Any tricks to getting a buried rocket out of the ground?

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soopirV

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Today I had a bad day so that others may fly well by losing my adventurer 3 to a failed deployment. ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1427583992.751756.jpg
I guess I didn't technically LOSE it, I found it, but it looked different:
ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1427584026.572941.jpg
That's 5.5 feet buried in the desert earth. I retrieved the club shovel and dug a 30" hole and managed to free the booster (perfect condition!) and av bay with my egg timer (flight was motor eject only- think my friction tape slipped). The damn timer was still beeping as I dug, felt like the guy in Tell Tale Heart.
I could not get the payload bay and nose cone:
ImageUploadedByRocketry Forum1427584170.093955.jpg
They appear to be intact, just miserably stuck. Aside from a backhoe or a team of laborers, does anyone have any suggestions? A few people proposed wetting the dirt, I didn't have enough water for that, but will go back to try any suggestions!
 
Sometimes in Iraq we would have to lay wire for land line comms and such. It required a Pick-Ax and some good ol' fashion work.
I'de say use a Pick-Ax and save the water for drinking. You'll need to stay hydrated.
 
You're lucky it didn't land on pavement.
Is there anyone with a winch and off-road vehicle around?


JD
 
I had the same happen to my L1 attempt in a corn field. Spent several hours digging to get the booster and av-bay out, had to quit at nightfall and fill the hole for so the night launchers didn't fall in. Next morning I paid a younger and more in shape 20-something to dig the rest out. After a few more hours I had the entire rocket completely undamaged.
 
The trick for getting rockets out of the ground is not to let them grow so big before harvesting them.
When they get their roots that deep you’re going to have problems every time.

Now personally I’d be too embarrassed to post pictures such as these and to be asking this question.

Having been asked I’d use a posthole digger
5GVA1_AS01
and work around the rocket a bit at a time.
 
That desert soil is akin to concrete. I don't think a post hole digger will make a dent, let alone work as it is supposed to.
A Jackhammer would be Ideal.
 
I grew up about 15 miles from Lucerne in Apple Valley. The dirt in the south west desert areas is actually caliche clay. It's about like digging in concrete. I have a 6' long digging bar that my grandfather used for digging holes for fence posts and sprinklers. It weighs about 15lbs and has a chisel tip. You need to chip out the area with the bar and then use your shovel to scoop out the loose dirt.

pACE-954561dt.jpg

https://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1274440&KPID=954561&kpid=954561&pla=pla_954561
 
Last edited:
I grew up about 15 miles from Lucerne in Apple Valley. The dirt in the south west desert areas is actually caliche clay. It's about like digging in concrete. I have a 6' long digging bar that my grandfather used for digging holes for fence posts and sprinklers. It weighs about 15lbs and has a chisel tip. You need to chip out the area with the bar and then use your shovel to scoop out the loose dirt.

View attachment 259660

https://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1274440&KPID=954561&kpid=954561&pla=pla_954561

That's exactly what I need to get into the concrete, I mean "soil" in my yard...heading out to ACE in about 15 minutes...
 
A cordlass hammerdrill and a 24" long X 1/2" or bigger carbide bit.......
The drill will sink the bit with ease....
Sink it and pull it out many times......
Then dig,,,,,
it'll dig quite easily then............


Please,,, please,,,, damhikt..........


Teddy
 
View attachment 259341
They appear to be intact, just miserably stuck. Aside from a backhoe or a team of laborers, does anyone have any suggestions? A few people proposed wetting the dirt, I didn't have enough water for that, but will go back to try any suggestions![/QUOTE]

Kinda puts the rocket - eating tree problem into perspective...
 
A large man and give him the okay to pull that bad boy out of there.
 
The trick for getting rockets out of the ground is not to let them grow so big before harvesting them.
When they get their roots that deep you’re going to have problems every time.

Now personally I’d be too embarrassed to post pictures such as these and to be asking this question.

Having been asked I’d use a posthole digger
5GVA1_AS01
and work around the rocket a bit at a time.

