California Drought

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ThirstyBarbarian

ThirstyBarbarian

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This drought just keeps getting worse. Last year was pretty bad, but this year is shaping up to be even worse than that. In some of the basins we've had about the same rainfall as last year, which was bad. But we've had much less snowfall, and snowpack is where a lot of our water comes from. Currently, statewide, snowpack is about 6% of normal. Most reservoirs have been drawn down from normal by last years drought, but some actually have a bit more than what they started with last year. When there is not enough surface water, the state relies on groundwater wells, and the groundwater was drawn down significantly last year and will be tapped again this year.

The Governor recently announced a mandatory cut of 25% to all water agencies. These agencies serve something like 90% of the state's population in towns and cities. For the most part they do not serve agricultural customers who will be getting water through other types of sources and from groundwater pumping.

From a rocketry point of view, I wonder what the drought is going to mean for our launch sites. Fire danger is always a consideration on CA, so it might mot make a huge difference. My club's HPR site is planning a launch this weekend, but future ones planned for April and May are canceled --- that's not really unusual, even in non-drought years. But I'm wondering about some of the other sites in the state.
 
Well, much of Southern California is desert, or similar under the best of conditions.

Jerry Brown's steps will not work for long if at all.

CA needs to take a look at the desalination plants they have in Israel. That might be the ticket. Still will take a long time to build and get working on the needed scale.
 
Most of the launch sites are already on drought proof ground anyway. ROC has Lucerne Dry lake. LUNAR has Moffett during the summer. Tripoli SD launches off an unused airport.

I'm not sure if TCC would have a problem or not. The farm might just plow the field and leave it dry. I can't imagine that there would be a fire hazard unless they let it go to weeds.
 
There's no way they could ever make desalination economical enough to replace all of the water needed by the cities let alone agriculture.

Recently the water districts have talked about restricting how much water the the farmers can pump from their own wells and how they get to use the water they do pump. Last summer many wells in the central valley went dry. Entire towns had to have water trucked in from neighboring areas. This year it's going to be even worse.

Most people don't realize that we have 6-7 year cycle here in CA. It's dry for 4-5 years and then it rains for 2-3. This time around it's been 5 years since we had a really wet winter. This last winter was one of, if not THE driest year on record.

IMHO the state should charge much more for water ALL of the time. There should also be restrictions on water usage ALL of the time. As it is by the time they put restrictions on water usage there's nothing left.

markkoelsch said:
Well, much of Southern California is desert, or similar under the best of conditions.

Jerry Brown's steps will not work for long if at all.

CA needs to take a look at the desalination plants they have in Israel. That might be the ticket. Still will take a long time to build and get working on the needed scale.
Click to expand...
 
Yep charge more for the water.
Question is who owns it?

Portions of TCCs area has been fallow (Not planted for lack of water) for years. The landowner moves us around to the best field available, and some times he comes out and works the land to make it better for us.
Hooray! for Maddox Farms!
 
ChrisAttebery said:
There's no way they could ever make desalination economical enough to replace all of the water needed by the cities let alone agriculture.

Recently the water districts have talked about restricting how much water the the farmers can pump from their own wells and how they get to use the water they do pump. Last summer many wells in the central valley went dry. Entire towns had to have water trucked in from neighboring areas. This year it's going to be even worse.

Most people don't realize that we have 6-7 year cycle here in CA. It's dry for 4-5 years and then it rains for 2-3. This time around it's been 5 years since we had a really wet winter. This last winter was one of, if not THE driest year on record.

IMHO the state should charge much more for water ALL of the time. There should also be restrictions on water usage ALL of the time. As it is by the time they put restrictions on water usage there's nothing left.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on the water pricing. There's still a lot of waste because water is subsidized in many ways.

It's true that many wells in the Valley went dry last year, and many more will go dry this year, and one of the problems with drilling deeper and pumping more is that the aquifers actually collapse. Usually they can be recharged naturally with rainfall or can actually have water pumped into the aquifer to artificially recharge it for storage, but once the aquifer collapses, the storage capacity is decreased permanently.
 
