Why should I join Tripoli or NAR?

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

CKurtz15

Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Hello
I got into rocketry a few years ago and have built an array of rockets. However, the past few years, I submerged myself into the world of experimental rocketry. Since then I have built sugar motors ranging from F to K. I am an independent free agent. I fly alone and file my own FAA flight permits.

I do not hold any Level 1, Level 2, or Level 3 certifications; however, I have flown sugar rockets that reached Level 2 altitude. The problem is my rockets use PVC engine casings, which are banned in both Tripoli and NAR. If I joined these organizations, I would most certainly be forced to stop my research.
I would also be forced to fly commercially made motors and kits. I don’t care about commercially made products. Not only are they expensive, but the amount of knowledge I gain from experimental rockets far exceeds anything commercial rockets could ever provide.

Other than the community aspect, why should I join an organization that limits my area of rocketry?
I would be paying NAR/Tripoli to limit my freedom. <-- Sounds like the government haha!
Am I missing something?
 
Last edited:
Tripoli supports research rocketry - and there are many other Tripoli members that can assist you.

Only if you are a Level 2 certified member. Therefore I have to waste time and money on building Level 1 and Level 2 rockets before I begin research.
 
There are very good reasons pvc is banned. I sincerely hope you don't find out why first hand. There are federal laws regarding rocket motor use, and being a member allows you to do rocketry legally. I believe what you are doing is not, irregardless of a legal waiver. NFPA 1127?
 
Only if you are a Level 2 certified member. Therefore I have to waste time and money on building Level 1 and Level 2 rockets before I begin research.

Why would have too build if you ,,,, "I got into rocketry a few years ago and have built an array of rockets."????
I don't get it, it should be a breeze for you then, and you'd be flying legally
 
Well one man's "limitations" are another man's safety code. Sounds to me like you've answered your own question. Good luck and stay safe.

BTW NFPA 1127 is only law where adopted by state, county, or municipal governments. It is the basis for the insurance coverage offered to Tripoli and NAR members when following those organizations safety codes.
 
Same, thanks for the clarification. I seem to remember back when I first got into Rocketry, access was limited to A, military or government institutions, B colleges or university's, C members of a recognized hobby organization (Tra, NAR). Is this still the regs?
 
You would truly learn a lot by joining Tripoli,, research friendly..
It is not possible for you to know now what you don't know ( I hope Krech doesn't mind me quoting him )...
You seem to believe attaining a level 2 would take a great deal of time and money..
With your experience and rockets you've already built that is not the case at all..
There is no rule about time frame for certs ( I think )..
You'd wind up sorry you didn't join Tripoli and a club sooner...

Teddy
 
Why would have too build if you ,,,, "I got into rocketry a few years ago and have built an array of rockets."????
I don't get it, it should be a breeze for you then, and you'd be flying legally

I have only built Level 2 Experimental Rockets. Everything else would not qualify. I just don't want to invest time/money in something I am not interested in.
 
Hello
I got into rocketry a few years ago and have built an array of rockets. However, the past few years, I submerged myself into the world of experimental rocketry. Since then I have built sugar motors ranging from F to K. I am an independent free agent. I fly alone and file my own FAA flight permits.

I do not hold any Level 1, Level 2, or Level 3 certifications; however, I have flown sugar rockets that reached Level 2 altitude. The problem is my rockets use PVC engine casings, which are banned in both Tripoli and NAR. If I joined these organizations, I would most certainly be forced to stop my research.
I would also be forced to fly commercially made motors and kits. I don’t care about commercially made products. Not only are they expensive, but the amount of knowledge I gain from experimental rockets far exceeds anything commercial rockets could ever provide.

Other than the community aspect, why should I join an organization that limits my area of rocketry?
I would be paying NAR/Tripoli to limit my freedom. <-- Sounds like the government haha!
Am I missing something?

