Maxi Alpha 3 Cato

OK so, Im thinking it bound up (1/4 lug on 3/16) and at the exact same moment,the built up thrust pushed the motor up to the last CR and block and ripped the rocket from the lugs and rod,then the ejection charge blew and the motor was set back at an alarming speed and ripped the hook out and the motor is somewhere in the field or road cuz I cant find it.

The burned chute is what makes me think the motor was way forward when it blew and the barf did not protect the chute.
And seeing the the motor hook was just about ripped out makes me think the motor was shot backwards from the e-charge.
I didn't notice the lugs were ripped off and were still on the rod till I loaded UnderDog. That really baffles me.?????
oh ya-Motor=-Estes E9-6 or -4?
It was just like---a quick woosh and then BANG! and a sh!t ton of white smoke. No delay. it was QUICK!

HOLD THE PRESS!!!!
I decided to look down the barrel again..with some light...look what I found.
The pen is in the shot cuz I couldnt get the camera to focus.
So,now that yo looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at the
Twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows
And a paragraph on the back of each one bla bla bla

should I get ahold of Estes about this E-plosion?

Classic cracked fuel grain, probably straight through from wall to wall and top to bottom. Broke in half the long way, lots of surface to burn and it would get it done quick. Easier to deal with than an explosion

Scotty Dog said:

should I get ahold of Estes about this E-plosion?

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Yes. They're really good about replacing failed motors. Let them know what damage was done to the rocket. They usually make good on that too. And please file a MESS report at motorcato.org.

So the case was still in the rocket, and the nozzle was blown out? Dave is probably right that the grain was cracked and the whole thing burned in a flash. Is that actually the forward end of the motor in the shot down from the top of the BT? Did the motor get past the forward end of the hook and dislodge the motor block? That takes some force. If the hook and block are torn loose, the motor tube is probably damaged and repairs would be difficult. Let Estes know about the motor and the loss of the rocket. You'll probably get a new motor and new MAIII out of it.

If the motor block is still in place, and the motor tube is still intact, and you can fully remove the hook, then it looks like you might be able to mount a 24mm screw on retainer to the aft end in place of the hook.

Well now, I seem to be in a predicament.

After further and more close inspection of the evidence, it is determined that there was 2 failures.
The motor for sure went boom!
It is believed that the reason the motor ended up at the top of motor tube is this.....

During construction, the wrong part was installed to be used as the engine block.You can see a piece of it (green) in pic.
And for some reason ,there seems to be a hole where the hook goes thru the mmt.

The GREEN (K) adapter ring was used in the place of the (E)engine block ring.
So, here I am, no real harm (except chute) and who's to say if the chute would have cooked if the motor wasn't up the tube ?????


In the end, Im thinking I should at the least file a MESS report.

Oh. I still don't get why the lugs were ripped off?
Also,this was the first flight of this rocket.

I don't think it is possible to accidentally use the K adapter instead of the E motor block. The K piece is big and fits the outside of the MMT. The E piece is smaller and fits inside the MMT. They are both green. If there is a green ring inside the MMT, it is the E ring, which is the right one. I think I see the residue of a ring of glue inside the MMT, so the E ring was probably there before the cato. The K ring should be in a spot you haven't opened up yet --- on top of the forward plastic centering ring.

The forward bend in the motor clip is supposed to go into the motor mount through a small slit. Now it looks like a big hole in that spot. Most likely the Cato tore the clip out and ripped the slit into a large hole. My experience with the MAIII is that the MMT is thin flimsy tubing, and sometimes the clips tear loose from that slit over time. In the future, I'm going to forgoe the clip system and use screw on retainers instead. I'm also considering replacing the motor block with an empty motor casing. That would be a heavy substitute part, but the forward end of the motor tube seems to be really prone to heat damage over time.


I would say there was probable only ONE failure --- the motor. The motor blew, tore the clip loose from the forward slit, made the hole in the MMT, and blew the motor block lose. You probably just never saw the ring after it was blown out.