Texas, especially west Texas, has been in the grip of a severe drought for several years. Much of the water we get here in north Texas actually comes from the aquifer in the Texas Panhandle and the rainfall to replenish it has not been falling. This is what I was told by a 30 year employee of South Grayson Water Supply Corporation.

The late Harold Taft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Taft always used to say, "It takes a flood to break a drought". Amen, brother Harold. Rest in Peace.
 
I live in Western Oklahoma and we are entering our 6th year of drought. The affects on the agri-business throughout this region has been profound, none of it good.

I’m also aware that these conditions extend throughout Western Kansas, Nebraska and Texas which includes much of America’s “Bread Basket”, a whole lot of wheat is not being grown.

The thing I’m wondering about California’s agriculture is whether the vineyards are going to die-out?
Like orchards, vineyards take years to come to fruition unlike planting most other crops. I mean with wheat, corn and such you can have a drought for a couple of years and when it begins raining again you can plant and harvest as if nothing had happened.

Unless of course the farmers have sold off their land and moved on to other means of making a living. Once that land falls into the hands of people other than farmers/ranchers it’s basically impossible to return it to the growing of food.
People who live and work in California’s agri-business are all too familiar with that concept.

I have no idea how California is going to endure should these drought conditions continue for even two more years, much less the decades some “Experts” are predicting.
Los Angeles’ water needs have already made Owens Valley a desert in all but name and eventually they are going to run out of far distant water sources they can tap.

America’s Rail Roads are running unit “Tank Trains” in record numbers, hauling crude oil hither and yawn between where it’s extracted and where it is refined.
I wonder if very shortly we won’t start seeing unit Tank Trains hauling water into California from. . .Actually I haven’t a clue where that might be.
 
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The crazy thing is that here on the east coast, at least at MDRA, our launches keep getting rained or snowed out.
 
boomtube-mk2 said:
I live in Western Oklahoma and we are entering our 6th year of drought. The affects on the agri-business throughout this region has been profound, none of it good.

I’m also aware that these conditions extend throughout Western Kansas, Nebraska and Texas which includes much of America’s “Bread Basket”, a whole lot of wheat is not being grown.

The thing I’m wondering about California’s agriculture is whether the vineyards are going to die-out?
Like orchards, vineyards take years to come to fruition unlike planting most other crops. I mean with wheat, corn and such you can have a drought for a couple of years and when it begins raining again you can plant and harvest as if nothing had happened.

Unless of course the farmers have sold off their land and moved on to other means of making a living. Once that land falls into the hands of people other than farmers/ranchers it’s basically impossible to return it to the growing of food.
People who live and work in California’s agri-business are all too familiar with that aspect.

I have no idea how California is going to endure should these drought conditions continue for even two more years, much less the decades some “Experts” are predicting.
Los Angeles’ water needs have already made Owens Valley a desert in all but name and eventually they are going to run out of far distant water sources they can tap.

America’s Rail Roads are running unit “Tank Trains” in record numbers, hauling crude oil hither and yawn between where it’s extracted and where it is refined.
I wonder if very shortly we won’t start seeing unit Tank Trains hauling water into California from. . .Actually I haven’t a clue where that might be.
Click to expand...

Grape vines are pretty hardy and can survive periods of drought fairly well. And in some cases, wine produced from grapes grown under drier and warmer conditions can be even better than wine from grapes grown under normal conditions --- sugar content can be higher and more concentrated, skins can be thicker, and that can make for good wine. But the plants aren't invincible, and their productivity will decline and stop if it gets dry enough for long enough. Eventually they can die too. More likely what would happen is that the plant would survive, but the vinyard might not, due to low productivity.

I titled the thread California Drought, but you are right that drought conditions are affecting the entire southwest and into the central plains. And I've also read what you alluded to that some experts think there is a possibility of a so-called mega drought that would affect that entire region for a decade or more. I didn't bring it up because the topic veers close to the subject which must not speak its name! But there is geological evidence for such long-term droughts in the southwest and central plains in the past, and it certainly could happen again. In that case we would lose a large part of both our "Bread Basket" and our "Salad Bowl", plus a decent chunk of our "Nut and Cheese Tray" and "Wine Bar".
 
