Loading your Rocket ahead of time-SAFETY

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accpool

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Has anyone ever tried to see how much it would take to set off a pre-loaded "lighter" package "accidentally". Regardless of how you contain your charge, container, glove tip, tube etc. OR what it would take to accidentally light your motor? I am not trying to see if we can shortcut safety, just curious about how wrong it needs to go before there is an accident. Good practice it to not load or energize "lighter" until Rocket is on the rail. Will a twisted pair of the Lighter prevent all but the most ridiculous attempt to get it to fire? Why can we put an igniter in a LPR rocket and take it through the RSO line and no one has issue with it, same thing with MPR. Is it when moving into HPR and something goes wrong it goes real wrong? In my day job there are many "they say" scenarios that are not rooted in fact or testing, just someone said it and was adopted. Please don't burn me at the stake, just asking.
 
A super literal interpretation of the HPR Safety code.

4. Ignition System. I will launch my rockets with an electrical launch system, and with electrical motor igniters that are installed in the motor only after my rocket is at the launch pad or in a designated prepping area. My launch system will have a safety interlock that is in series with the launch switch that is not installed until my rocket is ready for launch, and will use a launch switch that returns to the “off” position when released. The function of onboard energetics and firing circuits will be inhibited except when my rocket is in the launching position.

Jerome
 
I agree. Remember My question is about if the Deployment or ignition is installed how easily can it prematurely or accidentally be triggered. This is not about safety procedure, more about if you made it ready how likely is a mishap.
 
All good questions. There is a lot of "thou shall not do this" out there, but I am also curious to see some facts and data.
 
I think it's a good question...I often like to figure out what can go wrong and I was wondering the same myself recently since I seem to be blessed by the god of thunder with a LOT of static electricity (used to have to ground myself 2-3 times after getting out of my car by touching the car door with the back of my fist...even through gloves and have even gotten a burn mark my fingernail with an orange arc when getting out of my office chair).

Even if not asking for before you get to the launch pad, I think it's a good question as to the chance of the ignitor firing as you're putting it in on the pad.

I would think twisting the wire ends touching is a good safety work around. Seems to work great when trying to light the darn thing! ;)
 
Static electricity setting off a starter is most likely all but impossible. I don't know out of hundreds of millions of launches and assembled ejection charges it has happened to, I never heard of any. Regardless the precautions we use anyway are nothing hard to do. I make up my ejection charges ahead of time, keep the wires twisted together and store in a anti static bag.
 
Way back in the 90's, there were more than a few stories circulating that some had set off a motor(s) in the motel they were staying in.

Whether it was from sheer stupidity or freak accident, who knows???

The igniter should be the last thing to be installed, at the pad and no where else!

JD
 
Does that story have anything to do with Ellis I59's... and broom handles? :p
 
Static electricity setting off a starter is most likely all but impossible.
You likely haven't experienced the static discharges I've lived with (and no...I don't wear wool and polyester underwear). I feel this is a sad curse I have to deal with it on almost a daily basis in the winter. I've smelled smoke after some bigger zaps and the biggest was one with an orange arc and left a burn mark on my fingernail. I did a quick search and static electricity can set off black powder, so there is potential. I might do a test of it with a starter one day just to see...however weather is getting warmer and more humid now, so conditions aren't as prime for the electric show as it was this past winter. :p

BTW - I have a exercise bike with a heart monitor sensor on it and half the time when I get out of my chair it beeps since it senses some electrical impulse simliar to when the user grabs the sensor bars. I used to think it was my movement, but later could tell it was the static grounding along the carpet as I got out of my chair.

One great thing out of this conversation is more tips on precaution. Thanks to accpool for starting it.
 
The igniter should be the last thing to be installed, at the pad and no where else!

JD

Well, the governing bodies disagree with you as stated above: only after my rocket is at the launch pad or in a designated prepping area.

What makes a "designated prepping area?" In my experience at various club launches, this is merely another table setup a few feet from the LCO table. I don't find that any safer than my own work table.
 
NFPA 1127 4.13.5 is the rule about installing the starter at the launcher or within the designated prep area.

- 4.13.7 is the one about arming the electronics.
 
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DERAIL... thread is not about Safety Rules. It is about, can this happen scenarios. Looking for" this has happened to me or I witnessed", not second hand info. So far no one has posted any mishaps. Sorry, not wanting to sound harsh, but we know the rules and can quote sections of all the regs.
 
Way back in the 90's, there were more than a few stories circulating that some had set off a motor(s) in the motel they were staying in.

Whether it was from sheer stupidity or freak accident, who knows???

The igniter should be the last thing to be installed, at the pad and no where else!

JD

Does anyone have first hand evidence of this actually happening?
 
You likely haven't experienced the static discharges I've lived with (and no...I don't wear wool and polyester underwear). I feel this is a sad curse I have to deal with it on almost a daily basis in the winter. I've smelled smoke after some bigger zaps and the biggest was one with an orange arc and left a burn mark on my fingernail. I did a quick search and static electricity can set off black powder, so there is potential. I might do a test of it with a starter one day just to see...however weather is getting warmer and more humid now, so conditions aren't as prime for the electric show as it was this past winter. :p

BTW - I have a exercise bike with a heart monitor sensor on it and half the time when I get out of my chair it beeps since it senses some electrical impulse simliar to when the user grabs the sensor bars. I used to think it was my movement, but later could tell it was the static grounding along the carpet as I got out of my chair.

One great thing out of this conversation is more tips on precaution. Thanks to accpool for starting it.

Even with your exciting amount of Static Electricity (sorry about the Fingernail) , have you had any mishaps?
 
