arguably being the high-tech capital of the country (Apple, HP, Intel, a large portion of the aerospace industry, etc.)

Area66 said:

Taking about annoying peoples . Completely out of the track in the ditch, congrats....... I'm talking to make mid power launch without high power rules and without high power........ a fun activity, having fun, obviously something you can't .... When you launch low and mid power, you don’t need rockets inspectors, you just need someone to control the launch and control when it’s the time to go get the rocket in the field.

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There is nothing in the "rules" that says you can't have a casual LPR, MPR rocket launch. It mostly depends on on the size of the launch, how many spectators etc. As long as the safety code is followed is all that matters. You don't need flight cards etc. Minimal distances to the pads are just that, adding a few more ft. or so doesn't hurt. Fly 'em, have fun!!

I can't fly as much as I'd like to because the club flies way out in the middle of nowhere, and I have no car so I have no realistic way of getting there unless I carpool with someone.

However I just got a full time job, so perhaps getting a car is not out of the question in the near future. However the bigger question is practicality. My work place is not far from where I live and so I can bike/bus there. However paying over 300/month to maintain/mortgage/insure a car is a lot of money just to fly a rocket once a month.

Also it is more environmentally friendly to carpool whenever possible, but that not something the average Texan cares about...

How do you figure that?
$60 a year.

JD

KidRockET said:

They could garner higher membership numbers if they didn't charge $75.00/year...

That is simply too high a price to pay per year...

Flame on boys...

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Loren said:

Discovery did have a few specials covering LDRS with the Mythbusters girl. I only saw the last one and was disappointed. They only covered the oddest of the oddrocs, leading viewers to believe that this is what the hobby is about. Covering some of the contests would have been far better.

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All of the TV shows with rockets have portrayed us as dangerous out of control idiots.
When we did LDRS 32 at Black Rock it was put into the proposal if the BoD had any of the TV crews come to the launch we would not do the launch. It was not negotiable.
I have never allowed outside video at BALLS, there has been outside professional still photographers be they were thoroughly vetted.

M

MClark said:

All of the TV shows with rockets have portrayed us as dangerous out of control idiots.
When we did LDRS 32 at Black Rock it was put into the proposal if the BoD had any of the TV crews come to the launch we would not do the launch. It was not negotiable.
I have never allowed outside video at BALLS, there has been outside professional still photographers be they were thoroughly vetted.

M

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You make a good point. There's also a lot of unflattering videos posted on YouTube of those that don't take the hobby (or at least the safe side of the hobby) very seriously. That doesn't help the image much either. But then, I'm not sure what can be done about that.

Wal-mart used to sell model rockets, model cars, and other model supplies in the toy dept. No longer. I'm sure Estes took a big hit when Wal-mart dropped their product.

I could not believe how much NAR membership was when I renewed this year. I am a member of a lot of clubs, groups ect, and none of their membership fees are that high. Most are in the $35 to 40 range.

I wonder what some commercial advertising would do for Estes?

Danomite45 said:

Wal-mart used to sell model rockets, model cars, and other model supplies in the toy dept. No longer. I'm sure Estes took a big hit when Wal-mart dropped their product.

I could not believe how much NAR membership was when I renewed this year. I am a member of a lot of clubs, groups ect, and none of their membership fees are that high. Most are in the $35 to 40 range.

I wonder what some commercial advertising would do for Estes?

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Our Walmart still carries the Estes E2X stuff and some motors and Boosters.

rcktnut said:

There is nothing in the "rules" that says you can't have a casual LPR, MPR rocket launch. It mostly depends on on the size of the launch, how many spectators etc. As long as the safety code is followed is all that matters. You don't need flight cards etc. Minimal distances to the pads are just that, adding a few more ft. or so doesn't hurt. Fly 'em, have fun!!

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Exactly, it's what I means; fallow the code, but drop the flight cards , line at inspection table. A Pad Manager-LCO to keep some order.


Since we are here, why instead of sit their a$$ on a Rocket Inspectors table ( HPR ) RI don’t visit tables to see how peoples prepare their rockets talk with them, way more efficient than just check if the fins are well glue or the coupler is not too tight. It’s what I did at our last High Power launch where we was less than 10 launchers, they don’t even notice I was inspecting them.

Rocketry has never been a big hobby except for maybe at the height of the moon race.

Space for launching areas are a problem.

Other things competing for kid's attention are also a problem.

Lack of support from schools and Scouts are a problem.

Attitudes of old heads are a problem.

FC

I just saw Estes motors and starter sets at Target yesterday - on sale. Some Walmarts in the area have them as well.

Chris

Hobby Lobby has never stopped carrying Estes rockets.

ArizonaSportsman said:

You make a good point. There's also a lot of unflattering videos posted on YouTube of those that don't take the hobby (or at least the safe side of the hobby) very seriously. That doesn't help the image much either. But then, I'm not sure what can be done about that.