You sure could accidentally use the adapter as a motor block. But the adapter ring IS ALSO a motor block, just for use with the shorter 24mm motors. While not the ideal build technique, it shouldn't have caused this. I suspect that when the thing let go, it was energetic enough to send the motor up past the block AND rip off the lugs.

Tonimus said:

You sure could accidentally use the adapter as a motor block. But the adapter ring IS ALSO a motor block, just for use with the shorter 24mm motors. While not the ideal build technique, it shouldn't have caused this. I suspect that when the thing let go, it was energetic enough to send the motor up past the block.

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I think you are talking about part O, the spacer for flying D motors in the E mount. Scotty was talking about swapping part K and part E. Those two are both green, but they are different diameters. It would be difficult to mistakenly swap K and E.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

The K ring should be in a spot you haven't opened up yet --- on top of the forward plastic centering ring.

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Well then , I can do some more exploratory surgery. :confused2:

Scotty Dog said:

Well then , I can do some more exploratory surgery. :confused2:

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Hell of a way to spend your birthday (GMT).
Have a happy, Dog.

KennB said:

Hell of a way to spend your birthday (GMT).
Have a happy, Dog.

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Thanks, day early for the Scotty Dog (31st) however today is Kodiac's B-day and he got a new toy and some treats!!!!!!

Scotty Dog said:

Well then , I can do some more exploratory surgery. :confused2:

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The K ring should be in a spot you haven't opened up yet --- on top of the forward plastic centering ring.
YUP!!!! I cut a slot and I sees it.

For some reason I remember the engine block walls being thin. Like it was more like a coupler.????????????????????????
I tried looking up the part #but, no go.

I pulled up the full instructions and took a look. I see the differing rings. I agree with TB, as much as it might pain me to say. It was probably in there before the cato and the force blew out most of it.

Scotty Dog said:

Well then , I can do some more exploratory surgery. :confused2:

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If you want to look for it, it should be on top of the forward plastic CR, glued to the CR with plastic cement, and glued to the motor mount tube with wood glue. if you look at the aft end of the rocket, you can see a green ring with a notch cut out of it for the clip to pass through. That one is glued to the aft plastic CR and to the aft end of the motor mount tube. The forward one is exactly same, except there's no notch.

Scotty Dog said:

Thanks, day early for the Scotty Dog (31st) however today is Kodiac's B-day and he got a new toy and some treats!!!!!!

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Yeah, I know, but the forum runs on GMT so it had you posted as one of the b-day people at 8:00 EDT. When you've had so many, what's a few hours? :wink:
Sounds like Kodiac scored well on his birthday. I can only hope I do so well.

BTW, this last time I donated blood, I did the Double Red with the Red Cross. Pretty cool process and can give some immediate benefits to the recipient down the road.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

If you want to look for it, it should be on top of the forward plastic CR, glued to the CR with plastic cement, and glued to the motor mount tube with wood glue. if you look at the aft end of the rocket, you can see a green ring with a notch cut out of it for the clip to pass through. That one is glued to the aft plastic CR and to the aft end of the motor mount tube. The forward one is exactly same, except there's no notch.

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Its there.
For some reason I remember the engine block ring being thin walled. Like a coupler.
I tried looking up the part #..NOTA.

Tonimus said:

I pulled up the full instructions and took a look. I see the differing rings. I agree with TB, as much as it might pain me to say. It was probably in there before the cato and the force blew out most of it.

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Growing Pains.... :wink:

Well definitely file a M.E.S.S. and contact Estes.

Estes will more than likely send you a replacement kit and alternate D12 motors (hazmat cost make it too costly to replace the E motors). In the past they would send 2 packs of 3 D12s. Let us know what they send now that the D12 come oin 2 packs.


Jerome

Scotty Dog said:

Its there.
For some reason I remember the engine block ring being thin walled. Like a coupler.
I tried looking up the part #..NOTA.

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There's a thin-walled length of tubing that goes over the clip on the outside of the MMT to hold the clip in place, and from your photos, it looks like it is in the right spot.

The motor block is not thin walled. It's the same kind of green heavy cardboard tubing as the rings that fit into the CRs on the outside of the motor mount tube, but it's smaller diameter and fits inside the motor mount tube.