You would truly learn a lot by joining Tripoli,, research friendly..
It is not possible for you to know now what you don't know ( I hope Krech doesn't mind me quoting him )...
Teddy

Thanks Teddy, couldn't have said it better. Essentially, our community is why I'm flying now. Without it, I wouldn't be having fun. If you are only interested in research on sugar motors, you don't need any certification, you don't even need rockets. A test stand that measures thrust would be sufficient. That sounds boring to me, but many rocketeers are into it. So you have limited what you can learn by only flying sugar motors.


I have only built Level 2 Experimental Rockets. Everything else would not qualify. I just don't want to invest time/money in something I am not interested in.

Once again, you have limited what you can learn. There is a whole world of knowledge that you are not aware of. But I'm not going to try to convince you to join an organization or club. If all you are interested in is flying "Level 2" experimental rockets by yourself, have at it. If you are interested in flying all kinds of rockets, and learning from others that do that, you came to the right place.

Welcome to "The Rocketry Forum".
 
I have only built Level 2 Experimental Rockets. Everything else would not qualify. I just don't want to invest time/money in something I am not interested in.

By the combined total of you posts/responses to other's posting, you seem to have already made up your mind...:sigh:
 
Thanks Teddy, couldn't have said it better. Essentially, our community is why I'm flying now. Without it, I wouldn't be having fun. If you are only interested in research on sugar motors, you don't need any certification, you don't even need rockets. A test stand that measures thrust would be sufficient. That sounds boring to me, but many rocketeers are into it. So you have limited what you can learn by only flying sugar motors.




Once again, you have limited what you can learn. There is a whole world of knowledge that you are not aware of. But I'm not going to try to convince you to join an organization or club. If all you are interested in is flying "Level 2" experimental rockets by yourself, have at it. If you are interested in flying all kinds of rockets, and learning from others that do that, you came to the right place.

Welcome to "The Rocketry Forum".

You make some good points...
I If joined, would I be able to fly sugar motors on my own time outside of Tripoli events?
Does Tripoli limit my independent activities?
 
Same, thanks for the clarification. I seem to remember back when I first got into Rocketry, access was limited to A, military or government institutions, B colleges or university's, C members of a recognized hobby organization (Tra, NAR). Is this still the regs?

I'm not familar with those restrictions. Perhaps something that applies to EX rocketry ?
 
I value the camaraderie and the insurance coverage. You might want to find a club launch near you just to see if those activities are of interest to you.
 
I'm not sure why getting certified TRA L2 would be a big hassle. If you're flying sugar rockets at J or above impulse already, you'll have a rocket that can take a J commercial motor. Fly it once on a commercial H for your L1, take the written test, fly it on a commercial J for your L2. Done in a day at a club launch. Then you can bring your sugar motors to club launches that are under TRA Experimental rules and fly whatever you can get past the RSO.

I'd be surprised if TRA restricted your activities outside of TRA launches, although you wouldn't get the benefit of their insurance if you don't follow their safety code. I suppose that if you flagrantly and repeatedly violated the code in ways that were a danger to the public, they might throw you out. If you aren't interested in following their safety code, then you probably shouldn't join.
 
Being a member of NAR or TRA and flying under their safety codes gives you access to $1M worth of insurance. Now, insurance is something we all hope we'll never need, and one could go through life without car insurance or hospitalization and never suffer for it, provided the govtr. would allow it and nothing bad happens. But when it does....
 
I'm not familar with those restrictions. Perhaps something that applies to EX rocketry ?

Nope, this was law when I joined Tripoli in the early 90's. It was printed on every high power motor catalog I sent for.
 
You make some good points...
I If joined, would I be able to fly sugar motors on my own time outside of Tripoli events?
Does Tripoli limit my independent activities?

Ummmmm, Nobody can restrict you what you do on your own time. The respective privileges of insurance of course wouldn't be available. NAR insurance protects whenever, wherever one flies but of course doesn't include experimentation. If you wanna fly sugar motor in RMS cases, you'd be welcomed at
TRA launches where Research is allowed given you have achieved the L2 level. For what you say, sounds like you could do that pretty easily. A 3FNC with motor ejection on a J350 is pretty easy to pull off after passing a written.

