AV bay all-thread

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Tonimus

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Has anyone used or considered using nylon all-thread for their AV bay? I was figuring I'd like to minimize interference in the AV bay for the GPS chip on my Eggtimer TRS, but I'm worried about the strength of the nylon.
 
Do you have a problem that needs solving ? Or are you trying to fix an imaginary problem? I have never had, nor heard of anyone having interference problems from the av bay construction. I would never use nylon for anything load bearing. One miscalculated, early deployment and you now have a 2 piece shear pin av bay.
 
Most electronics bays use all thread to hold it together and support the sled. Eggtimer Rocketry specifically states to not put the Eggfinder in that kind of construct.
 
^This. Upon further research, one can apparently obtain G10 threaded rod, which is as strong or stronger than aluminum. I'm sending an email to the manufacturer for details.
 
McMaster lists it, however the smallest they have is 3/8-16 thread. I would like to see some ideas on how to fabricate a mid body electronics bay without using all thread. I have an idea I am noodling about and will share once I get a bit further along.
 
I'm using metal screws to put the e-bay together. But that would require you to somehow attach nuts to the back of couplers. According to Eggtimer's manual, you can also externalize the antenna by using SMA connectors.

One way I can think of to make mid body bay without all thread is to epoxy all thread sections to sleds, so you can use the sled as joining sections. The difficulty is aligning the all thread pieces so that it remains straight after the epoxy cures.
 
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I've done it. I oversized it... 1/4" for 54mm and it worked fine.
 
McMaster lists it, however the smallest they have is 3/8-16 thread. I would like to see some ideas on how to fabricate a mid body electronics bay without using all thread. I have an idea I am noodling about and will share once I get a bit further along.

I too have been pondering this same issue, and just like you Al, I have some ideas that warrant further exploration. For smaller rockets under 5 pounds, I wounder if 10/24 NYLON all-thread (maybe 4 pieces instead of just 2 - and doubling the nuts) could be sufficient?

OR... what if the electronics bay was "just along for the ride". Attached in such a way that no shock-cord load was transmitted to it?
 
Pass some tubular Kevlar through the center of the electronics bay. Pass it through a tube or tie a knot on either side of the bay.
 
Eggtimer Rocketry specifically states to not put the Eggfinder in that kind of construct.

I would take that as: Eggtimer isn't optimized for rocketry if it can't be used in the most commonly constructed av-bay.

I haven't used Eggtimer, but with those restrictions, I'm thinking I might not use it in the future. My latest rocket even has all-thread in the center of the nose cone, between the metal tip and the bulkhead at the shoulder. There are just so many alternatives.
 
I would take that as: Eggtimer isn't optimized for rocketry if it can't be used in the most commonly constructed av-bay.

I haven't used Eggtimer, but with those restrictions, I'm thinking I might not use it in the future. My latest rocket even has all-thread in the center of the nose cone, between the metal tip and the bulkhead at the shoulder. There are just so many alternatives.

Sorry - I must disagree.

There are a few different "Egg" products.

The Eggfinder (GPS based locator) has no deployment channels, and is usually mounted in the nosecone.

The Eggfinder TRS (GPS with deployment) usually goes in an ebay... and the same precautions advised for the Altus Metrum TeleMega with regards to all thread - should be observed with both GPS Egg products.

Perhaps you should send a note to Bdale telling him the TeleMega isn't optimized for rocketry.

Please see page 52 of the TeleMega Manual https://altusmetrum.org/AltOS/doc/altusmetrum.pdf
 
I would take that as: Eggtimer isn't optimized for rocketry if it can't be used in the most commonly constructed av-bay.

I haven't used Eggtimer, but with those restrictions, I'm thinking I might not use it in the future. My latest rocket even has all-thread in the center of the nose cone, between the metal tip and the bulkhead at the shoulder. There are just so many alternatives.

As said before, the Eggfinder suggests either an AV bay without metal allthread OR an external antenna. The Eggtimer is unaffected by AV bay construction.

