alternative to papering fins ?

Has anyone experimented with other methods of covering the balsa fins other than paper. I have several builds planned but find the whole papering method to be a PITA with less than perfect results.

I found the best way to do it is get two pieces of plywood cover with wax paper, mix wood glue (yellow, 60/40)with some water, paint that on the fins, cover fins with paper, place between the plywood and put spring clamps around the ply to hold the fins flat until dry

Fiberglass works well.

Greg

fallingrocket said:

Has anyone experimented with other methods of covering the balsa fins other than paper. I have several builds planned but find the whole papering method to be a PITA with less than perfect results.

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How are you applying the paper? When I first started papering, I tried to apply the paper to the fin and had mixed results, often getting bits of smudged glue on the wrong side of the paper. I've since found it easier to spread the glue on the paper laying flat, then press the fin into the paper. I haven't tried it yet, but others use glue sticks rather than white or yellow glue.

I am doing it as JJSR suggested. Diluting the glue, spreading it on the fins and pressing it flat till dry. Its the rest that I find a hassle.I,m using card stock and the edges get a bit ratty looking when sanded. And it seems there is always at least one spot where the paper layers separate and peel back or tear. I was kinda thinking maybe some of that iron on film used on planes would be a better option.

GregGleason said:

Fiberglass works well.

Greg

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Fiberglass on a small balsa fin seems like a ton of un needed work ?

fallingrocket said:

Fiberglass on a small balsa fin seems like a ton of un needed work ?

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After you get the hang of Glassing with Lightweight Cloth, it's actually less work in my opinion than papering.

TopRamen said:

After you get the hang of Glassing with Lightweight Cloth, it's actually less work in my opinion than papering.

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Interesting I would not have guessed. I have some very light glass mat thats almost like tissue paper. I may have to experiment.

TopRamen said:

After you get the hang of Glassing with Lightweight Cloth, it's actually less work in my opinion than papering.

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What weight do you use on the smaller stuff?

cavecentral said:

What weight do you use on the smaller stuff?

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So far, .75oz. through and up to 2.3oz. for fins.
Infact, I think you gave me some of the stuff I've been using recently.
I just got some .5oz cloth today in the mail and will be trying that soon too.

fallingrocket said:

Interesting I would not have guessed. I have some very light glass mat thats almost like tissue paper. I may have to experiment.

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If you are thinking about trying it, check out the "Fiberglass Basics" Thread. It may be helpful.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?122170-fiberglass-basics

fallingrocket said:

I am doing it as JJSR suggested. Diluting the glue, spreading it on the fins and pressing it flat till dry. Its the rest that I find a hassle.I,m using card stock and the edges get a bit ratty looking when sanded. And it seems there is always at least one spot where the paper layers separate and peel back or tear. I was kinda thinking maybe some of that iron on film used on planes would be a better option.

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Try using not so thick of a paper, you only need it to hold the gran of the wood together, ideally you want the glue to soak through/into the fin and paper. also try trimming the paper close then prime before final sanding, the paint will help with the fuzz's
I've used tissue paper for contest rockets with great results, strong fins and light weight.

+1 for using 1/64th 3ply plywood over balsa fins. Particularly on larger fins. As previously mentioned 60/40 thinned yellow carpenters glue.
painted on both sides of balsa fin then sandwitch. place all the laminated fins between two pieces of wax paper and weight with several heavy books over night. When dry trim/sand to shape and they are ready to attach and finish.

TopRamen said:

After you get the hang of Glassing with Lightweight Cloth, it's actually less work in my opinion than papering.

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Hmm. I thought fiberglass was more for HPR. Now I'm curious. Do you know of any tutorials I could check out?

Edit:

TopRamen said:

If you are thinking about trying it, check out the "Fiberglass Basics" Thread. It may be helpful.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?122170-fiberglass-basics

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Forget my previous question. I should have read further down the thread.

Before you completely give up on papering fins, I'd point you in the direction of my tutorial.

fallingrocket said:

I am doing it as JJSR suggested. Diluting the glue, spreading it on the fins and pressing it flat till dry. Its the rest that I find a hassle.I,m using card stock and the edges get a bit ratty looking when sanded. And it seems there is always at least one spot where the paper layers separate and peel back or tear. I was kinda thinking maybe some of that iron on film used on planes would be a better option.

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I use printer paper, cardstock is way too heavy. I use spray adheasive to attach it to the balsa fins and let it set before trimming close to the edge. Then I soak the paper using thin CA (do this outside or well ventilated area to avoid fumes). I spread the CA using a plastic sandwich bag. Once dry, CA can be sanded very easily, including the edges. You can always touch up with CA in unlikely case of paper fraying at the edges.

I use Avery Full Sheet Label paper. It is self adhesive and goes on like big decal. Simply cut the label to the shape of the raw fin ,apply the label, break the edges with 220 grit. You can then shape the air foil of the fin and lastly seal the edges with CA. Only takes about 10 minutes looks great painted and holds up well to normal use.

