Chopped Carbon question?

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AfterBurners

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I purchased A-4001 chopped carbon fiber 1/8" from Wildman.


What is the consistency you want when mixing it with the 105/205 resin and hardener for fin fillets on a fiber glass kit?
 
Thicker than hot sauce and thinner than ketchup. You want it to flow fairly well down the joint. You will definitely know when you have added too much. :wink:

Doug
 
With chopped carbon, I usually only add a pinch. A little dab goes a long way.
 
It depends on your purpose. Randomly oriented fibers do fairly little structurally compared to oriented fibers. Carbon fibers are also much stiffer than epoxy. If one were to use only a low fiber content, then once the load bearing capabilities of the carbon are exceeded the fibers break. Then the joint loses stiffness which can lead to a secondary failure of the epoxy at somewhere around 1 to 3% deformation causing total failure of the joint. Adding carbon to epoxy does not make the joint stronger unless enough is used to exceed the original strength of the epoxy. It will start to make a joint stiffer in even rather small quantities. But that may not be an advantage as the joint is only stiffer until the few fibers taking the load break from being overloaded.

Adding chopped carbon to the point where the epoxy will still flow I consider to be in the feel-good range of composite structures. One might feel good about it, but it isn't doing much useful other than being a coloring agent.

Just to prove it to yourself, make up your mix with the chopped fibers, and run a bead into a folded edge of some wax paper. Let it cure well, say, perhaps a week if elevated temperature cure is not used. Do the same without the chopped fibers. Even better, join two pieces of G10 or similar using just a fillet of each.

Now break the test samples. See what you think.

Gerald
 
I agree with Gerald. Optimal composite structures are something like 35% epoxy and the rest the carbon. This is not injectable though. I would try a test with 50/50 and see if you can apply it that way.
 
At 50/50, it won't really be mixable. One ends up with a carbon fiber sponge with lots of air. Brittle, and like handling a nasty porcupine... A sponge with attitude... At least that is what I found when I tried it (not for injectable fillets but as a filler in a structural area that I just wanted improved crack resistance). I gave up on it and moved on to other materials.

Gerald
 
I'm not sure why one is trying to use fibers for this job anyway. There are ceramic additives, and other structural additives, that can blend smoothly with the epoxy, provide essentially isotropic improvement of mechanical properties, and would be injectable if that is what you really want to do.

Gerald
 
There are ceramic additives, and other structural additives, that can blend smoothly with the epoxy, provide essentially isotropic improvement of mechanical properties, and would be injectable if that is what you really want to do.

Such as?
 
The ceramic additives used to be hard to find at least. There were 3 manufacturers, only one of which would sell their product. The other three were using it in house for R&D and probably various high end contracts. The purpose of the ceramic additives is for improving matrix properties in a fabric layup - which is essentially the same thing one wants to do with these fillets. I was looking because I was making a bladder molded composite part and I keep my eyes open for ways to make small refinements. These are a nano powder ceramic likely with a particle morphology that is not too far from spherical as flow properties needed to be maintained for their original purpose of fabric wetout.

As usual, whenever someone asks about it, I failed to find it in a moderate search. I probably have some info buried on this computer somewhere but it would take me an hour to find it. So I'll suggest others do their own search. Google does not make it as easy to find things as used to be the case. I get pages of scholarly articles nowdays.

The product one is looking for is available in pound quantities in jars and they would sell to the public. The price wasn't even all that bad. One just mixes up a batch of laminating resin and then mixes in the ceramic nanoparticles (I'd suggest having a HEPA filter near by and being careful not to get dust floating in the air). Then use like normal. The more one adds, the thicker it gets, just like most any other filler. In an ideal world one would vacuum or ultrasonic degas of course. But these internal injected fillets people are doing likely don't add all that much strength anyway, so I doubt it matters much. The little fillet naturally present from getting a good glue bond in the first place is likely fully sufficient. A bigger fillet on the inside probably adds more mass than it adds strength.

For fillers more easily obtainable, of good quality: https://www.westsystem.com/ss/filler-selection-guide/ I'd probably use a blend of 404 and 407 as a starting point and see how it goes.

Anecdotally I can tell you that 3 micron aluminum oxide platelet crystals (closest to spherical morphology) makes an interesting structural additive. But the price would have been a bit prohibitive for a hobbyist. I played with it a bit, close to 30 years ago. I probably should have persued it. It would still flow out to form a nice white glassy fillet at fairly high concentrations, and there was no cutting or sanding it when it was done unless one was using diamond tools. It's probably cheap now if one can find it. But one would need to test, rather than trust my old info.

Gerald
 
At 50/50, it won't really be mixable. One ends up with a carbon fiber sponge with lots of air. Brittle, and like handling a nasty porcupine... A sponge with attitude... At least that is what I found when I tried it (not for injectable fillets but as a filler in a structural area that I just wanted improved crack resistance). I gave up on it and moved on to other materials.

Gerald

I usually use kevlar pulp like this. It is not a finished fillet by any means, but has worked really well. It is stringy versus prickly. Applied with a small spoon. Once set, apply filler over the top and sand.
 
I agree with Gerald. Optimal composite structures are something like 35% epoxy and the rest the carbon. This is not injectable though. I would try a test with 50/50 and see if you can apply it that way.


Couldn't I use the mix just for external fillets?? Maybe use a different mix combination for internal fillets? Say use silica instead??
 
I purchased A-4001 chopped carbon fiber 1/8" from Wildman.
What are you trying to achieve with it? Chopped fibers won't add much stiffness and will make the fillet harder to smooth.

If you think you need more stiffness, then running fabric tip-to-tip will achieve that, but it's a lot more work.
 
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