Tonimus said:

I agree with TB, as much as it might pain me to say.

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It's tough on all of us, but I think we'll get through it. :wink:

M.E.S.S. report filed.
Email sent to Estes.

It seems like the rocket was built right, and the motor blew it up. I'd guess the launch lugs were just torn off by shock.

In general, I'd say it looks like you use a lot less glue than I do. My launch lugs are more heavily filleted (but it looks like the paper failed, not the glue). I think my motor blocks are more heavily glued into place. I can usually see some glue around where the rings glue into the CRs. I put epoxy fillets on the fins, otherwise they only attach at the tabs. I'm not saying yours was built wrong, just that I use more glue. In this case it probably would not have made much difference in the outcome, except maybe the motor block would have held.

I like the MAIII and have made many of them in the past year as gifts for other people. But it is sort of a flimsy rocket in some ways. The fins attachment is weak. The motor mount tube is thin. The motor clip often tears loose over time like yours did. The tube coupler is thin and not properly sized for a good joint. But I still like it because it is cheap, easy to build, and a good size LPR/MPR for D or E motors that gives a lot of custom painting and decorating possibilities. I sometimes wish it were more robust, but then you'd have to go up a motor class and sort of defeat one of its best features --- nice affordable flights.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

It seems like the rocket was built right, and the motor blew it up. I'd guess the launch lugs were just torn off by shock.

In general, I'd say it looks like you use a lot less glue than I do. My launch lugs are more heavily filleted (but it looks like the paper failed, not the glue). I think my motor blocks are more heavily glued into place. I can usually see some glue around where the rings glue into the CRs. I put epoxy fillets on the fins, otherwise they only attach at the tabs. I'm not saying yours was built wrong, just that I use more glue. In this case it probably would not have made much difference in the outcome, except maybe the motor block would have held.

.

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All true. Not my best work. I know the fins should be filletted and the lugs could have used some fillets. No excuses here..BUT....this bird was built in a hurry and then stopped and then started..I moved the lugs from where they where glued on once and never filleted them, and I meant to fillet the fins..however, ya da ya da I didnt.
To be honest,after I got this kit..I wasnt impressed with it at all.So,it is my bastard child. ha ha

Hey Scotty, I had the same thing happen a few weeks ago. First flight for the Egg Crate, it went up about twenty feet and that was all she wrote. Ca-pow. Nozzle got blown straight down and put a hole in the blast plate. Motor jammed in the baffle. The 'Crate fell and burned the bottom of the fin can up (paint fire, burned the tube up in between three of the fins). The rocket won't fly again. E9-6.

foamy said:

Hey Scotty, I had the same thing happen a few weeks ago. First flight for the Egg Crate, it went up about twenty feet and that was all she wrote. Ca-pow. Nozzle got blown straight down and put a hole in the blast plate. Motor jammed in the baffle. The 'Crate fell and burned the bottom of the fin can up (paint fire, burned the tube up in between three of the fins). The rocket won't fly again. E9-6.

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Bummer. This was me first CATO. I'm glad it didn't happen in one of me scratchers.

Estes got back at me and asked for pictures of the rocket and the E9 motor with #s showing.
Not sure if they will say the rocket is a total lose or not.
Anywhoo- I sent the pics and we will see what comes of it.

The 24" Dynastar chute getting burned up is what burns me.
You cant find them these days.

The E9-4 lot number 06 28 11 is one of the bad lot numbers. There is a lot of history on TRF about E9's and E12's. For example see the following post:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?62604-Anatomy-of-an-E9-CATO&highlight=E9-4+cato

aerostadt said:

The E9-4 lot number 06 28 11 is one of the bad lot numbers. There is a lot of history on TRF about E9's and E12's. For example see the following post:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?62604-Anatomy-of-an-E9-CATO&highlight=E9-4+cato

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Thank you for pointing that out and posting the info.
Ill go thru my stash.
Anywhoo----I think I was dooooooomed from the start....https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?44222-Maxi-Alpha-3-issue&highlight=Maxi