I enjoyed your joke about not letting them get too big before harvest, but I gotta admit, the part about how you'd be too embarrassed to post pictures or ask questions like this (implying to me that perhaps I should be as well) got me a bit torqued. My first response was, "Well, I'm glad my desire to learn from others is stronger than my ego, unlike your own", but realized that would be childish (sorry, I still said it, because...well, reasons), and yet in reality your answer is (perhaps unintentionally) the most helpful. Even if I were to try to NOT ascribe intent (maybe you really ARE too embarrassed to admit failure, and hate learning from others), I still wish to highlight the learning potential my situation provides for people in similar scenarios.

I'm not a physicist, but I welcome the insight of any (amateur or otherwise) that care to weigh in, but first, some facts: My EggTimer seems to have survived (it's behaving like it should when fed battery power after recovering from the crash site), and provided an altitude of 2230 feet, with a maximum return velocity of 131 m/s (sorry for the mixed units, it's how my brain works). Kinetic energy is calculated by KE=1/2mV^2, so my 10lb (4.53 kg) rocket dissipated nearly 39kJ upon impact. This impact was stretched over almost 2m, so it's about 34Gs. This is mentioned as a note of how durable a properly mounted EggTimer can be (the fact that it's still working). I would love to have similar data for the EggFinder, but as I said earlier, it's not yet retrieved.

Moving on: The reason the rocket cannot be simply plucked from the ground is that no earth was removed to make room for the rocket- the soil was compressed laterally by the rocket as it entered at high speed. This means that that 39kJ of energy is potential again, and is stored in compression against the circumferential length of my embedded parts. I've already released about 42% of it by digging out 30" of tube and removing the booster and av bay, leaving 16.4KJ of energy remaining compressed on the payload tube and nose cone. Removing the rest the way I have is not as easy!

When digging earth like this, a conical area must be removed, with roughly a 45 degree wall angle (it's crumbly, and readily collapses in on itself, plus the shovel angle increases with each stroke). Given the volume of a right cone is equal to pi*r^2*h/3, I had to remove nearly 6 cubic feet of dirt (36" circle, 30" depth) to free the booster. To continue on in this fashion (to the depth of the nose cone), I would have to remove almost 44 cubic feet of dirt. For the Anglophiles, that's more than 1.6 cubic yards of dirt. With caliche at an estimated 90 lbs per cubic foot, I would have to excavate almost 4000lbs of dirt, requiring a hole with a diameter of 5.5'.

Here are some reality checks though- I was able to dig the first 30" in about an hour- so the dirt I'm dealing with is not as dense or problematic as true caliche. Even so, Digging a 6'x6' hole in the desert is not my idea of a fun time...and this is where you, kind sir (AKA boomtube_mk2), come in: I need not dig out the entire volume, I just need to relieve the remaining 16.4kJ of potential energy. By way of analogy, I'll explain how this will work:

You, Boomtube_mk2 must never have broken a limb by dint of your perfect approach to all things physical, or, if your ego is as fragile as you claim, you hid it from those that could help. Regardless, I'm sure you saw a picture of a limb in a cast at some point. If not, I'll assume you have, and move on. The cast is a rigid body surrounding another, and is intended to provide extracorporeal support to a healing bone. My rocket is the bone, supported by the "cast" that is the earth surrounding (and exerting that 16.4kJ of energy to the surface). When you (or your friend, or the person on TV who was your friend and HAD a cast) had the cast removed, the doctor didn't try to grind the cast away completely, little by little; that would've worked, but would've been a waste of energy and time. Instead, the wise person used a narrow reciprocating blade (so as not to injure the underlying flesh) and sliced the cast lengthwise with a narrow kerf. The majority of the cast remained in place, but the stored energy of the unit has been compromised to the point that simple finger pressure can split the otherwise impenetrable restraint of the form.
Your mention of using a post hold digger triggered the analogy for me, and should solve both problems- with such a device, I will not have to dig a right cone in the earth to reach the needed depth, nor will I have to dig a complete circumference around the restrained tube- I can use the post hold digger's "kerf" to relieve the accumulated pressure, assuming I can dig a parallel and contacting hole adjacent to the payload. Even if it's incomplete, working on a roughly 6x6 hole is far favorable than digging a 70" diameter hole. At a certain depth, that 16.4kJ force will be mitigated enough that a pull sideways will release the force on the rest of the body.