I've already got it setup for an external antenna. This is what I can do, rather than arguing points of the cheapest GPS tracking kit on the market, that also doesn't require licensing to buy and operate.
 
FWIW, in my 3" Punisher, I used a 1/16" G10 sled as a structural element, with aluminum channel brackets held on by #6 screws on the ends. The eyebolts screw into the brackets on both ends and are held together by the sled itself under tension. Seems to work OK.

sled.jpg
 
Pass some tubular Kevlar through the center of the electronics bay. Pass it through a tube or tie a knot on either side of the bay.

I have also wondered why this isn't the standard. Look at all the hardware that could be minimized. Kevlar could be "glued" inside of the outer wall and passed straight through the bay. Use some putty as it goes through the bulkheads to seal them from gasses.
 
Sorry - I must disagree.

There are a few different "Egg" products.

The Eggfinder (GPS based locator) has no deployment channels, and is usually mounted in the nosecone.

The Eggfinder TRS (GPS with deployment) usually goes in an ebay... and the same precautions advised for the Altus Metrum TeleMega with regards to all thread - should be observed with both GPS Egg products.

Perhaps you should send a note to Bdale telling him the TeleMega isn't optimized for rocketry.

Please see page 52 of the TeleMega Manual https://altusmetrum.org/AltOS/doc/altusmetrum.pdf

As said before, the Eggfinder suggests either an AV bay without metal allthread OR an external antenna. The Eggtimer is unaffected by AV bay construction.

I've already got it setup for an external antenna. This is what I can do, rather than arguing points of the cheapest GPS tracking kit on the market, that also doesn't require licensing to buy and operate.

I don't dispute that these electronics were designed for and intended to be used in rocketry. What I question is that if the most common method of assembling an av-bay is to use all-thread, then why didn't the manufacturer build a product that could be used in the commonly built av-bay? Why sell a product that forces the user to build their rocket in an unconventional method? It seems to me the manufacturer would be much better off if they designed a product that worked in an av-bay of the most common type of construction. Selling a product that doesn't work in the most common rockets would seem to be limiting their market to those customers that are willing to spend the extra time and effort to accommodate their design.
 
Why sell a product that forces the user to build their rocket in an unconventional method?

Mainly because there's no other choice. The limitation here is physics, unfortunately. I'm sure Eggtimer Rocketry (and many others) would be happy to break the laws of physics if only they could. Antennas generally don't like being placed close to large pieces of metal, it kinda cramps their style. :) Similarly things that transmit RF don't like being contained in tubes that absorb RF waves. There is always the option of using a remote antenna to position it away from those obstructions, as mentioned in the website/instructions and I believe on this thread. I've also seen several designs where people point the attached antenna outside the top or bottom of the avionics bay which gets it clear of the metal, though I suspect it might see a lot of abuse there during deployment/landing also.

Eggtimer Rocketry does have separate products for deployment and tracking, which work well if your rocket has the space to mount two separate pieces of electronics, you can put the Eggtimer (deployment altimeter) in the avionics bay and the Eggfinder (tracker) in the nose and provided the nosecone doesn't absorb/distort RF that will work just fine. If you don't have the space, there is the option of the Eggtimer TRS, which combines those two functions into one. But it does bring with it the complication of either doing deployment from your NC (which, if you're limited on space as I am in one of my rockets, may be the only choice anyhow, likely better suited for a cable-cutter-style approach than the more traditional drogue+main) or if you're going to place it in an avionics bay then there is the issue of having the antenna near other pieces of metal, so you either have to just deal with that and the reduced range / dead spots that result, or else go with a separate antenna that can be mounted farther away from the metal. If there was a suitable non-metal solution for an avionics bay that would be a third possible option, which is what the OP inquired about. But the same would be true of any other RF transmitter solution, at least in the 900MHz band, but I don't see why it wouldn't affect other bands as well. Even the GPS receiver antenna won't much like being blocked by metal if it's in the wrong place.

