New PS II rocket - Scion

Just noticed on the estes website today that there is a new PS II rocket, the Scion. The description is "Brand new and just added to the Pro Series II collection is the Scion. A web exclusive, this is the only place you will this find rocket. Standing over 50 inches tall, the Scion comes with the quick release motor retention system just as the other Pro Series do. (Motor Retainer Set - also sold separately). Though massive looking, the construction of this kit is not difficult. Building and finish work can easily be accomplished over a few days."

Here is the link: https://www.estesrockets.com/new/009712-pro-series-iitm-sciontm

It kinda looks like an extended Leviathan with the fins on backwards, cool though... I am a little surprised about the BP engine recommendation though.

Looks awesome. Finally a kit that is able to fly the F15 and stay at fairly low altitudes. I hope it can be modified to take composites though, this would fly great on the CTI H54 or H42.

EXPjawa, I kind of agree the F15 may be a bit marginal in this rocket.

$30 is a pretty great price for this, I may have to get 1 or 2… Maybe build one stock for flying at Moffett where there's a 1000 foot ceiling and concrete to land on, and build another with the fins (those looks exactly like Leviathan fins) flipped for HPR.

Out of stock already!?!?

Jumpjet has stated in several threads that he has successfully flown all of the PSII builders kits except the MDRM on Estes 29mm BP motors. You'll have to ask him for specifics. I'd be surprised if you couldn't pop in a nice G80 or baby H without any mods if you wanted to. Like the pictures of the Scion.

75Grandville said:

Out of stock already!?!?

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Dang! I was about to jump on that myself...

Instructions haven't been posted yet either.

How long before Toyota comes a knocking??


JD

JDcluster said:

How long before Toyota comes a knocking??


JD

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Hah! Yeah, but a scion is also a rich kid.

samb said:

Jumpjet has stated in several threads that he has successfully flown all of the PSII builders kits except the MDRM on Estes 29mm BP motors. You'll have to ask him for specifics. I'd be surprised if you couldn't pop in a nice G80 or baby H without any mods if you wanted to. Like the pictures of the Scion.

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Looks like at that estimated weight and a regular build, an F-15 would do fine. I wish they would have gone a little lighter to meet the "California" definition of a "Model Rocket" (500 grams or less max lift-off). This limits me to the HPR launches...

Although many folks have launched or witnessed other PSII builder kits with Estes BP 29mm motors, they all (except this new Sclon) exceed the max lift-off weight recommended by Estes and therefore would be a violation of the safety code.

Safety first!
Fun always!


Jerome

JeromeK99 said:

Looks like at that estimated weight and a regular build, an F-15 would do fine. I wish they would have gone a little lighter to meet the "California" definition of a "Model Rocket" (500 grams or less max lift-off). This limits me to the HPR launches...

Although many folks have launched or witnessed other PSII builder kits with Estes BP 29mm motors, they all (except this new Sclon) exceed the max lift-off weight recommended by Estes and therefore would be a violation of the safety code.

Safety first!
Fun always!


Jerome

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Agreed, although I think it's considered okay to fly a rocket above the max liftoff weight of the motor provided it still has a thrust to weight ratio above the minimum 3:1. Any wind with this rocket and motor could be a bit scary, though. If I get one I'll definitely try the H42 and maybe the H53 Mellow as those should be perfect for a light, large rocket like this.

Edit: I have a feeling this will probably separate at the nosecone built stock. It would make sense to add a bulk plate if it didn't add too much weight, to turn the front section into a payload/altimeter bay.

I wonder how it can be longer than a Leviathan (even with fins flipped) but also lighter? Is it a different lighter-weight body tube? Maybe cardboard centering rings? Hmmmm...

One of these days, I'm going to fly my Leviathan on a BP motor. It core sampled a couple weeks ago, so I'm cutting 6 inches off it. Maybe now is the time.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I wonder how it can be longer than a Leviathan (even with fins flipped) but also lighter? Is it a different lighter-weight body tube? Maybe cardboard centering rings? Hmmmm...

