Creating a Pressure-Fed Liquid Fueled Sounding Rocket

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LukaPeradze1

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Hello! My name is Luka Peradze and i am a rocketry enthusiast. I have some experience in creating rockets in that i have created 4 solid fueled rockets. I am attempting to make a liquid fueled sounding rocket, which will be pressure fed. I have thought of using Kerosene and the fuel, and liquid oxygen as the oxidizer, however i can change these. I have run into some trouble while designing the Rocket. I will have two tanks inside the rocket one for the fuel and the other of oxidizer. In order to force these into the combustion chamber i was thinking of using compressed gas to force them into the combustion chamber. My issue is that i don't know how exactly to do this. I would greatly appreciate if you could help me.

Sincerely,

Luka Peradze
 
Not going to get what you are looking for here, not even close.
 
Easiest way will be to study hard and get into a good school. Continue to study hard, do some internships. Get a job with DoD or NASA (they scored the highest in the government for employee satisfaction last year). The rest should fall into place.
 
[video=youtube;VZt7J0iaUD0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZt7J0iaUD0[/video]
 
Maybe i should reword this. When i said "i dont know how to do this," i meant i have some design ideas that would work, but wanted advice to see if others could help me with some minor design aspects.
 
I see, Thank you for leading me in the right direction! I guess i will be leaving the forum now. If anyone has another suggestions or sites/forums i could visit please let me know!

Thanks for you help! :D
 
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I see, Thank you for leading me in the right direction! I guess i will be leaving the forum now. If anyone has another suggestions or sites/forums i could visit please let me know!

Thanks for you help! :D

You're welcome to stay. Solid Fuel Rockets are fun too, and this forum is fun in general.
There is a "Restricted Research Section" here too that you can get into if you have the proper credentials, like Tripoli Level 2 Certification.
 
Liquid rocket motors are several orders of magnitude more difficult to build than solids.

They are unforgiving if you make a mistake in your design, ignition method, fuel tankage and supply line, injectors, thrust chamber and nozzle cooling capacity, etc.

An they never fail gracefully: they explode far more violently than a solid.

This is not an amateur propulsion forum. We do not design motors, formulate propellant, etc. We only deal with commercial certified APCP motors, commercial certified black powder motors and commercial certified hybrid motors. We discuss the function these motors, how they work, and why they may have failed, and their performance and limitations.

Amateur (Tripoli Research and Indy) propulsion topics are discussed in the restricted access Research Forum.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?17943-Research-Forum-Access is the link providing the requirements you need to gain access to the Research Forum.

Bob Krech, TRF Administrator for Research Forum Access
 
Hello! My name is Luka Peradze and i am a rocketry enthusiast. I have some experience in creating rockets in that i have created 4 solid fueled rockets. I am attempting to make a liquid fueled sounding rocket, which will be pressure fed. I have thought of using Kerosene and the fuel, and liquid oxygen as the oxidizer, however i can change these. I have run into some trouble while designing the Rocket. I will have two tanks inside the rocket one for the fuel and the other of oxidizer. In order to force these into the combustion chamber i was thinking of using compressed gas to force them into the combustion chamber. My issue is that i don't know how exactly to do this. I would greatly appreciate if you could help me.

Sincerely,

Luka Peradze

Well I am currently working with pressure fed liquids at the moment, I'll give you a bit of insight into what you are getting yourself into.

First I'll give you an idea of what this system will cost. I wouldn't expect much less than ~$50,000 in cash or materials to get to at least performing static firings.

First off you have your cryogenic service equipment, hoses are $100 a foot, throttle valves are $2000 each, prevalves are $1000. Everything must be absolutely clean. Your tanks are a very considerable investment. No one really makes tanks that are really suitable for pressure fed rockets. DOT tanks have far too large of safety factors, and most are too small. So generally you have to custom make your tanks. You also need to make more than 2, around 6 at least would be reasonable, since you have to do failure testing on them since your safety factors are much smaller than normal pressure vessels. Pressure transducers run about $200+, you need at least 3, I suppose you could get away with 1 but you will regret not having the additional information on the feed side. You will also break transducers on your chamber, everyone does. So expect to have to buy several of them during your testing. Now you get to your high pressure system, seamless tubing is pretty cheap overall, fittings aren't all that expensive either. High pressure regulators are pretty dear in cost, $700+ for large ones, $300+ for small ones.