So, Boomtube-mk2- I'm curious what mk1 was- maybe it wasn't so bad, and there were others here that could help you the way you've helped me?
 
In reading my reply I realize that good ole Siri elected to correct each "post hole" instance to "post hold". I apologize for any confusion.
 
Highlift 4x4 jack and some wood.

Put some wood down as a support for your jack as close as possible to the rocket.

Attach the shock cord to the jack and slowly raise the jack, you'll need someone to hold the jack upright.

The trick is to pull it exactly out in the opposite direction it went in. If you pull it out only a bit sideways it will take 100x force to get it out.
 
I hate to admit it but Teddy gets the prize here. Go rent a hammerdrill and punch a ring of 1/2" - 1" holes around the rocket. Eventually the rocket will be freed and it will be a metric boat load less work than trying to dig it out by hand.

A cordlass hammerdrill and a 24" long X 1/2" or bigger carbide bit.......
The drill will sink the bit with ease....
Sink it and pull it out many times......
Then dig,,,,,
it'll dig quite easily then............


Please,,, please,,,, damhikt..........


Teddy
 
I hate to admit it but Teddy gets the prize here. Go rent a hammerdrill and punch a ring of 1/2" - 1" holes around the rocket. Eventually the rocket will be freed and it will be a metric boat load less work than trying to dig it out by hand.

I wasn't kidding with this Chris...
And it's not a maybe or an if....
No need to rent...
A Dewalt 18V. 1/2" Cordless Hammerdrill ( and it doesn't HAVE to be a hammerdrill ),,
and the longest and widest bit you can buy at your local home center...
Just a regular straight shank carbide bit....
It'll sink through that hardpack like butter,,
after all,, it's meant to bore through concrete...
It'll take 3 minutes to bore a dozen 2 ft deep holes all around the rocket.....
Then the rocket will pull out with one hand without even straining......

Teddy
 
I'm not a physicist, but I welcome the insight of any (amateur or otherwise) that care to weigh in, but first, some facts: My EggTimer seems to have survived (it's behaving like it should when fed battery power after recovering from the crash site), and provided an altitude of 2230 feet, with a maximum return velocity of 131 m/s (sorry for the mixed units, it's how my brain works). Kinetic energy is calculated by KE=1/2mV^2, so my 10lb (4.53 kg) rocket dissipated nearly 39kJ upon impact. This impact was stretched over almost 2m, so it's about 34Gs. This is mentioned as a note of how durable a properly mounted EggTimer can be (the fact that it's still working). I would love to have similar data for the EggFinder, but as I said earlier, it's not yet retrieved.

Moving on: The reason the rocket cannot be simply plucked from the ground is that no earth was removed to make room for the rocket- the soil was compressed laterally by the rocket as it entered at high speed. This means that that 39kJ of energy is potential again, and is stored in compression against the circumferential length of my embedded parts. I've already released about 42% of it by digging out 30" of tube and removing the booster and av bay, leaving 16.4KJ of energy remaining compressed on the payload tube and nose cone. Removing the rest the way I have is not as easy!

Did you subtract the portion of the kinetic energy that would have been converted into heat energy as the friction of the cone entering the dirt? Both the dirt and the cone would have been heated by the impact and then that heat energy would have been dissipated.
 
Not sure it applies here...
But if you try to pull out a 8 foot long copper grounding rod, you can't. Even with the hydraulic lift from a tractor. Yes, I've tried. But put a pipe wrench on it and twist it, it will come right out (basiclly un-threading it like a nut on a bolt.) Yes, it did.

I'd try the post hole digger with a baricade/dam to hold back the dirt and the drill.
 
It seems there are a lot of different approaches but the post #15 you seem to have the approach down to a science. I hope you recover your rocket safely and undamaged. Please be careful! And when you do get it out of the earth post a few pictures. Good luck!
 
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