NAR = none of your current activities welcomed

TRA = could do sugar in Aluminum RMS cases (of your own design and construction if you wanted to) but not PVC as long as you formally achieve L2 status.
You could fly any motor up to a presumed L impulse.

But if you are used to being the lone wolf by yourself and don't care for the social aspect of flying with others, keep doing what you are doing. As long as you
have your own waiver, shouldn't upset the FAA. Be safe and best of luck.

One parting thought. You could seek out and show up at a launch to watch and chat with the participants and a club officer. Might help you make a decision either way. Kurt
 
Last edited:
You make some good points...
I If joined, would I be able to fly sugar motors on my own time outside of Tripoli events?
Does Tripoli limit my independent activities?

In my mind, it's always better to ask forgiveness than ask permission. Me personally, I'm morally and ethically responsible for everything I do, and that is the only thing that would limit what I fly and how I fly it. If I had my own waiver, I would still use the guidelines set forth by Tripoli. That's just me, I believe the system we use gives us a good chance to have a safe launch. What I think you are missing is the fun we have sharing our flights with others. Sure, it's exciting to watch a rocket launch. Each and everyone here gets that. What you don't get is that your excitement is magnified by the sounds of a crowd watching the rocket you built tear off the pad and rip into the sky. Not to mention the comments you hear and share with others.

Not sure if you are aware of this, but sugar motors are research motors and can be flown at research launches.
As far as certification, it doesn't cost you anything but the money spent on the rocket and motor. Really, the limiting factor for most of us is $. Tripoli membership is $70. For some, that is a formidable obstacle. If that's the real reason for your resistance to joining, then you probably should stick with sugar motors and flying by yourself. It doesn't get cheaper as you grow in this hobby, and we all have to find the altitude that we are capable of achieving with the budget that we have.

Bottom line is, nobody here is going to convince you to do something you don't want to do. This forum is all about sharing ideas and getting feedback on them. If your idea of fun is flying rockets with sugar motors by yourself, then "good on you mate!" If you are ready to expand your knowledge of rocketry into the many other facets of this hobby, we might have something for you....
 
The problem is my rockets use PVC engine casings, which are banned in both Tripoli and NAR. If I joined these organizations, I would most certainly be forced to stop my research.
I would also be forced to fly commercially made motors and kits. I don&#8217;t care about commercially made products. Not only are they expensive, but the amount of knowledge I gain from experimental rockets far exceeds anything commercial rockets could ever provide.

Other than the community aspect, why should I join an organization that limits my area of rocketry?
I would be paying NAR/Tripoli to limit my freedom. <-- Sounds like the government haha!
Am I missing something?
CKurtz15,
I'd like to respectfully submit you are indeed missing something. On one hand you expound upon the knowledge you gain from experimental rocketry yet just a few sentences later you slam both the NAR and Tripoli for limiting your freedom.
If indeed knowledge is important to you, I would have thought you would have come up with the question "Why does Tripoli ban PVC cases?" You imply they do it just to infringe upon your freedoms. Nothing can be further from the truth. Indeed Tripoli is trying to look after your safety.

I had the pleasure to serve on the Tripoli Board of Directors with Dr. Terry McCreary. If you don't know him, the "rocketry professer" has forgotten more about research rocketry than most of us have acquired over the years. One day he and I were talking about PVC cases and he said there are two reasons PVC makes bad motor cases. The first is that PVC is a frangible material. For us non-PHD types that means it's brittle and when it fails, it fails into small sharp pieces that fly everywhere. That got my attention. But what really opened my eyes was his second reason. Terry kinda grinned and said "After the CATO, PVC pieces don't show up real well on the X-Rays they will take of you in the hospital!"

You don't have to join one group or another. There are benefits to doing so but if that's not where your interests lie, that's up to you. But please, stop using PVC for your cases! Your emergency room physician will be much happier when things go wrong.

