Managing trackers

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mpitfield

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Last year at URRF there was a board that, if you were aware of, you could check for conflicts for the frequency/channels of your tracker/s. I know this procedure had mixed results due to one of my club members checking his tracker before he loaded it into his rocket. In his case there was another flier using the same channel but this was not listed on the board.

Because worst case this could result in the inability to track down and recover your rocket I would like to know what the procedure will be to manage this for LDRS?

One issue I noticed at URRF was that some people were not aware of the board or the protocol. A procedure that could be part of the overall solution would be to have more announcements during the day. Another issue I noted was that the data on the board wasn't necessarily accurate. Some fliers had finished flying for the day or even the launch. Possibly having a protocal where the fliers for the day or ideally just before their launch list their frequencies on the board, then once they are done they remove them.

I know this may not be realistic but the topic and potential protocols warrants a discussion.
 
We have a ham on our committee that is working to make a basic FAQ that we will stuff into the flyer packet and a dry erase board at the Safety check tent, hopefully people will pay attention.
 
Easy, make it mandatory that the tracker folks turn in their frequencies and settings and have it out in the open for all to see. Kurt

Oh don't we all wish it was that easy.... Let's face it, The Federal Govt has a LAW that says you need a Federal license to use these things. 9 out of 10 guys who are using them don't even know what that means!

All we can do is create a make sense document, give people the tools and promote them to be considerate of each other!
 
Oh don't we all wish it was that easy.... Let's face it, The Federal Govt has a LAW that says you need a Federal license to use these things. 9 out of 10 guys who are using them don't even know what that means!

All we can do is create a make sense document, give people the tools and promote them to be considerate of each other!

I have trackers that do not require any certification and some that do, however our club has at least 4 HAM members and I may be HAM licensed by the time LDRS rolls around as well.

Governing body regulations aside, the main issue I find is that people are unaware that they need to let someone know that they are using a tracker. That aside, it seems that once you list yourself on the board or notify whomever then there is no followup. This does not seem practical for today's launches because tracking technology is very approachable for most HPR fliers and becoming more common. So the chances for conflicts is greater than ever.

In my opinion, in an ideal world (yes I know the realities of it), fliers should be listing their frequencies or following whatever protocol is put in place when they need to, but not before or beyond. So list it on the board just before you are prepping your rocket for launch then if you successfully retrieve your rocket and not using the device again immediately then pull it off the board. This seems to be the most fair and practical solution, maybe not realistic but that doesn't mean it should be implemented along with reminders as part of the repetitive announcements during the day. You could even write out a succinct track and record it, then play it at the discretion of the LCO during the day.

Eventually everyone will get tired of hearing it, but get the message.
 
Again, It's not that hard especially at a major event. The HAM folks will be happy to post their frequencies and callsigns. The 200Mhz trackers let's face it, the sellers of this stuff say no license required and a lot of people use it for rocket tracking. If it were such a big deal the Federal Cookie Commission would have cracked down on it a long time ago. Soooooo, those folks needn't fear anything. The whole idea is to prevent two folks on the same frequency and parameters because it will confuse both.
The 900 Mhz ISM stuff most definitely doesn't require a license but again, it's just a courtesy to make certain two devices are not on the same frequency at the same time, period. This is not like R/C where in the old days something would crash if frequency controll wasn't practiced. Kurt
 
I don't claim to anything about HAM other than a lot of the stuff needs a license and a lot of it is being sold with claims otherwise. This hobby cant be the FCC Police.....
So we are in agreement, we make a create a make sense document, give people the tools and promote them to be considerate of each other!
 
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RSO's are mostly smart. We know what's gonna be popping tracking altitude... and should be asking whats inside anyways. Just make sure they're pointing people over to the board with a friendly reminder.
 
As Bill said we will have a white board that folks can fill in their frequencies at RSO. We are not assigning frequencies. That would not work out at a launch the size of LDRS.

I can reprogram BRB tracker frequencies on the spot (assuming I am not tied up with range duties (Range Boss primarily)).

The biggest issue I see is that folks will need to remember to go to the RSO table and delete their frequency entry on the white board after their rocket is recovered. If they forget another flier may need to reprogram unnecessarily/delay his/her flight...
 
Just make sure they're pointing people over to the board with a friendly reminder.

