Motor storage (yes another thread)

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mpitfield

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Tonight I picked up a new Dewalt "Tough Box" model DWST 08203 for my motor storage. Besides being a "Tough Box" it is also water/air tight if you chose so by closing a screw valve on top. So not knowing if this would cause vapors or some other negative issue I left it open and thought I would post this thread.

The question...to seal or not to seal?
 
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I chose the Ridgid version that's about the same size based on the lower price.

Have been using it for several months and haven't given any thought to the seals. My box isn't advertised as being water/air tight nor does it have the pressure relief but it does require a bit of effort to close the lid down.

Interesting post.
 
I chose the Ridgid version that's about the same size based on the lower price.

Have been using it for several months and haven't given any thought to the seals. My box isn't advertised as being water/air tight nor does it have the pressure relief but it does require a bit of effort to close the lid down.

Interesting post.

Thanks for the response.

I believe it is generally known to store motors in a dry, cool place but their seems to be a lack of information on the ideal ranges for those two variables. And as far as sealed air tight, I have never read anything on that topic and felt it warrnateed a query from those who are more knowledgeable on the subject...and I know you are in here.

Related, are regulatory requirements, which in Canada are https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/acquisition-storage-sale/rocket-motors/15934 and the US https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=1122&DocNum=1122 and https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages?mode=code&code=1127&DocNum=1127
 
Every Aerotech load I have ever flown,,
the fuel grains came in a sealed plastic anti static bag...
I have heard this topic before but wasn't sure if any concern is necessary..
I've also had 10 year old loads work just fine though they are more difficult to ignite...

I really don't think you have to worry about this too much....

Teddy
 
Every Aerotech load I have ever flown,,
the fuel grains came in a sealed plastic anti static bag...
I have heard this topic before but wasn't sure if any concern is necessary..
I've also had 10 year old loads work just fine though they are more difficult to ignite...

I really don't think you have to worry about this too much....

Teddy

Hey Teddy,

Thanks for the response. My concern was less about the motor being compromised due to it's age and storage environment and more to do with doing something well "stupid" Kind of like throwing a linseed oil soaked rag in the garbage then wondering why it spontaneously combusted. Which I am sure you are aware of but the point is that these things are not necessarily intuitive at least to the relative laymen.

Assuming AP has some off-gassing, then intuitively storing AP in a sealed box will allow these gases to accumulate, this is the obvious main concern but I have learned that there may be some not so obvious.
 
Hey Teddy,

Thanks for the response. My concern was less about the motor being compromised due to it's age and storage environment and more to do with doing something well "stupid" Kind of like throwing a linseed oil soaked rag in the garbage then wondering why it spontaneously combusted. Which I am sure you are aware of but the point is that these things are not necessarily intuitive at least to the relative laymen.

Assuming AP has some off-gassing, then intuitively storing AP in a sealed box will allow these gases to accumulate, this is the obvious main concern but I have learned that there may be some not so obvious.

Michael,,
I think you are interested in this as a safety issue...
I genuinely don't mean to belittle that,, on the contrary,, I applaud it..
But I think as long as you are reasonably attentive and cognitive of what you are doing,,
I don't think there is a lot to be concerned about..

Teddy
 
Michael,,
I think you are interested in this as a safety issue...
I genuinely don't mean to belittle that,, on the contrary,, I applaud it..
But I think as long as you are reasonably attentive and cognitive of what you are doing,,
I don't think there is a lot to be concerned about..

Teddy

I hear you Teddy, but I figure there is no harm in being over cautious with this stuff as the worst case is I may learn something.

Plus who wants to be up for a Darwin award down the road.
 
I seal my motors now. Especially the ones not sealed well. AT's Economax are a clamshell that is not air tight. I seal them with a desiccant packet. Same with my research grains.

Old AT reloads had 1 loose grain with the others sealed. The loose grain would oxidize, the sealed ones did not. I have no experience with CTI, Loki, AMW, Gorilla, Kosdon, but I would imagine similar rules apply. Some reloads age better than others. AT White Lightning gets an oxidation layer, Blue Thunder does not (or take longer).
 
I seal my motors now. Especially the ones not sealed well. AT's Economax are a clamshell that is not air tight. I seal them with a desiccant packet. Same with my research grains.

Old AT reloads had 1 loose grain with the others sealed. The loose grain would oxidize, the sealed ones did not. I have no experience with CTI, Loki, AMW, Gorilla, Kosdon, but I would imagine similar rules apply. Some reloads age better than others. AT White Lightning gets an oxidation layer, Blue Thunder does not (or take longer).

Oh yeahhhh,,
That's right,,,
It was the Aerotech Whites that had that oxidized layer on them,, worse then any others...
As long as you know they're going to be difficult to light and take the necessary steps right off,,, no problem...

Yes,, I understand Michael,,,
Good for you man,,,
You've never read in the newspaper about somebody being too careful....lol...

Teddy
 
I have a bunch of AT H White Lightening reloads with the white oxidization you are talking about. The only reloads I have are AT and CTI, the CTI of course are in the tubes and in sealed bags within the tubes, so I have no idea how oxidized they are if much at all. My biggest issue is we lost our local launch site for HPR so we are limited to MPR, and taking the reloads across the boarder for the US launches is just not an option. We leave everything behind, BP, igniters, motors, and pick it up at the US launch. So ideally finding a way to keep em fresh with a big emphasis on safe storage is the name of the game...but safety has to be first and foremost.
 