One of these days, I'm going to fly my Leviathan on a BP motor. It core sampled a couple weeks ago, so I'm cutting 6 inches off it. Maybe now is the time.

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It doesn't say it has TTW fins. I suspect one less centering ring, no fin tabs, and one less fin makes up that difference.

Tonimus said:

It doesn't say it has TTW fins. I suspect one less centering ring, no fin tabs, and one less fin makes up that difference.

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I don't know, it looks like the fins are exactly the same as the Leviathan…
This is 16.5 oz. Estes says the Leviathan is 17.5 oz, so it's possible they didn't get rid of TTW… Maybe 2 CR's with TTW?

Nice design. Look forward to building one.

At that price, I would definitely try it out.

My thought on building a large 3" rocket for the E16 and F15 has been that you could do the fin can more like a Big Daddy, with cardboard CRs and balsa or other lightweight fins. Just change the motor mount tube to 29mm and add the retainer. Include an upper section of BT more like a Leviathan. The lighter materials might put the weight into a range the BP motors could handle. They might be too lightweight for a high-thrust composite motor but could hanle the low thrust BP motors, just like the Big Daddy handles the E12 (or E20, or more).

A Mega Mosquito flies fine on the 29 mm BP motors. Just enlarge the holes in the CR's for a 29 mm mount and trim the fin tabs.

Looks cool, attractive price, I like it. As for the 500 gram limit, there is currently a bill being formed to change the old antiquated CSFM rule for this. Maybe Fred will chime in with more details, but hopefully soon this will not be an issue.

I flew my Leviathan on a Estes F15, it was a weird flight.
It took off slowly and went straight up no weather cocking.
At apogee it just fell over on to it's side and fell that way for about 2 seconds.
The ejection charge fired at what I would estimate to be 100 feet the chute opened and it recovered safely.
I estimate the apogee could not have been much more than 500 feet, and the side ways free-fall was slow.
I had never seen this before it was just weird.

jazzviper1 said:

I flew my Leviathan on a Estes F15, it was a weird flight.
It took off slowly and went straight up no weather cocking.
At apogee it just fell over on to it's side and fell that way for about 2 seconds.
The ejection charge fired at what I would estimate to be 100 feet the chute opened and it recovered safely.
I estimate the apogee could not have been much more than 500 feet, and the side ways free-fall was slow.
I had never seen this before it was just weird.

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That does sound weird. I wonder what it's max speed was. Once I cut off the crunched part of my Leviathan's body tube and do a few other mods, I'll weigh it again and do some sims. It must be odd to see a 3-second burn that only goes 500 feet.

I have yet to purchase any of the Estes Pro-Series.
The “Scion” looks to be the one that will change that for me.

If it flies on the Estes BP “F” motor then it already has a 29mm motor tube; correct?
This would mean that Estes has now produced a 29mm screw-on type retainer something they didn’t have until now.

Or am I missing something here?

boomtube-mk2 said:

I have yet to purchase any of the Estes Pro-Series.
The “Scion” looks to be the one that will change that for me.

If it flies on the Estes BP “F” motor then it already has a 29mm motor tube; correct?
This would mean that Estes has now produced a 29mm screw-on type retainer something they didn’t have until now.

Or am I missing something here?

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I think all the Pro-Series are 29mm. I've flown my Leviathan and Argent several times on 29mm F's and G's and they fly great. The builder kits except for the Scion fly mainly on composites (F15 is a bit too weak unless winds are really clam), the E2X kits can fly BP and composites.

Or am I missing something here?

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Estes introduced the 29 mm plastic screw on retainer with the introduction of the first Pro Series II kits. Like I've stated in the past the first four Pro Series II builder kits can be flown on the Estes BP motors, that's why they contain the optional green motor block. I prefer to use only the F15-4 since the models only go about 500 feet up, expect only about 300 feet with the E16-4. I've also flown the F15-4 on my 3" Dia. Honest John with the model weighing around 22 ounces without motor. Calm wind is always a good thing when flying with 29 mm BP motors. To me they fly just like a Big Bertha on a B6 motor, low and slow.


