GOALBUSTING - Dual 3" Builds

Okay good folks of TRF, working on a few builds and wanted to document the process. Banter, advice, derailments, criticism, and all things applicable to the builds and the greater hobby are welcomed. I am not easily offended, and my sense of humor seems often lost in text only communication, but to the limits the mods will allow ALL inputers with a sense of humor are encouraged to weigh in. This will not be a FULL ON build thread and will probably be completed over the next month at best. If you are looking for something new and innovative these builds probably won't help. For me, part of the fun is the flight report and whether it is success or failure. No matter what expect lots of pictures of the entire process through at least the first flight attempts (hopefully more). So in a rather shameless manner, utilizing a similar format to other build threaders I enjoy following HERE GOES! :horse:

GOALS
Break 2 miles (10560') AGL

Definitively break Mach 1
Because I will be using barometric only altimeters - setting the bar @ 1300 ft/sec

Build a rocket without a kit
Not exactly a scratchbuild as I will likely clone or scale cloned fins and will use a few items for wiring and ejection I could or have made myself. IMO, true scratchbuilders do everything from rolling the tubes and making the nosecone to unique motor retention. ALL difficult undertakings I do not want or plan to take on for the time being.

Fly an EX motor of my making in both.
AFTER a Loki Research fueled structural reliability check :grin:

Don't hurry and enjoy the process.

Planned Builds

Rocketry Warehouse Adventurer 3
I purchased this kit upon the release shortly after the news of the tragic loss to Rocketry Warehouse and the greater community. I didn't personally know Gisele (DiDi) , but I will fly this rocket in her honor to the best of my ability.
I plan to build this kit as sold using common techniques. AeroPack's tailcone retainer, a little FG, all-thread and nuts, 1010 buttons, plus some epoxy foam should just about do it.

Not a Kit
UN-optimized 3" FWFG MD with VK NC using standard method DD with full redundancy - hahaha - can you imagine saying it the way I typed it to a random person, but I bet most here know what I mean. For the uninitiated , that's a 3" filament wound fiberglass minimum diameter with a Von Karman nose cone using dual deploy (I still struggle with some of the online acronyms - only figured out FWIW and YMMV recently).
Although some here have proven it is not necessary for the intended flight profile, T2T will be done like tfish demonstrates - 1/3rd - 2/3rd - Full - with aeropoxy and (I think) 6oz s-glass. Motor retention will be with the AeroPack MD retainer, probably epoxied in place but that is still in the air. Also including those aerodynamic enemies- rail guides!!!

Electronics
Adventurer 3 - Missile Works RRC3 & PerfectFlite Stratologger CF for deployment - BigRedBee 900GPS for tracking.
Not a Kit - Missile Works RRC3 & RRC2+ for deployment - BRB 900GPS for tracking.

First time using DogHouse Rocketry wiring harnesses and ejection canisters, but I like the idea of fully field repairable/replaceable & modular systems.

Recovery -Applies to both
Main (final weight allowing) - Fruity Chutes Iris 48" Ultra standard chute with deployment bag.
Drogue- Top Flight 12" - 15" if observed stability under the 12" sucks.
Main harness - Onebadhawk 25' 11/32" 3 loop tubular Kevlar.
Drogue harness - Onebadhawk 50' 11/32" 3 loop tubular Kevlar.
Welded eye-bolts or U-bolts.

Procedure and Bonding Agents
All parts to be bonded will be first washed in Dawn and water, rinsed, then sanded with 220 (100 if necessary for shaping), finally cleaned with alcohol. All surfaces to be bonded will be handled with gloves from wash to bond.
This is my first time to "foam the fin-can" and will be using the ProLine foam.
Rocketpoxy G5000- for the majority of bonding.
ProLine 4500 - for A3 fin-MMT and external fillets.
AeroPoxy PR2032 Resin & PH3660 Hardener - for T2T layup.
Gorilla 5min - PEM nuts and if quick or runny applications are necessary.
LocTite RED - Al nosecone tips and any permanent nut.