The biggest issue I see is that folks will need to remember to go to the RSO table and delete their frequency entry on the white board after their rocket is recovered. If they forget another flier may need to reprogram unnecessarily/delay his/her flight...

I see these two points key to keeping things going smoothly.
 
So we are in agreement, we make a create a make sense document, give people the tools and promote them to be considerate of each other!
 
(The following is from someone with exactly 0 experience using trackers, and ill probably be using one for the 3rd time at LDRS)

I agree that a "make sense" document is a good idea, but I think that the white board is also a good idea. Everyone flying with a tracker writes their name and frequency on the board, and it is erased when they're done. I'll be using a BRB RF transmitter, which can have any frequency in the 420-450 MHz range, so I figure I'll pick a frequency the week before, program it in, and stick with that for the week. It can be reprogrammed, but for everyone using one of these (maybe a lot of them there) it seems like it would be an unnecessary pain to pull the rocket apart, hook it up to a PC, and reprogram it because someone else is on that frequency. If everyone knows what frequencies are in use at a given time, it should greatly reduce interference. I understand that at a large launch this might be impractical, but it seems like a pretty important issue to me. I don't care what frequency I use, so long as nobody else interferes with it!

Just my $.02

Nate
 
I'll post a spreadsheet with a list of the 440 frequencies available in the FL area that should not encounter interference from other 440 transmissions, as soon as I get a chance. That may help folks on deciding what frequencies they may wish to choose from ahead of time. The list is based on the ARRL band plan, and takes into account other simplex transmissions in the region. One example would be simplex frequencies used in linking repeaters, which may vary geographically based on the local repeater council.
Bottom line we need to keep this simple, as Bill stated, which is why it will be up to the fliers to list their flight and frequency on the white board at the RSO table just before their flight, and remove it immediately after recovery, because I can guarantee folks that the frequencies will be shared by more than one or two fliers!
Greg
 
Here is a list of useable 440 Mhz amateur frequencies in Potter: (sorry, having trouble editing the list down to 3 columns with this ipad! :facepalm:)
*avoid 432.1: calling freq
432.15
432.2
432.25
*avoid 432.3 - 432.4: propagation beacons
432.45
434.15
432.5
434.2
432.55
434.25
432.6
434.3
432.65
434.35
432.7
434.4
432.75
434.45
432.8
434.5
432.85
434.55
432.9
434.6
432.95
434.65
433
434.7
433.05
434.75
433.1
434.8
433.15
434.85
433.2
434.9
433.25
434.95
433.3
433.35
433.4
433.45
433.5
433.55
433.6
433.65
433.7
433.75
433.8
433.85
433.9
433.95
434
434.05
434.1
 
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because I can guarantee folks that the frequencies will be shared by more than one or two fliers!

Surely. More than once I've seen people come back after tracking a signal for 2 hours only to find it wasn't their rocket.

Stupid rookie question- I know the 900 Mhz stuff has sub frequencies..... any risk of crossover or are they unique enough to not have issues? (specifically a BRB900)
 
Tracking noobie here with a question or two

Is there any reason not to use frequencies below the 432.15 or above 434.95? The brb goes from 420 to 450. Also, any reason to use one frequency over another?

Nate
 
Tracking noobie here with a question or two

Is there any reason not to use frequencies below the 432.15 or above 434.95? The brb goes from 420 to 450. Also, any reason to use one frequency over another?

Nate

432.100 MHz is the national weak signal calling frequency. 432.000 MHz to to 432.100 MHz is used by the moonbounce community. Common courtesy to other users of the band would preclude the use of frequencies below 432.150 MHz.
 
432.100 MHz is the national weak signal calling frequency. 432.000 MHz to to 432.100 MHz is used by the moonbounce community. Common courtesy to other users of the band would preclude the use of frequencies below 432.150 MHz.

Ummmm, due to the relatively short duration of a rocket flight and the low power, would not likely interfere too much with anyone else. Even a 12mW Beeline in a tree isn't likely to be that much of a problem out where the major launches occur. Kurt
 
I plan on using 423.55 MHz with a Big Red Bee. If that's a problem let me know.
 