Bob Brown
Vice President, Tripoli Rocketry Association
 
another issue with pvc. you are not going to get anywhere near the full potential of any fuel mix before the case fails. as I recall bp motors run a chamber pressure of about 80 psi, ap somewhere around 500 - 600(or higher) psi. most pvc pipe is rated to 200 psi(liquid, not air)
Rex
 
To the OP - if you haven't already...

You might find it helpful to attend a large regional or national launch.... to see what goes on at one of these launches. Launching your rocket with a big bunch of like-minded folk is priceless! :)
 
Ckurtz15, you have to remember that not everyone has your know-how (assuming here) and many of the safety rules are to protect new and inexperienced flyers from getting nominated for a Darwin award. I think you should scout out the local clubs and at least see what they have to offer. Some will be very welcoming to a fellow experimental rocketeer, some may be less so. If you are lucky enough to find a good match, then I guarantee you will learn something new. And, you will probably teach someone else something new. This is all assuming you're not a misanthrope holed-up in a cabin somewhere. In order for it to be fun, or least not painful, you have to like other people--at least a little. One final note, the days of the "basement bomber" propaganda campaigns are mostly behind us. Experimental rocketry is becoming more mainstream in the hobby, on par with the "makers" movement. If you look around online you will see build-your-own motor courses taught by Loki, Wickman, and maybe more. I think Loki is apcp and Wickman is ancp. Richard Nakka is the "rocket candy" guy, I think, but doesn't have a course to my knowledge. Good luck in your journey brother. Let us know how it turns out.
 
You've told us nothing about the rockets themselves, in particular recovery. You could be doing some advanced stuff but I'm guessing you're flying winged motors. If you have a reusable, recoverable rocket capable of flying off a low-pressure sugar motor smaller than a baseball bat, and can mount the motor, you should be able to buy a level 1 motor for it and get a L1 cert. It might even go higher. If it's the exact right size you could do both certs.

Many of us actually focus more on the rocket itself than the motors. A reusable rocket can be made pretty and impressive in itself. I admit I've thought about the appeal of big, dumb motors that don't perform that well but are cheap and make lots of smoke.

You could also go to a launch and watch before, or instead, of spending a thing.
 
I think one of the if not the the biggest reason to join Tripoli or NAR, or at least your local club is safety. Not necessarily physical safety, but conversational and social. Every time I talk to someone about Amateur/High-Power/Experimental Rocketry, I worry. Is this the time that someone goes off the rails on me? Do they assume I am a bad actor? I have to be careful, and I have to assure everyone I talk to that I am not a bad actor, yes I am licensed, yes we work with many government agencies to legally do what we do. When you are at a local rocket launch you don't have to worry about that, almost everyone at a launch supports the hobby and wants to talk about it. You can learn from other people, just chat, or teach others without any of the worry in the back of our collective heads about someone potentially freaking out and reporting us for doing something perfectly legal and fun. Being among other people who love the hobby is a great thing, and at least at the launches I have flown at, everyone understands that there are people who love the different aspects of the hobby, be it low-power, mid-power, high-power, scale, research, hybrids, or something else entirely and will be happy to let you do what you want to do. Something to consider, that's all.
 
Being a member of NAR or TRA and flying under their safety codes gives you access to $1M worth of insurance. .

Tripoli insurance for injury is 3M and for fire 100,000, so don&#8217;t put the fire in the field with a Skidmark.
 
I was told a long time ago by a fellow rocketeer that he sometimes tells certain minded people to stay away/out of the rocketry community/hobby for safety and bad press reasons, and this individual is showing the same mind set of the very same people that my fellow rocketeer has shunned away from the hobby. Yes this is the safest hobby and we don't need people with this mind set to ruin it for the rest of us, I Am sorry but please stay away/out of the rocket community/hobby, and what you are doing will not only hurt the rocket community, you will hurt your self and others as well. The safety rules are in place for a reason, to keep people safe. Now, if you do decide to have a different mind set/attitude then I will welcome you to the hobby/community.
 
Back
Top