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I think a show that's filmed more like a sporting event would be the answer. The stuff that's been on TV about LDRS (I'm new, and have never been, but I've read plenty about it) portrayed rocketry as something weird pursued by a bunch of dangerous freaks (at least that's what I've been led to understand). A show that actually had some insight and was respectful of rocketry could be both a boon to the hobby and fascinating to watch. And people like watching competitive anything.

I think the main thing is that so few non-rocketeers know anything about rocketry - if they even know that it exists.

I go back to my point about dog shows. Nobody on the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show makes fun of people who raise show dogs.

A show that takes rocketry serious could be an unexpected hit. Serious commentary would be interesting. Shows that fly in and simply do an expose-style freak show shouldn't be welcomed in.

If people are willing to watch guys fish, people would be willing to watch rockets fly, I think.

Remember a couple of things:

One, the majority of the market by far is still LPR. And guess whose engines LPR uses for the majority of flying.

Two, only Estes has enough volume to be able to make RTF/ATF/E2X kits (lots of plastic) for relatively cheap.

Three, the majority of rocketry is 'one and done'. I will say if the ranks are not replenished from the bottom end, at some point, there will not be enough volume of flyers for economical engine production. The hobby will die.

FC

I've only attended one Tripoli event, that being LDRS XXX at Argonia, KS in 2011. As my nephew Bill lives near Danville and my brother lives in Wichita, we had a Macklin family reunion of sorts. On the Saturday that we attended the first real cold front of the season had passed through Kansas and knocked the heat wave down from 100+ to the upper eighties. It was quite a spectacle with Kari Bryan and the Discovery Channel camera crew wandering around the gathered throng pretending to be interested while her overeager fans followed her every move. Besides the spectacular rockets the most memorable part of the entire show was the popups being blown over by steady winds of 30 mph with occasional gusts well over 40. After all, the show must go on.

Here we are at Bill's place. Left to right, my son Charlie, me, little brother Jim and his sons Bill and John. :surprised:

I'm amazingly lucky. There are two viable clubs near me. An hour to one and 10 mins to the other. The first has a 30k waiver. The second has a 3650' waiver. That being said, the first club can only fly half the year due to it being a corn field. So half the year I have only 3650' fly zone. And only once a month. Weather stops us. No launch in Feb or Apr. Dunno about March as I was out of town. I'm doing my part to promote as I can, but we need a second field for summer.

That leads to the other issue. Finding a field sucks. Although we have two clubs, I'm considering starting a third. If I can find a field that is. Not to exclude HPR, but I'd limit it to LPR and MPR only. That eliminates the requirement for a waiver. We can also be casual and still maintain safety. I'd also like to be able to invite schools scouts and church groups. A real family respectable environment.

Danomite45 said:

Wal-mart used to sell model rockets, model cars, and other model supplies in the toy dept. No longer. I'm sure Estes took a big hit when Wal-mart dropped their product.

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Wal-Mart is a dramatically mixed bag for a manufacturer such as Estes because they impose by force "best practices" requirements upon their vendors which pretty much force them away from domestic production and "individualized" parts supply sourcing toward sending everything over to China. The oft-remarked complaints about cheaper paper body tubes and 4-inch long shock cords may be carryovers from the Wal-Mart days of Estes.

Also Wal-Mart enforces upon all vendors an absolute-lowest-common-denominator marketing plan based upon pumping 37 million pieces of cheap crap through the doors in the next 12 months with never the slightest thought of whether any of these people will ever come back and buy another one two years from now.

Wal-Mart, the Consumer's Race to the Bottom.

To me the biggest problem is the constantly-worsening problem of finding adequate flying fields. When I was a kid in the late 60s/early 70s, I could walk/ride my bike 200 yards to a great flying field. I had 3-4 friends on my street who flew rockets and we each had what amounted to a 'home field.'

Within a 5 minute bike ride there were 3-4 other fields where you could fly rockets. All those areas have been totally built over now.

While we had plenty of places to launch down south, most of our local hobby shops went under during the '90s and many that were still open only carried R/C stuff (and usually just cars). Plus, in our area you couldn't find rockets at all at any other brick-and-mortar establishments like craft shops or department stores - I don't even think our Toys R Us carried them at that point. We had one place to get them, and it was about an hour away in a fairly sketchy location.

I really think that more people would be into rocketry if there were more exposure - perhaps not astronomical numbers, but healthy ones. Nowadays, however, instead of walking into a shop and seeing all types of diversions people do an online search for a specific product and go to a page dedicated to that product (often on a site that sells nothing else).

And honestly, if there can be five shows about making $#@! cupcakes, there can be room for one (responsibly-produced) show about our hobby.