I once attended a lecture concerning the natural history of Western Oklahoma its lands and the Native Americans that periodically inhabited it.

I say periodically because this region has over many years gone from near rainforest to desert in a matter of just a decade or less. And then just as rapidly it has returned to rain, rain, and still more rain; so the people who lived here, prior to the arrival of the “Pale Faces”, would migrate to and fro as the conditions warranted.

We on the other hand built towns and cities that are a bit more difficult to pick-up and move thus if this region goes back to being desert there’s going to be a whole lot of caterwauling as to what to do with all the people.

On the other hand, it won’t be nearly as bad as it will be in California should it revert to complete desert conditions as the total population of OK is vastly less than L.A. Co. alone.

On the gripping hand if 30million Californians decide to move east looking for better conditions things could get God-Awful in a hurry.
 
I've heard the same thing about the variability of the western climate. And there is some evidence that we have been living in a very benign period of good, reliable precipitation. We've built our cities and infrastructure for a condition that might not last.

I think California will probably always have enough water to supply the cities with drinking water. It's not like we are just going to dry up and blow away like the Pueblo people and Anasazi civilization. We might not be able to water our lawns, but we shouldn't have lawns anyway --- it's a carryover from the kinds of gardens people were used to before they came to California, and it has never been appropriate for this climate. Everyone needs to get a sense of place and plant the stuff that grows here --- native plants and mediterranean climate plants.

What I'm not optimistic about is the agriculture, especially for water-intensive crops. The state has never really gotten the kind of rainfall that can support non-irrigated farming of most kinds of crops. We've always relied on moving the water from where it falls to where it is needed. And we've relied on storing water from winter to use in summer --- the snowpack that falls in winter and melts throughout the summer, the groundwater that gets recharged in the winter, and the reservoirs that store water. If the snow doesn't fall, the reservoirs are not refilled, and the groundwater is depleted, then there really is nothing else we will be able to do. It's physics.
 
markkoelsch said:
Well, much of Southern California is desert, or similar under the best of conditions.

CA needs to take a look at the desalination plants they have in Israel. That might be the ticket. Still will take a long time to build and get working on the needed scale.
Click to expand...

Good idea. In fact it’s such a good idea, they’re going to finish a desalinization plant in North San Diego County towards the end of this year.

It’s a large plant. It will supply 50 million gallons per day, which will supply a large number of homes and businesses in the north county area, freeing up other precious water for the rest of the city.

https://carlsbaddesal.com/desalination-plant1

From the link:
State, regional and local water plans all have confirmed that immediate and pressing water needs cannot be accomplished without some investment in seawater desalination.

  • The project will provide 56,000 AFY of new water supply for the San Diego region.
  • The CA Department of Water Resources’ 2009 Water Plan Update identifies the need for 275,000 AF of desalinated water by 2025.
  • The Metropolitan Water District of Southern California’s Integrated Water Resources Plan identifies a need for 150,000 AFY of seawater desalination (including 56,000 AFY from the Carlsbad project) by the year 2020.
  • The San Diego County Water Authority’s (SDCWA) Urban Water Management Plan identifies a need for 56,000 AFY of seawater desalination from the Carlsbad project by 2016.
I'm sure once the success of this plant is seen and the state slides deeper into drought, more plants will be built.
 
But that plant will provide only 7% of San Diego’s water needs. 7%!!!
You’re going to need a whole lot of DeSal plants before you’re going to make much of a dent in SoCal’s water needs.
Then there’s the energy required to operate those plants. Where’s that coming from?
I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done but you have to look at reality with regards to these things.

California is in a real jam here and that assumes they have enough water to grow the fruit to make the jam in the first place.
As a native born SoCal boy I can’t believe it has reached this point. I can remember years when it didn’t rain all that much but then again I can remember years when it rained so hard the San Gabriel River overflowed its banks and flooded much of the San Gabriel Valley; times when Azusa, Covina, Glendora etc were best accessed by shallow draft boats.
 