John Boren

boomtube-mk2 said:

I have yet to purchase any of the Estes Pro-Series.
The “Scion” looks to be the one that will change that for me.

If it flies on the Estes BP “F” motor then it already has a 29mm motor tube; correct?
This would mean that Estes has now produced a 29mm screw-on type retainer something they didn’t have until now.

Or am I missing something here?

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The 29mm screw-on retainer has been around a couple years now. They also have a 24mm screw-on retainer. They work great and are a lot less expensive than aluminum.

JumpJet said:

Estes introduced the 29 mm plastic screw on retainer with the introduction of the first Pro Series II kits. Like I've stated in the past the first four Pro Series II builder kits can be flown on the Estes BP motors, that's why they contain the optional green motor block. I prefer to use only the F15-4 since the models only go about 500 feet up, expect only about 300 feet with the E16-4. I've also flown the F15-4 on my 3" Dia. Honest John with the model weighing around 22 ounces without motor. Calm wind is always a good thing when flying with 29 mm BP motors. To me they fly just like a Big Bertha on a B6 motor, low and slow.


John Boren

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John, can you tell us how the lightness of this rocket was achieved? It sounds bigger than the Leviathan but lighter. Are the materials lighter? It looks like a great deal at this price.

It has one less fin than the Leviathan.

@JumpJet Do you have the instructions or the painting instructions? I couldn't find them on the website.

IINM, it looks like it would be made from two of the standard Estes Pro Series II 3" body tubes (21.5" long each) and the Leviathan's nosecone. I wonder if we'll see a 3 slot version of the body tube available on Estes' website for purchase soon. I wish Estes would make the Pro Series motor mounts (esp. centering rings) available for "Can also be used in designing your own rocket!" purposes.

Presuming I'm correct, the length given is 1/2" off (or my measurements of the Leviathan's nosecone is off by that much).

Has anyone managed to score one yet?

The finished weight is based on the one I built for test flying. Maybe I build light.


John Boren

Write letters now. Do not wait. Bill is introduced with one paragraph revised and will be amended to revise the second paragraph covering the motors. The reason is that it is easier to get it moving with just the first paragraph revised.

https://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_467&sess=CUR&house=B&author=chang_<chang>

Hearing date is April 8. The legislative analyst working this requested folks from that part of CA (Central to "Bay area") for the hearing. I will check to see if he has enough people to speak, otherwise I might have to make a trip...

Tip Sheet attached.

kelltym88 said:

Looks cool, attractive price, I like it. As for the 500 gram limit, there is currently a bill being formed to change the old antiquated CSFM rule for this. Maybe Fred will chime in with more details, but hopefully soon this will not be an issue.

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View attachment Model Rocket_ Fact Sheet.pdf

View attachment CA ModRoc Law_letter-writing.docx

Here is a form letter.

View attachment AB 467 Support Letter.docx

Here are the proposed amendments to be incorporated later. Wording is still subject to change.

If and when this passes, this is the "Law" and it over-rides any conflicts in the state fire regulations. There would only be one small conflict and that is because the regulations list a specific older version (year) of the NFPA 1122 code.


HSC Section 12519:



&#8220;Model rocket&#8221; means any toy or educational device which weighs not more than 1500 grams, including the engine and any payload, that is propelled by model rocket engines and shall conform to the definition of the National Fire Protection Association (N.F.P.A.) 1122, Code for Model Rocketry.



HSC Section 12520:



"Model rocket engine" means a rocket propulsion device using commercially manufactured solid propellant that does not require mixing by the user and shall conform to the definition of &#8220;model rocket motor&#8221; of the National Fire Protection Association (N.F.P.A.) 1125, Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket Motors.