About the only other option would be to just not fly an RF transmitter at all. That's not acceptable/desirable to everybody of course. I launch in fields where without some sort of tracking system I'd have lost all of my rockets already, so I won't fly in those fields without a tracker. My Eggfinder paid for itself the very first time it flew, even though I thought I saw exactly where the rocket landed.

To the OP, you didn't really mention how big/heavy your rocket is. Are you looking at the TRS because it's a low-cost solution, or because you have a smaller rocket and don't have space for two separate units? If you have the space, separate units is something to consider (the Eggtimer is more capable than the Eggtimer TRS from what I've seen, more channels, more options for the channels, etc). I haven't used it myself, I have some Eggfinders because it was a low-cost, no-license-required tracking method for rockets where I already had (or otherwise didn't need) deployment electronics, and a TRS for a rocket with no space for separate solutions where I fly it in the nosecone, so nearby metal isn't an issue.

One thing I'd wonder about, having just looked at a fully 3D-printed rocket this past weekend, is whether there could be some sort of (probably pretty thick and heavy) plastic avionics bay where two coupler-style pieces could thread together instead of the more traditional tubes, end-caps, and all-thread/nuts to hold the end caps together. I'm sure this would only be good for lighter rockets, at least without being a significant hunk of plastic. But I would imagine such a thing could work in some circumstances at least, in the case of these 3D printed rockets threaded sections were what held the entire rocket together (since the printer couldn't make a single, long airframe). The ideas of passing the shock cord through the bay also sound interesting (tackle the problem of stresses being placed on the end caps instead of an alternate way to attach those caps), though there would still be the question of how you'd hold the bay shut I'd think. Perhaps that's with more nylon/kevlar? Making a good seal that way while still allowing easy access to the inside of the bay when needed sounds tricky to me. Though there was the roll-pin idea mentioned on this thread, I wonder if something like that could be applied here.
 
To the OP, you didn't really mention how big/heavy your rocket is. Are you looking at the TRS because it's a low-cost solution, or because you have a smaller rocket and don't have space for two separate units? If you have the space, separate units is something to consider (the Eggtimer is more capable than the Eggtimer TRS from what I've seen, more channels, more options for the channels, etc). I haven't used it myself, I have some Eggfinders because it was a low-cost, no-license-required tracking method for rockets where I already had (or otherwise didn't need) deployment electronics, and a TRS for a rocket with no space for separate solutions where I fly it in the nosecone, so nearby metal isn't an issue.

One thing I'd wonder about, having just looked at a fully 3D-printed rocket this past weekend, is whether there could be some sort of (probably pretty thick and heavy) plastic avionics bay where two coupler-style pieces could thread together instead of the more traditional tubes, end-caps, and all-thread/nuts to hold the end caps together. I'm sure this would only be good for lighter rockets, at least without being a significant hunk of plastic. But I would imagine such a thing could work in some circumstances at least, in the case of these 3D printed rockets threaded sections were what held the entire rocket together (since the printer couldn't make a single, long airframe). The ideas of passing the shock cord through the bay also sound interesting (tackle the problem of stresses being placed on the end caps instead of an alternate way to attach those caps), though there would still be the question of how you'd hold the bay shut I'd think. Perhaps that's with more nylon/kevlar? Making a good seal that way while still allowing easy access to the inside of the bay when needed sounds tricky to me. Though there was the roll-pin idea mentioned on this thread, I wonder if something like that could be applied here.

The reason I've gone with the Eggtime TRS is because I've got 2 Eggtimers already, and I really like them. The cost is a factor, plus I plan on running a regular Eggtimer as a backup. So I'll have the Eggtime TRS, an Eggtimer, 4 batteries, and associated switches and wiring in there.

The first rocket it is going in is my 4" Madcow Patriot, weighs about 6 pounds or so. I've contacted a company called E&T Fasteners and I've inquired about their 1/4"x20 G10 threaded rod.
 