These pictures were taken today...

First: I64 near Ferdinand, IN...

Two: HWY 22 near Goose Creek in Louisville, KY...

Next Two: Shively area of Louisville, KY...

Last Two: GE Appliance Park on FIRE in Louisville, KY...

Currently under a Tornado Warning... (no sharks expected)

It was reported that our Wave 3 veiwing area experienced

2,400 lightning stikes every 15 minutes last evening...:y:

I'll take this over a sustained DROUGHT any day...

IMG_2084.JPG

IMG_2083.JPG

IMG_2082.JPG

IMG_2081.JPG

IMG_2080.jpg

IMG_2079.JPG
 
boomtube-mk2 said:
But that plant will provide only 7% of San Diego’s water needs. 7%!!!
You’re going to need a whole lot of DeSal plants before you’re going to make much of a dent in SoCal’s water needs.
Then there’s the energy required to operate those plants. Where’s that coming from?
I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done but you have to look at reality with regards to these things.
Click to expand...

So we use some power and get some water. I'm not sure I see the problem.

Are you angry because the plant isn't satisfying 100% of San Diego's water needs?
 
I think there is a lot of potential savings with water recycling. People are super turned off by the idea of recycled water being put back into the potable water supply, but it can definitely be used for irrigating landscaping and flushing toilets. In my area we have a lot of "purple pipes" which carry recycled water. Almost all of the parks and other public spaces are irrigated with recycled water. You see the purple sprinkler heads and valve boxes and signs that say "Recycled water do not drink." That's a great first step and should be expanded. I've heard that most of the recycled water has been purified and treated to the standard of potable water, but the public mostly isn't ready to accept it as drinking water. I bet that changes soon. I also think some agencies are using recycled water to recharge their aquifers too --- so in that case, the public does end up drinking it eventually.
 
I thought all water was recycled...

BTW, you can have some of ours...

Come and get it...
 
Things can and could get worse- look up the Dust Bowl. Frankly, there is likely no way to support the water needs of California as they stand currently unless there is a significant change in weather patterns or a very significant investment in water production via desalination occurs. I am not talking a plant that will do 7% of San Diego's needs - I am talking a lot of plants like this up and down the coast.

If that does not happen CA or large portions of it could become largely uninhabitable.
 
The California drought cycle has been repeating itself long before Western man moved in.

The development of large population centers where there was insufficient water to support their needs only made the problem worse. The Los Angeles basin for all intents and purposes has no ground water to tap and has sucked the neighboring lands dry. By neighboring I don't just mean the Owens Valley desert but the canal system that drains Northern California snowpack run off. As Southern California continues to draw population, the water situation there grows increasingly unsustainable.

There are some other factors at play as well. The Central Valley, aka Foodbasket of the US, is rather wealthy and largely Republican. Limiting water supplies and rights in this area serves two purposes...water to Southern California (largely Democratic) and removing Republican political clout from the Central Valley.

When the answer isn't obvious, the answer is always money.
When you can't identify the mark in a con, it's always you.
Politics is always a dirty game.
 
I stopped watering my lawn everyday over a year ago.... now maybe just once a week, and my fern just about a minute every other day or so. There is an imposing $500 fine for hosing down ones driveway/sidewalk. The majority of water usage comes from landscaping, more people need to be conscience and just cut back. That would help alot. Think about all the golf courses and such.......
 
Break out the umbrellas
usa_033.jpg
 
MarkH said:
Break out the umbrellas
usa_033.jpg
Click to expand...

My local forecast is for rain late tonight and into tomorrow, which is great.

It actually rained for just a few minutes on Easter. They say every bit helps, but sometimes I wonder. It seemed like we barely got enough to soak into the ground but easily enough to dampen an Easter egg hunt. Why is it the only rain that seems to come during a drought always happens at the most inconvenient time? Oh well...