Unless you have a CNC machine in your home, chambers will cost several thousands each to get machined. You will also be making many of them. Destroying 20-30 chambers in a development effort isn't all that unreasonable. Most places who make liquids tends to have cabinets of broken hardware.

You pretty much have to use helium as a pressurant, nitrogen wont work because it is soluble in liquid oxygen. Having nitrogen present with oxygen in a high temperature environment (the combustion chamber) will make unhappy compounds that can damage your engine among other things. Helium currently is about $1000 for a T bottle, you will probably need 1 or 2 for each test at least, and I'd recommend some sort of high pressure scavenging system so you can consolidate the half filled bottles you would make.

Liquid oxygen isn't a joke to handle. Once you have your workflow in place it isn't too bad since you have everything ready, but before then you have to take a great care in what you do. For one you cant do any sort of transfer operations around any kind of petroleum product. Including asphalt, it forms a shock sensitive explosive with asphalt, and most other petroleum products. It is entirely possible to handle safely, but you just need to know the bad things it will do, and what situations to avoid.

Switching to other oxidizers wont really do all that much to reduce the cost of components in the long run. Every oxidizer has it's gotchas. After all you want them to support very vigorous combustion in your rocket, so it makes sense that they tend to support vigorous combustion outside your rocket as well.

So if you have $50-100,000 sitting in your bank waiting to get spent on something, and are willing to slow down a bit, and get your base research done it could be reasonable to start the development effort.

After all its not the things that you know in this business that is important. It is have some idea of what you do not know that tends to be the most useful. Knowing how to pressurize the tanks is a fairly basic element, and on a difficulty scale for this endeavor would rate a 1 or a 2 out of 10 (10 being the most difficult step). I'd really recommend taking a step or two back, and gain some more experience with rockets. Start making fairly detailed checklists for your normal rocket launches, get much more detail oriented in your operations. That will start to set the groundwork for what you want to do. Going to school for propulsion would really help as well, as being able to make informed design decisions with calculations backing it will save you a lot of money and possibly even more than that.
 
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You may give a look to Hybrid, it's way less expensive than liquid and demand a little bit more skill than put a Cesaroni in a rocket
 
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You may give a look to Hybrid, it's way less expensive than liquid and demand a little bit more skill than put a Cesaroni in a rocket


Until you start getting to large motors, then hybrids are horrible... So much combustion instability...
 
The caution about petroleum products and LOX reminds me about a fact in the early X-planes program. An X-2 was lost during a strange explosion during a captive inflight test to check the oxygen system. It was discovered the petroleum product treated leather gaskets that were used were made shock sensitive and would explode under the influence of LOX. It was unfortunately learned the hard way back then. Kurt
 
When you start getting into O and larger, they start becoming a much bigger deal.


I was standing on the Flight line at LDRS in Waysde,TX when the O Contrail motor let go. :y: The concussion was similar to a 3"/50 caliber or 5"/38 caliber Naval gun firing. Almost takes your breath away. :shock:
 
I think i havent stated my intention well. Im not going to be fabricating this myself, that would be as you said very time consuming/diffuclt/dangerous. I am designing the engine and the feed system in a CAD environment and then Sending it off the get CNC'd , i got a $200 quote for the engine i have attached below. Its a design i have been working on for a while. I thought id contact you guys as you have a lot of experience in the field, and i need help designing the pressure feed system which i have a general outline for. Thank you very much for your input


Sincerely,


Luka





 
If you can get access to the research section I can see if I can help you there. But I cant do so in the public forum.

Also your attachment didn't show up on your post.
 
If you can get access to the research section I can see if I can help you there. But I cant do so in the public forum.

Also your attachment didn't show up on your post.

How do i do that?
 
Alright guys just a quick update i have attached a preliminary design of my feed system. Let me know what you think, and wether or not it is viable.


Engine Feed System v1.jpg
 
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