I usually use whatever 8.5x11 sheet paper I have on hand. I've gotten rid of a lot of the packing lists and receipts that came in boxes from BMS, Uncle Mikes, etc that way, so it's not uncommon for an unpainted rocket to have a list of rocket-related part numbers and such printed on the fins... I typically use the fin pattern to cut the paper to size, then put a thin layer of Titebond on the wood and press the paper in place. I usually do this after I've sanded the fin edges round or airfoiled, and when the paper is glue saturated, it conforms quite readily. Layered between wax paper and pressed flat under weight to dry. I make a point of doing all fins in the same order (left side than right side or vice-versa) so that if they so have a slight warp due to the first side setting up before the other is finished, they will theoretically all be the same (thus give an "intentional" spin characteristic). So far, though, that really hasn't been an issue.

thin ca

Padseven said:

I use Avery Full Sheet Label paper. It is self adhesive and goes on like big decal. Simply cut the label to the shape of the raw fin ,apply the label, break the edges with 220 grit. You can then shape the air foil of the fin and lastly seal the edges with CA. Only takes about 10 minutes looks great painted and holds up well to normal use.

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I like the sounds of this method

Ok I figure my main problem has been using card stock. I picked up a roll of adhesive paper. The avery lables were way too expensive. I got a roll about 18"x 4ft for 3$. Much better. It has a grid pattern printed on it but its not glossy so it should be easy to paint over. I also go extreme glue sticks and craft paper. So I have enough to do some experimenting.

You can try Monokote, then you don't have to paint the fins at all. After you iron it on and trim the edges, use an X-Acto knife to cut about 1/8" off from the root of the fin so you can glue and fillet it to your body tube.

cerving said:

You can try Monokote, then you don't have to paint the fins at all. After you iron it on and trim the edges, use an X-Acto knife to cut about 1/8" off from the root of the fin so you can glue and fillet it to your body tube.

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I think it would be great. Especially on bigger builds where you would have large enough fins to cut holes for weight reduction then cover with film. You would have a choice of solid colors or transparent. It would also wipe clean very easily of your fins got dirty from landings.

I recently started papering fins and it was much easier for me. I use a glue stick and any kind of printer paper I have lying around, as long as its not wadded up or creased. Smear glue on the paper, less messy. You are using too thick of paper. Try thinner paper and you will like the results.

But for an alternative....you can use elmers wood filler on your balsa fins. I have used it with mixed results. If you water it down too much it will warp the fins. You will have a good bit of sanding to do but you can get em really smooth. I got to where I would just rub it on as is without thinning it - even more sanding.

Mike

fallingrocket said:

Ok I figure my main problem has been using card stock. I picked up a roll of adhesive paper. The avery lables were way too expensive. I got a roll about 18"x 4ft for 3$. Much better. It has a grid pattern printed on it but its not glossy so it should be easy to paint over. I also go extreme glue sticks and craft paper. So I have enough to do some experimenting.

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Extreme glue sticks? I'll have to check into them. I bought some permanent sticks, but the glue still isn't that great. Also, I bought a 4 pack and 3 of them ended up turning moldy. Strange?
I me-self have not had the best of luck papering. I too always get a spot or two that peels/lifts later down the road. Some lifted way later down the road. The paper on me beautiful " Razors Edge" fins are lifting. :sad:
Anywhoo-- good luck.
And remember...we love pictures.

I did some more papering. This time I used the glue stick method. That is def easier than using wood glue. I found it better to put the glue on the wood rather than the paper. The wood grain pulls a lot more glue off the stick.Its easy to get the paper smooth with no wrinkles. I have it pressed for the night, hopefully it will be all nice and flat in the am and ready to use.

cerving said:

You can try Monokote, then you don't have to paint the fins at all. After you iron it on and trim the edges, use an X-Acto knife to cut about 1/8" off from the root of the fin so you can glue and fillet it to your body tube.

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I did that on a rocket once as a teenager. At a club launch that had a aesthetic judging aspect, the judges looked at my "unconventional" means of finishing the fins and took points off for it. Apparently, trying to be innovative don't always pay off. But I agree, this is a great alternative in practical terms. A light ply fin with a mass-relief cutouts, covered in transparent or translucent heat shrink would look pretty good. It would give a retro or steampunk look.

Do Avery labels work? I heard they did, but haven't tried them or papering. Most stuff I build is plywood or fiberglass.

downside to monokote is that it can be a challenge to get any air bubbles out when applying it to a non-porous surface (like G10 fins ). then to some times you need 3 hands... I don't know how much strength it would add but, the stick and tissue model airplane builders suggest a glue stick for applying tissue. I've tried it for sticking tissue onto a wing(sky dart) as a 'detail' bits, works nicely for sticking templates down, they have a fast dry time. biggest problem I've had with cardstock was when I tried using some that was 'coated'(florescent).
Rex

I been using Avery full sheet label paper on my fins as well. I first tried it on an Alpha and it worked great.....I've just finished papering a Quest Harpoon and it turned out quite good too. My next project is an Estes Bullpup 12D that I'll start today. I'm hooked on labels!