Pass some tubular Kevlar through the center of the electronics bay. Pass it through a tube or tie a knot on either side of the bay.

Genius.. but on second thought.. couldn't have any gas from the drogue bay being transferred to the main bay during apogee on a standard D/D rocket
 
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I guess I have a few problems.

One, I'm getting old, crotchety, and set in my ways and I figure if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've been using a Walston DF tracker that has worked just fine. It's not needed most of the time, but it shortens the recovery time a lot. Instead of looking for the rocket for a few hours, I can walk right to it in 15 or 20 minutes. There are no issues with metal in the rocket, GPS reception, data packet transmission, cell phone reception or any of the other issues that the "new" technology can run into.

Two, I'm cheap! I have a system that works very well and I can't see spending more money for a new system that may or may not work as dependably as what I have. If there isn't a distinct advantage to the new technology I don't see a reason to spend money to upgrade to something that doesn't work any better then what I already have just because it's new.

With that all said, I don't see any reason for not using the newer technology if you are investing in a tracking system for the first time. I would just suggest that you take a real good look at what the capabilities and limitations are and balance those against other systems. I know we tend to go with the latest and greatest technology, but sometimes that new technology brings more problems and issues with it then it is worth for the application we use it for. GPS navigation systems are a prime example. How many of you have ended up someplace you didn't want to be because the nav system directed you to it. My friend ended up in a cow pasture. An old fashion paper map could have avoided the whole thing in many cases. Granted, the nav system is very convenient and works great most of the time and has some convenient features, but having a map that shows you the big picture instead of the 1/4 mile display of the nav system can make a big difference. It's all about knowing the limitations of the technology you are using.
 
I have also wondered why this isn't the standard. Look at all the hardware that could be minimized. Kevlar could be "glued" inside of the outer wall and passed straight through the bay. Use some putty as it goes through the bulkheads to seal them from gasses.

+1 - Yes to this ^^^

You can still use *some* metal hardware to keep the bulkheads on tight - as long as you are keeping it minimal and away from the antenna of the GPS transmitter. :)
 
I barely know which way is up on my rockets, so I might get flamed for this. Has anyone tried using any "EGG stuff" using a conventional Av-bay with metal rods and then flown it in the same rocket trying to duplicate the flight with putting it in a nosecone with no metal. After both flights compared to see if there is any real difference or at least enough difference that it would matter in the recovering the rocket.
 
McMaster lists it, however the smallest they have is 3/8-16 thread. I would like to see some ideas on how to fabricate a mid body electronics bay without using all thread. I have an idea I am noodling about and will share once I get a bit further along.

Sure, lots of examples of this, especially for small diameters. See here.
 
Adrian did build thread on his altitude record ebays a couple years back. He used the kevlar through the bay idea. Then you can use any light hardware you want to just hold the bay together, since it doesn't carry the shock load of deployment. Seems simple enough and I'm surprised more don't do it that way. It saves most, if not all the weight of allthread, nuts, washers, eyebolts, u-bolts, quicklinks, etc.
-Ken
 
I barely know which way is up on my rockets, so I might get flamed for this. Has anyone tried using any "EGG stuff" using a conventional Av-bay with metal rods and then flown it in the same rocket trying to duplicate the flight with putting it in a nosecone with no metal. After both flights compared to see if there is any real difference or at least enough difference that it would matter in the recovering the rocket.

I don't think there's anything that would justify flaming there, it would certainly be a very interesting experiment, though probably one where you would get a different result every time (even with the transmitter in the same place). I'm not aware of anyone who has tried it.