DERAIL... thread is not about Safety Rules. It is about, can this happen scenarios. Looking for" this has happened to me or I witnessed", not second hand info. So far no one has posted any mishaps. Sorry, not wanting to sound harsh, but we know the rules and can quote sections of all the regs.

At MWP 11 I witnessed a rocket fire its "air-start" motors while on the pad - with people very close at the next pad over.

At LDRS33 A large L2 or L3 project fired the ejection charges while sitting on the pad. I was recovering my rocket about 50 feet away when this happened.
 
At MWP 11 I witnessed a rocket fire its "air-start" motors while on the pad - with people very close at the next pad over.

At LDRS33 A large L2 or L3 project fired the ejection charges while sitting on the pad. I was recovering my rocket about 50 feet away when this happened.

Was this during final prep or as they loaded it, it was already ready to go?
 
Was this during final prep or as they loaded it, it was already ready to go?

Both examples happened to rockets on-the-pad, ready to launch. Both cases are attributable to electronics failure, - so still not what your looking for as far as a starter igniting the motor without being connected to a power source.

Honestly - I'd rather not have an HP motor fire before I got to the pad - why take Any (even remote) chance? Why not be as reasonably safe as possible?
 
Why can we put an igniter in a LPR rocket and take it through the RSO line and no one has issue with it, same thing with MPR. Is it when moving into HPR and something goes wrong it goes real wrong?

I guess the question is, if you are holding the rocket in your hand and it accidentally goes off, how many Newtons of thrust could you contain? Would a paper/balsa rocket with a C6 in it rip through your fingers, or would you just hold it away from your body until the motor burns out? Now how about a fiberglass rocket with a K in it?
 
Even with your exciting amount of Static Electricity (sorry about the Fingernail) , have you had any mishaps?
Luckily no. Given my situation, I'm very careful when working with flammable/explosive material. I used to reload, so I dealt with black powder and took a lot of precautions, so I'm also careful when handling rocket motors. Again, I think my situation is unique. Have you heard of anyone else who can get 3 separate static shocks while standing next to their car after getting out of it? Also it was routinely 2...became old hat to just get out of the car, close the door, touch the metal door with the back of my gloved fist 2-3 times...zap, zap, and sometimes one more zap. *sigh* That was the old car with cloth seats...now I make sure all my cars have leather seats to cut down on that. Also I can already tell there is less static now that it's getting warmer. I seem to get a lot of unusual situations...docs often just don't believe me until they see for themselves and many times I've heard "I've never seen that before!".

Also I'm a believer in Chaos Theory and Butterfly Theory...things can go wrong even with the best safeties. Fireworks, Flour and Paper factories have blown up. The Hindenburg went down. Static can be very dangerous (note that those weren't necessarily human static cases). One of the best safeties is to always realize that things can go wrong, so I'm with you...try to find out how things can go wrong.
 
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I guess the question is, if you are holding the rocket in your hand and it accidentally goes off, how many Newtons of thrust could you contain? Would a paper/balsa rocket with a C6 in it rip through your fingers, or would you just hold it away from your body until the motor burns out? Now how about a fiberglass rocket with a K in it?
I would guess that almost all of the time the person would be startled and the usual natural human reaction would be to let go of the rocket...even if held on for a few split seconds. God forbid this should happen, but if it does, let's all make a quick mental note to at least point the rocket up before letting go. Just my opinion.
 
I witnessed a K250 that was an upper stage be hand launched when the igniter was plugged into the electronics in the booster. It rolled out of the guys hand spinning and went pretty straight .

M
 
I do have one. It occurred about 16 years ago....
I was loading my altimeter into the rocket ( with live charges) they assembly was arms length away from my face when; without warning or even being armed, the Adept ALTS 25 fired.

I suffered singed hair and eye brows and a really bad sunburn.
I had to ride home with the AC on full blast in the middle of November.
That's about the only real case / incident that I know of that static electricity might have played a factor.

JD
 
I agree. Remember My question is about if the Deployment or ignition is installed how easily can it prematurely or accidentally be triggered. This is not about safety procedure, more about if you made it ready how likely is a mishap.

On some altimeters, let the 2 wires hanging out the vent hole touch each other, then maybe a big bang to follow, then get new pants form the trailer...LOL
 
Way back in the 90's, there were more than a few stories circulating that some had set off a motor(s) in the motel they were staying in.

Whether it was from sheer stupidity or freak accident, who knows???

The igniter should be the last thing to be installed, at the pad and no where else!

JD

Art Upton had posted he was there in Danville, Illinois at a Tripoli Danville Dare launch and witnessed the event. (Wasn't part of it.) Motor was an I65 that had an igniter in it and was being tested with a continuity tester! Too much current in the circuit.
I believe he said the motor started and the person held on to it. Motel room sustained damage. Kurt
 
I do have one. It occurred about 16 years ago....
I was loading my altimeter into the rocket ( with live charges) they assembly was arms length away from my face when; without warning or even being armed, the Adept ALTS 25 fired.

I suffered singed hair and eye brows and a really bad sunburn.
I had to ride home with the AC on full blast in the middle of November.
That's about the only real case / incident that I know of that static electricity might have played a factor.JD




I'll one up you JD. Was testing a homemade ematch augmented motor igniter a long......time......ago, using an ARTSII connected to a laptop to manually fire it out in the open. (No motors involved mind you) Had short wires so I was pretty close to the "event"
Tested several with no trouble. Then......one popped hard, flew up and I saw it out the corner of my eye and put up my arm. The pyrogen was burning like hellfire, the wire wrapped around my arm and the tip caught the inside of my ear for a split second and was whipped away by my arm thank heavens. The burn is the result below:

ear1.jpg

I had "crusties" coming out of my triangular fossa for two months and learned my lesson!! Kurt
 
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