I plan on using 423.55 MHz with a Big Red Bee. If that's a problem let me know.
You can not transmit there. Potter, NY is North of the Line A so no transmission is allowed in the 420-430 MHz segment of the 70 cm band by international treaty. The rules are below.
(m) In the 70 cm band:
(1) No amateur station shall transmit from north of Line A in the 420-430 MHz segment. See §97.3(a) for the definition of Line A.
(2) Amateur stations transmitting in the 420-430 MHz segment must not cause harmful interference to, and must accept interference from, stations authorized by the FCC in the land mobile service within 80.5 km of Buffalo, Cleveland, and Detroit. See §2.106, footnote US230 for specific frequencies and coordinates.
(3) Amateur stations transmitting in the 420-430 MHz segment or the 440-450 MHz segment must not cause harmful interference to, and must accept interference from, stations authorized by other nations in the fixed and mobile except aeronautical mobile services.

(30) Line A. Begins at Aberdeen, WA, running by great circle arc to the intersection of 48° N, 120° W, thence along parallel 48° N, to the intersection of 95° W, thence by great circle arc through the southernmost point of Duluth, MN, thence by great circle arc to 45° N, 85° W, thence southward along meridian 85° W, to its intersection with parallel 41° N, thence along parallel 41° N, to its intersection with meridian 82° W, thence by great circle arc through the southernmost point of Bangor, ME, thence by great circle arc through the southernmost point of Searsport, ME, at which point it terminates.

Bob
 
I've been using 434.925 with my Bee. Not sure if this info is helpful to anyone, just figured I'd put it out there.

Nate
 
Sure glad i don't understand this stuff my tracker is channel 231 :)

That is why i enslaved Greg and Bob hahahahhahahaha
 
Maybe an additional page on the LDRS page could feature tracker information.... Including open/occupied channels. And maybe a small box that reflects a request for frequencies. Yeah, that could be a long term task/activity for someone... Or post a phone number (maybe someone can get a prepaid/disposable phone for the duration of the launch) where people can call and request frequencies instead of coming up the RSO tent... Can be a VERY LONG walk for some only to find out that their frequency is clear...

Just some thoughts.

Walsh
 
All of this sounds great on paper...... over the years at too many events to recall, it doesn't work!

It may help some, but there are always those that don't pay any attention or just don't care.

I now carry 4 trackers with me in hopes of finding an un-used channel. [talking falcon trackers here & there a whole load of them being flown]

I have spent 2 hours on the hunt,only to find someone else's rocket on the same freq........ many times!

Put notices about the board in registration package....fliers...meeting...announcements....web-sites, etc.

I have not yet been to a large event, where there weren't several cross channel problems. It just happens when there are so many out there.
I find the biggest problem is fliers not shutting them off when done...THAT'S the real pain in the butt.

Hey more power to all these ideas....hopefully you may get them to work someday.
 
Not sure if anyone will know this, but what are the actual frequencies of the popular trackers with "channels" (walston, etc.)? I was just thinking that those (like myself) with programmable trackers would be able to avoid known "cluttered" frequencies or frequency sections.

Nate
 
My biggest fear is not finding an available frequency/channel, it is finding it, launching my rocket, begin tracking and then someone else hops on the same line.

As I mentioned in the opening post, this is exactly what happened to a fellow club member last URRF. However being realistic, like Jim H said some people don't pay attention or care so the problem will likely show up.

My hope is that, along with the usual things discussed here, that there are more announcements during the day to remind everyone to stay off the channel/frequency if it's still listed on the board. Also if you're finished flying and have recovered your rocket, then the first thing you should do, before you go back to your parking spot, is visit the board and remove your tracker so someone else can use it...even if you are going to launch again, we need to take turns.
 
We will have folks indicate their frequencies on a white board at safety immediately before their launch. No one is going to be assigned frequencies as that wouldn't work for a host of logistical reasons.
After your rocket is prepped, before carrying it to safety check, I would suggest checking the board to see what frequencies are in use by those currently flying.
We will remind fliers that after recovery they need to turn off their trackers and let folks at the white board know the frequency is now clear. Folks on occasion forget to turn the trackers off which can lead to some interesting results. ��
It depends on your fellow fliers co-operating and remembering to let folks know when the frequency is available, so yes it is certainly not fool proof, but it is better than nothing.
If folks have any better ideas, we would be happy to entertain them. We fully expect there will be some issues, as withover 300 fliers I can guarantee there will a lot of duplication, so folks co-operation is critical to making this work. It is beyond the control of us on the committee....
 
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