The effects of metal on RF is certainly pretty well-understood, advanced technologies like WiFi do a lot of work to deal with this since they are meant to be used in buildings with metal studs and lots of other randomly-placed metal (pipes, wiring, other electronics, etc). It makes a total mess out of the actual wireless signal, and the reflections coming off all these things can create a 'null' right where your receiving antenna is, leaving you with no signal at all. This is generally solved with multiple antennas, so even if one ends up in a null hopefully one of the other(s) won't be so you'll still get some signal. But if you seal your wireless transmitter or receiver in a metal cage it doesn't matter how many antennas you have, it won't work at all. In a real flight test there would be so many factors including the exact distance from the antenna to the nearby metal, the position of the antenna & metal compared to your receiver (you might get just the right distance/reflection off the metal and get a stronger signal than you would have without the nearby metal), etc. So it would be really hard to reproduce. I think Eggtimer Rocketry is mainly playing it safe, you do take more of a risk by having large pieces of metal nearby, and it would suck to lose your rocket because you just happened to get unlucky (and it would suck more for Eggtimer Rocketry if you blamed them for losing your rocket). I view the tracker as insurance, without it I might be guaranteed to lose the rocket, with it I stand a much better chance of recovering it. But doing things that compromise its effectiveness are unwise if they can be avoided. Would you rather have a front door lock that works sometimes, or all the time? :)

You wouldn't really be able to do a good job on the experiment with just the standard kit anyhow, at least all you'd get would be a very basic works/doesn't work result. You'd really need some sort of signal strength meter to see just how strong the signal is during the flight. Plus the Eggfinder/Eggtimer TRS only transmit in very short bursts, once a second when the GPS receiver emits its next chunk of data. Ideally you'd want something that transmitted continuously so that you could see how the signal is affected at all times during the flight. You'd never know if the burst happens just while the rocket is in the wrong orientation so you miss the data, or if the metal is never in the way when it transmits so you wouldn't see any effect from it. Personally I'd suspect there's enough randomness in the position of the rocket when coming down that provided you at least tried to keep the antenna away (i.e. didn't tape it right to the all-thread) things might not be so bad, or you might lose one packet occasionally but get all of the other ones. But would I take the risk? Absolutely not unless I had no other choice.
 
I was at Tap Plastics today and noticed they had some solid fiberglass rods. I bought a piece of the .250 diameter stuff. I tired threading some when I got home. It sort of ate it self up into dust no matter how slow or how much flushing of the chips (dust) I did. So, scratch threading solid fiberglass rods from possibilities.

Tony
 
McMaster lists it, however the smallest they have is 3/8-16 thread. I would like to see some ideas on how to fabricate a mid body electronics bay without using all thread. I have an idea I am noodling about and will share once I get a bit further along.

scsager said:
I too have been pondering this same issue, and just like you Al, I have some ideas that warrant further exploration....

What about this??...

Make the sled itself the structural component (G-10). Provide some tabs at each end that fit through some slots in the end centering rings (both ends). In those tabs, drill some holes (located to coincide with both surfaces of the centering rings) that you fit some fiberglass 'pins' (say, 1/8" dia x 1/2" long) through (to hold the sled and rings together and in alignment --- this is what would transfer any structural load to/from the rings/sled) and then epoxy the assembly together (which would seal the area from any gas blow-by). This would make the sled/ring assembly one piece, structurally. G-10 has a tensile strength of 38,000 psi (roughly equivalent to steel), so it would be more than capable of carrying whatever load would be imposed - but, if in doubt, route some Kevlar alongside for insurance. A 1/16"t x 54mm sled would be about 0.13 sq.in. area (cross-section) - which would translate into something over 5000lbs tensile - more than 5x what a (steel) 1/4" all-thread rod could carry (and that's without deductions for thread depth).

This is something akin to the post reference Will Ferry mentioned (the 'roll pin' idea):

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?123671&p=1433317#post1433317

I've got several 6' lengths of some 1/8" solid fiberglass rod that I'll hack off a bit and try to do a mockup.

I'm also tinkering with a CAD drawing on this and maybe able to upload once I figure out a few 3D items on the drawing.

-- john
 
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John, that's a great idea. I may end up going that route in the future, but for this build, I was trying to find a retrofit, rather than a whole new setup.
 
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