Argent instructions - Anyone done this?

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Mushtang

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So I'm building the PSII Argent from Estes and have decided to leave off the rear centering ring to reinforce the fins, as many here have reported too. But the instructions have a diagram that really surprises me!

There are three centering rings on the motor tube, and if you build per the instructions you glue them all three on the motor tube and then when that dries you shove the motor mount up into the body tube. But first, you're supposed to put 3 rings of glue inside the body tube for the rings. Like this...

Argent Instructions.jpg

Did anyone try it this way??? It seems to me that if you did, the upper centering ring would smear all the glue from the lower two glue rings on it's way up, leaving very little for the lower two centering rings. They're a really tight fit so the amount of glue left over would be very little, if any.
 
Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. 3X the glue doesn't necessarily do much if it's all in one spot... What I did was put some glue, put the first ring in, put some more glue, slide it further in, more glue, last ring. It's tricky to apply wood glue with the motor mount in the way, but it's worked okay for me. Also with wood glue if the rings are a tight fit the glue could "grab" before you get the whole thing in. Could help to sand the OD of the rings down a bit, and also use 15min epoxy so you don't end up with a rocket that has a MMT stuck halfway in! :y:

Nate
 
Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. 3X the glue doesn't necessarily do much if it's all in one spot... What I did was put some glue, put the first ring in, put some more glue, slide it further in, more glue, last ring.
I've done that before when there were only two rings, one at the back edge and one further up. But in this model in order to get the top centering ring past the point where the middle centering ring goes, the middle centering ring is already in the tube, so there's no way to slide it partway in and then get glue up there for the middle ring.

Leaving the rear ring off is the only way to get glue to all three rings.

Sometimes I wonder if the person writing the instructions is different than the person that designed the kit?
 
You are on the right track...

My son has one of these still in the bag...

Are you doing a build thread...
 
Another screwy thing about the Argent... if you glue the launch lugs in place (as per the instructions, the upper one will be in the orange color band, which IMHO would look odd. I opted to move mine forward of the markings
 
You are on the right track...

I am currently building a Ventris, I think all the PSII rockets use the same motor mount and instructions.

I did just what you are talking about. I left the rear centering ring off (so I could apply internal fillets to the fins), applied glue as far up as i could for the front centering ring, pushed it partially in, applied glue behind it for the middle ring, and then pushed it up into position. The wood glue tried to grab, but I managed to get the motor mount all the way in. Suggest either using 5 minute epoxy as suggested earlier, or only gluing the forward CR to the MM and gluing it into position with a loose CR to keep the MM aligned. Then installing the center and aft CRs. individually. I think that is how I will do my Partizon.

Best of luck on your Argent!:cheers:
 
Re: forward lug location
the aft end of the forward lug should be 15" from the aft end of the body tube, centered over the joint between the lower and upper section of the booster. thus putting it right in the middle of the orange band (no masking required). I had a brief discussion with Jumpjet about this...the illustration in the instructions is correct, the text is not.
Rex
 
For most of the PSII kits, if you follow the instructions, you will end up with most of the glue scraped forward as you shove in the motor mount. All you can do at that point is to assume the forward CR has enough glue scraped forward to filet it in place, externally fillet the aft CR with more glue, and assume the center CR has enough residual glue to hold it in place. Realistically, that's probably enough. Have you ever heard of the motor mount on a PSII tearing loose? I haven't. Also, think about the ways the fins interlock with the fin slots, middle CR, motor mount, aft CR, and motor retainer. It's a pretty solid interconnected structural system that does not rely very much on glue strength.

With that said, I'd lean toward making the aft centering ring removable when you glue in the motor mount. Remove it before adding the fins. Fillet all the internal joints --- fin tab to motor tube, tab to middle CR, tab to internal BT. Then when you add the aft CR, add glue to the tab edge where the CR will contact it, and also to the motor mount tube and BT. Fillet BT and MMT joints once in place. That's going to be super solid --- more than necessary.
 
You are on the right track...

My son has one of these still in the bag...

Are you doing a build thread...
No, I'm just building this one while I wait for good conditions to get out and fly some others. We've had good weather lately, and if the rain holds off maybe I can fly on Saturday - but currently the forecast is for heavy rain on Sat. Booooo!!!
 
Have you ever heard of the motor mount on a PSII tearing loose? I haven't.
No. But this thread wasn't really about that, it was to call attention to a step in the instructions that's impossible to do. They way they're written clearly suggests this will leave rings of glue on all three centering rings instead of 3x the glue on the top CR and smears of glue on the other two.

With that said, I'd lean toward making the aft centering ring removable when you glue in the motor mount. Remove it before adding the fins. Fillet all the internal joints --- fin tab to motor tube, tab to middle CR, tab to internal BT. Then when you add the aft CR, add glue to the tab edge where the CR will contact it, and also to the motor mount tube and BT. Fillet BT and MMT joints once in place. That's going to be super solid --- more than necessary.
Agreed. That's what I'd said, in less detail, in my opening sentence of the OP.

It's not an issue without an easy solution. When I started building the Argent I did a search on these forums for a build thread to see if there were any gotcha's that I needed to know about. I did find the thread about the launch lug location, and I found a LOT of people suggesting to leave the rear CR off until internal fillets on the TTW fins could be made. That seems to be pretty standard with TTW fins I think (in my few years here that's what I've seen anyway).

I just wonder why Estes doesn't have their instructions either 1) recommend the method of leaving off the rear CR until later, or 2) remove the graphic that cannot work and just say "glue the CRs to the inside of the BT" and let you figure it out on your own?
 
I get the feeling that, the Estes designers are not a big fans of internal filets(for lpr & midpwr). indeed looking at the fins/rings for the Nike Smoke and how they interlock is proof of that(very nice design BTW). considering how easy it is to get blobs of glue on the motor tube before you want them there...this is probably a good thing for novice builders.
Rex
 
To prevent blobs of glue on (or inside) the motor tube... Wrap the exposed end with wax paper.
 
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you and I know this...Estes designs for the lowest common denominator. if it can be done wrong someone will do it...and then complain bitterly about it.
Rex
 
Glad I caught this. I have the leviathan, partizon, argent and ventris all about to go into build mode.
 
I agree that the instructions are pretty messed up and impossible to get BT to CR fillets on all three CRs, but I also think that a good fillet on the forward BT to CR joint and one on the aft CR to BT joint would be enough for any motor the rocket is designed to fly on.

I built my Leviathan stock except for the Kevlar shock cord attached to the MMT and I've flown it on many H motors without any issues. I'm more worried about the BT collapsing from the drag and thrust of the large H motors than the MMT coming out.

I would put the forward ring of glue in the tube, slide the first CR in, squirt more glue in the tube, push the mount forward until the second CR was in the BT, and then squirt more glue in and slid the MMT assembly into position. Then leave the rocket sit vertical over night and don't worry about the MMT coming out.
 
Hey Mushtang

Do a build thread already...:grin:
Too late! I've already gotten it all glued together, primed, sanded, and it's ready for paint. I did not take any pictures along the way. As soon as I figure out how to get the proxy problem solved I will paint it with a cow spots design.
 
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