First Flight Motors
Adventurer 3 - J525 Loki White ***Initial SIM - actual flight will likely be lower and slower*** - 5521' AGL - 681 ft/sec
Not a Kit - L840 Loki Cocktail ***Initial SIM - actual flight will likely be lower and slower*** - 15552'AGL - 1378 ft/sec
I don't want to come back and update the files for correctness, but PM me if you for some reason want the preliminary Roc-sims - one of which is available @ www.rocketrywarehouse.com

The build started modestly last month. I managed to wash-sand-clean & bond the A3 bulkhead plates, and cut all the necessary bulk plates. No pictures - used a Harbor Freight drill press and McMaster circle cutter. Since I needed 4 more of the EXACT same lids the pictures from today will have to suffice...about that...how about less blah blah and more pictures!!! ALMOST....

I had a very entertaining dialogue with Teddy @ www.onebadhaw.com, regarding the 50' drogue harnesses. I have an unexplainable like of LONG harnesses. No large trees, or even large land bushes where I normally fly so maybe it is for the extra drag or maybe even ease of removal for someone else from the ever impending power lines. Who knows, but I asked for the custom harnesses and advice. Teddy pointed out the fit may not be right, so I connected the two on hand main harnesses for a check of 50' with a drogue in a 3" AF. Good fitament, no stick required. FINALLY PICTURES!!!:duck:


NOW the "obligatory" parts pic - More parts than I could get a good picture of the all at once! A few are still on order or in transit, but the majority is here.


Repurposed the recently outgrown "parts" bath :lol: The sad part is my daughter outgrew it first, my son just recently made the leap.


After a wash-sand-clean bonding of the switch bands and AF to Coupler lids was completed.


Recently read in a thread someone mention they thought the most useful tool is a drill press. If you already have a hand drill and just want it to be easier and more precise I couldn't agree more.


You may notice there are two different size charge wells, yes a 1.5g and 3g. It shouldn't take more than 1.5 for any of the cavities I am pressurizing, but follow the philosophy of "blow it out or blow it up". My rule of thumb- what worked in ground test as primary - that times 2 plus 0.2g for back-up. This makes it easy to identify the primary and backup charge so as not to blow the biggin' first.

Okay that is all for now, hope you enjoy and comment freely!

I love my drill press, it gets used for cutting CRs, with sanding drums on wood working projects, occasionally turned into a nose cone lathe, of course just drilling holes. Its the second most used tool in my shop, first being the Tablesaw, and after the drill press is my router. Scroll saws with circle cutting jigs and my belt/disc sander combo are also popular.

Good luck on your quest, looks good so far, not sure about the deployment charge weights but whatever works for you.

THis looks like a nice build.

Cory said:

Recovery -Applies to both
Main (final weight allowing) - Fruity Chutes Iris 48" Ultra standard chute with deployment bag.

Click to expand...

11 pound +/- 3" DS on a 48" iris. As a sidenote, the iris makes a great water anchor as well. The description the guy who found it gave was "it looked like a beaver (NC) chasing a Jellyfish......"



It's also handy for slowing down drag racing minvans....

DizWolf said:

11 pound +/- 3" DS on a 48" iris. As a sidenote, the iris makes a great water anchor as well. The description the guy who found it gave was "it looked like a beaver (NC) chasing a Jellyfish......"

Click to expand...

:rofl: Thanks for the GREAT mental picture. Probabably the only thing less likely than a tall tree recovery in the Texas panhandle, West Texas, and Argonia, KS is a major water recovery.
Hopefully this post doesn't set into motion the karmactic influences ending with me in a small farm pond looking for a rocket.:flyingpig:

Cory said:

:rofl: Thanks for the GREAT mental picture. Probabably the only thing less likely than a tall tree recovery in the Texas panhandle, West Texas, and Argonia, KS is a major water recovery.
Hopefully this post doesn't set into motion the karmactic influences ending with me in a small farm pond looking for a rocket.:flyingpig:

Click to expand...

Odds are better for an open sewage tank.... :eyepop:

mine was equally unlikely...

Cory said:

FINALLY PICTURES!!!:duck:
Repurposed the recently outgrown "parts" bath :lol: The sad part is my daughter outgrew it first, my son just recently made the leap.

Click to expand...