Unless you are in an area where there is an active NAR or TRA club, or know a member of a club, or you are in 4H. the Scouts or CAP, or unless you go to school that has a teacher or club in rocketry you are not likely to get into the hobby. The dollar value in a hobby store is low, and shelf space is expensive, so there are fewer and fewer stores stocking hobby rocketry items. AFAIk while there are a number of on-line vendors, there are an order of magnitude more big on-line vendors selling quadrotors that you can fly in your yard and even in your house and all you need to do is to recharge your batteries. It's a tough sell with the other hobbies out there.

It was claimed that 250,000 folks fly a rocket each year. Well there are ~7500 folks who are interested enough to fork over ~$60 a year to join NAR/TRA and 40% belong to both. If that's correct only 1 in 33 rocket fliers are interested in rocketry enough to join an organization and IIRC the average residency time is less than 5 years......and about 1 in 50,000 Americans belong to NAR and/or TRA.

Massachusetts has a population of ~7,000,000 so in theory there are 140 rocket folks in the state. CMASS is the only club in the state and we have ~142 members so the numbers don't lie. And we do lots of outreach with TARC, SLI, Scouts, 4H and CAP, and many schools and science clubs.

Bob

JStarStar said:

Also Wal-Mart enforces upon all vendors an absolute-lowest-common-denominator marketing plan based upon pumping 37 million pieces of cheap crap through the doors in the next 12 months with never the slightest thought of whether any of these people will ever come back and buy another one two years from now.

Wal-Mart, the Consumer's Race to the Bottom.

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Selling to Walmart is, as you note, a mixed bag for most companies. Here's a fascinating article I read years ago that points out many of the negatives associated with maintaining a vendor relationship with the company:

https://www.fastcompany.com/54763/man-who-said-no-wal-mart

James

If you are a company who produces high quality product, Wal Mart is not the right place for it... it's known for its cheapness in order to drive down prices.

By the way I just got a job offer at Walmart... will see how that works (have to wait for the background check first).

Back to the OP's question - there is very little real data publicly available on the economic or demographic size of the sport rocket ecosystem except the NAR/TRA membership information. All of the largest manufacturers (Hobbico/Estes, Quest/Aerotech, CTI) are private companies and do not report financial results, let alone results broken out by business unit. NAR membership has been nosing up slowly toward 6000 for the last few years, driven partly by TARC and also by improved promotion efforts. Ted Cochran has done a great job of publishing and describing what is known about the membership levels each year at NARAM.

The sport rocketry industry as a whole is VERY small in macro terms, so it attacts no coverage in government or academic economic indicators. Just to give an idea, Hobbico as a whole has 650 employees (see https://www.hobbico.com/who.html) spread across 45 wholly-owned brands, of which Estes is only one. On CTI's website are some government filings showing that from 2010 through 2014 they have had 25-27 employees...and they have other businesses besides rocket motors. Quest/Aerotech give no relevant information but I believe they are roughly comparable to CTI. So if you estimate ~50 Hobbico employees on rockets (8% of total, just a WAG), we have very roughly 100-125 employees TOTAL across the largest North America companies. Generously assuming $300K revenue per employee, the total size of the industry looks like $30+M plus the minor players. Even if this off by a factor of 3, the industry is under $100M and the entire US sport rocket industry would qualify as a single small business in the SBA toy/game mfr category (under 500 employees).

I will say this though, I have seen far more younger rocketeers today than I did 15 years ago. Back then rocketry were only enjoyed by those who are over 50, and I was the youngest person there.

Moon Knight said:

No rocketry in school curriculum in Ontario, Canada!��
I have done some launches with my daughters' classes but there is no mention of it in any science units--even the ones on flight (grade 6) or space (grade 9). I do build rockets with my grade 9's though.

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My oldest son built and flew his own rocket in grade 6 as part of the curriculum and as I said, my next oldest will be doing the same in a month or so. I took it for granted that it must be part of the curriculums in other provinces. Kudos to the New Brunswick Dept of Education for including rocketry in their program.

As a BAR, what brought me back was mid-power. I saw an "F" motor at Hobby Lobby, getting some paint for my airbrush rig to paint an R/C short course 1/10 truck. I froze and said, "What?!?!?", "Things have changed!" Bought a Pro-II and while at it ordered a couple "G" AP motors. At the push of the botton, oh I was hooked. Then I found out "G" was pretty small. Went out to a lanuch where a couple "M"s let fly. It is hard to express the feeling of a large impulse lift-off other than ya gotta be there to FEEL it. I don't know how if video can impart that much near-subsonic force.

Another concern is the loss of launch areas as the west seems to dry out and pose greater fire risks. Of course if it dries out enough it will be desert. Hard to ignite rock and dirt...

LPR is great to get someone into the technical aspects and some of the finish work is beyond amazing. But for me, it is hard to compare the excitement of a L3 attempt. The rush of the launch and the concentration/concern of "will I make it?" is contageous!