For AT whites make sure the grain from the sealed package is placed at the top of the motor since it doesnt have any oxidation it helps make ignition easier.
 
I have a bunch of AT H White Lightening reloads with the white oxidization you are talking about. The only reloads I have are AT and CTI, the CTI of course are in the tubes and in sealed bags within the tubes, so I have no idea how oxidized they are if much at all. My biggest issue is we lost our local launch site for HPR so we are limited to MPR, and taking the reloads across the boarder for the US launches is just not an option. We leave everything behind, BP, igniters, motors, and pick it up at the US launch. So ideally finding a way to keep em fresh with a big emphasis on safe storage is the name of the game...but safety has to be first and foremost.

What a shame Michael,,
I genuinely find this to be an educational hobby,,
particularly in science and math...
And you can't bring the loads across the border,,, that's terrible..

Teddy
 
The list of stuff that's a pita to cross the border with is looooonnnnnggggg.

Considering every motor I've gotten came sealed in one manner or another, I do not believe there would be any gas issues.
 
I have been storing my AT, CTI and AMW reloads in sealed Ammo boxes for years with no problems.
 
Is it possible to use a food vacuum to seal reloads for long time storage.
I tried it once with just the propellant grains and the results were mixed.
An AMW 54MM Sparky reload apparently out gassed enough that it looked like I had never pulled a vacuum on it. Some AT White Lightning reloads stayed sealed for over a year with out problems. I never got to use the AMW Sparky reload, long story, but the AT reloads worked fine.
 
The OP asked me to chime in so this is my advice.

The best environment to store your motors in is a cool, dry place, as both heat and water can alter or react with the chemicals in the propellant.

The major culprit is water (humidity) as it will react with metal fuels and eventually oxidize them. Aluminum and magnesium are the most common metal fuels used in rocketry. Both make the combustion hotter and the magnesium make the propellant easier to ignite. Aluminum burns to form Al2O3 and magnesium burns to form MgO. In storage H2O can slowly react with Al to make Al(OH)3 and some H2 and when heated Al2O3 with the elimination of H2O. Similarly Mg slowly reacts with H2O to make Mg(OH)2 plus H2 and when heated MgO with the elimination of H20. This is the white stuff you sometimes see on high aluminum propellants. Since oxidation already has occurred, an oxidized propellant grain will be hard to ignite and initially burn much slower than an identical propellant grain that has been stored in a dry environment. The same thing happens with the metals used to make colored flames, and the ionic salts that are also used for colored flames are hygroscopic and will form hydrated crystal which have a larger volume than the original crystal and can debond from the binder so keeping your motors in a dry environment is the best why to insure that they will work properly years from today.

Large temperature swings also can be problematic. As you cool anything it shrinks and as you heat anything it expands. Since a propellant is an inhomogeneous composite, different components expand and contract with different rates and large cyclic temperature swings can cause mechanical debonding if the various components in the propellant grain and possibly the casting tube from the propellant grain. High temperature can also cause certain chemical additives to migrate through the propellant grain. For example, in larger motors a bonding agent (rubber) might be used to coat the inside of a motor liner or casting tube. This rubber layer does not have any oxidizer or other additives in it so it will not oxidize. If the propellant grain is stored for very long time periods at very high temperatures, some components in the actual propellant can migrate by diffusion into this bonding layer and chemically change the properties.

In the US we do not normally have to store APCP propellant in a magazine as most APCP motors are not regulated. They still should be stored safely away from flame and in a secure location so they can be taken by an unauthorized person. Storing motors in an airtight container in the original packaging is recommended if you have a container of indicating silica gel to remove the water vapor from the air. You can get bulk indicating silica gel pellets from a florist supply house (used to dry flowers) or McMaster. You can purchase a premade container or make your own by taking a larger Tupperware container and filling it with indicating silica gel (1 pound or more), cover the top with nylon screening or cheesecloth, and use a Tupperware top with the center cut out to hold the screening in place. Place this inside your air-tight storage container and it will keep the air inside free of water vapor.

The silica gel has an infinite lifetime if you periodically regenerate it. Take a cookie sheet covered with baking paper and spread the silica gel pellets over it. Place the sheet in an oven at 250 F and keep it there for 12 hours (overnight). The indicating silica gel will go from a dull pink color to a brilliant iridescent blue when it is dry. Remove from the oven, and refill you container and put it back inside your air tight motor box.

As for the storage temperature. Look at the stuff in you medicine cabinet. Most drugs are stored near room temperature with temperature extremes not to exceed 50 F to 100F. Motors aren't that critical. For the most part, 35 F to 120 F should be ok for shorter times. If you go to a launch for a day and they get hotter or colder, I wouldn't worry, but I would try to keep them near room temperature or cooler.

FWIW.

Bob
 
Wow Michael,,
That was a good idea asking Bob K to get involved in this one.....
I should have thought to ask him....
I always ask him for all of my stuff,,,lol...
I didn't think of it....

Teddy
 
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