Tonight and tomorrow will be fine. I hope we get plenty of rain out of it.
 
kelltym88 said:
I stopped watering my lawn everyday over a year ago.... now maybe just once a week, and my fern just about a minute every other day or so. There is an imposing $500 fine for hosing down ones driveway/sidewalk. The majority of water usage comes from landscaping, more people need to be conscience and just cut back. That would help alot. Think about all the golf courses and such.......
Click to expand...

It sounds like you've really cut back. Once a week for the lawn is pretty low usage, so that's great. One thing you can do that really helps with lawns is to aerate the lawn. The holes help the water to soak in instead of run off.

Another way to prevent run off is to break up the watering session to give a chance for the water to soak in. Instead of watering for 15 minutes straight, go for 5 minutes, turn it off to soak in, 5 minutes more, turn it off, and 5 minutes more.

I got rid of my lawn a long time ago, so I don't really remember the stats for how much water a lawn needs. You can find out how many inches it needs, put a can out in the lawn when you water to find out how many inches you are getting when you water, adjust time if necessary, then divide that into little bursts to prevent runoff.

A few other tips about lawns. They don't really need all the fertilizer people usually use. Fertilizer makes lawns grow faster than they need to, and that takes more water. Fine compost is better because it provides nutrients, and it also helps hold moisture. If you get a mulching mower, you can leave the clippings on the lawn, and they will act as compost, provide nutrients, and help retain moisture too. Don't mow too short.

Of course, the best thing to do with a lawn in California is to get rid of it or at least reduce it. Replace it with a California or Mediterranean garden. You can cut your water way back, stop using fertilizer, and give up mowing forever.
 
Just wait for the water pipelines from the Wisconsin area of Lake Superior to Los Angeles. Problem solved.
 
JStarStar said:
Just wait for the water pipelines from the Wisconsin area of Lake Superior to Los Angeles. Problem solved.
Click to expand...

That would make no sense considering we are already dropping the water level of the Great Lakes. You are next to the Pacific- use it.
 
markkoelsch said:
Things can and could get worse- look up the Dust Bowl.
Click to expand...

The “Dust Bowl” was caused as much by bad agricultural techniques as well as a collapse in farm product prices, as it was a lack of precipitation.
What is almost never mentioned in “Dust Bowl” histories is that during this period of time many bumper crops of wheat and corn were produced throughout the affected region.

They sat un-harvested in the fields or rotting in silos, because a: It would cost more to harvest the crop than the farmers could get for the harvest and b: the collapse of many RRs with the results being there was no means by which the silos could get the crop to markets.

Two or three events such as the above was the major cause of many farm failures and was why so many Oklahomans and Kansans abandoned their lands and homes and moved elsewhere.
Because the other thing rarely mentioned in “Dust Bowl” histories is how many non-farm workers were put out of work due to all those failed railroads.
 
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boomtube-mk2 said:
Two or three events such as the above was the major cause of many farm failures and was why so many Oklahomans and Kansans abandoned their lands and homes and moved elsewhere.
Click to expand...

And by "elsewhere," you mean California! Many refugees from the Dust Bowl resettled in California.

By the way, it's raining right now! It's only a drop in the bucket, of course. But when the bucket is this dry, every drop counts. I hope we get a good soaking out of it.
 
Exactimator said:
So we use some power and get some water. I'm not sure I see the problem.

Are you angry because the plant isn't satisfying 100% of San Diego's water needs?
Click to expand...


No anger here; I’m just realistic about these things.

Your comment “So we’ll use SOME power” is part of the unrealistic aspect about this venture and De-Sal. in general.

It doesn’t take “Some power” it takes one whopping huge amount of power and that energy has to come from somewhere. California in and of itself doesn’t even begin to produce enough electricity, refined petroleum products or natural gas to satisfy its own energy requirements and now it is going to need even more if California attempts to ramp-up de-sal plants. Where’s that going to come from?

This reminds me a bit about a documentary I saw way back in the early ‘80s about how much additional electricity would be required if Sothern California commuters started driving battery/electric cars in mass and the enormous increase in electricity demands that would entail.
 

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