You know that since you "repurposed" that, you do realize that you will need it for it's original purpose again!

DizWolf the broad view, flight profiles aside, the Google Earth images do look very eerily similar to a few I have on file. I really hope the time isn't near for a water recovery ESPECIALLY irrigation runoff.
Handeman- if that turns out to be the case am blaming the comment:caffeine:. Each child reduces the rocket budget exponentially, but the returns are well worth it! Actually got a chance to get back to the build this afternoon with my favorite helper. Shown with a crashed Vagabond kept specifically for her after a core sample.

Grandad took her for a ride on the scooter, and if it were up to her she would wear the helmet all the time


After a while organizing and once the help was off to nap time - the build resumed. I figured I had a little time and set out everything I wanted to accomplish and went to work.


First off was the tracker bays. I have used PEM nuts for removability in the past, but decided to make these permanent. Didn't really enjoy the past experience drilling and countersinking a NC. I started by "locking in" the 1/4"-20 allthreads (same size throughout builds). As previously mentioned, any threaded point I percieve as permanent gets the LOCTITE RED treatment. I use a combination of stop nuts on one side and standard nuts with lock washers on the other (again common throughout both).


I was doing the final dry fitting, and ALMOST started mixing the RocketPoxy when it dawned on me I hadn't installed the retention point. So a quick trip to the press and a little more RED.



With the NC's curing and safely tucked away -


I removed all the hardware from the BP I felt was best from yesterdays two and started with the all thread holes-


Then using yesterdays notes marked the still attached BPs


A few more minutes making shavings and the job was done.


Then back to the bench to assemble the new and RED the previously assembled.


After few favorite albums including Pantera's "Cowboys From Hell", a large dose of Willie Nelson, finishing with Jimi's "Experience" - I am really happy with todays progress, especially considering I wasn't expecting to have any time off today - BONUS!:boat:

Got home from work today to find a few packages and like a kid on Christmas with only slightly more discipline opened everything.


I was a little apprehensive, but deployment bags have been on my mind since L1. Also, this is my first time using the Fruity Chutes Iris and in the running around the garage test I have to say seems like the easiest opening in like tests. . I plan to use a 12" Top Flight pilot chute for extra insurance and after playing with the chute and test packing the deployment bag my confidence is high on a safe soft recovery.

First - HAPPY ST. PATRICKS DAY! - The town I reside, Shamrock, hosts the official Texas state celebration and Saturday was filled with good fun for all. Nothing like the wonder in a childs eyes upon beholding the light show that even such a humble carnival provides after dark.

I have been squeezing every last moment I can find after work, kids bedtime, and one good full day last weekend. I forgot how fun being lost in build could be, and somehow even dual builds has yet to become laborious.

A note - building is taking place side by side, the picture/explanation order is for thread coherence (if that is possible)

Started my figuring out the MM placement for the tailcone retainer on the A3. Filleted one side at a time, omitting the fillet where fin clearance through the slot is critical. Once cured, and after dry fitting and checking fin and tailcone fit some more RP was mixed up and the MMT set in place. Broke out the trusty estes fin alignment guide and started double dipping fins.

Meanwhile I cut fins for NAK, had hoped for some feedback on the size but build must go on! Went with 3 calibers of stability with the L840

Decided to bring out the dangerous but effective fin beveling jig (shown with test piece). I posted about this jig previously even promised some follow up. The best follow up, use JC's method, as it is far less dangerous to knuckle skin.
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For me at some point a list becomes necessary to help direct my focus, and on to tacking fins...


Using construction paper I made templates, then transferred with sharpie to the FG. I cut and applied the first to check the fit before cutting the remaining two. Forgot to cut the peel ply until after the application on round one and Frankensteined it together, the finish improved with better thought out peel ply application.


Utilizing some advice given in my last build I rolled the AF to do fillets (PL-4500) on two fins at once instead of both sides of the same fin. Really pleased with the results.


After finishing all the external fillets my first time with foam went without pictures. VERY messy and you have to work quick but I will use this method again in the future after seeing the results firsthand. Used PL-4500 and set the final centering ring and AP retainer.


CONTINUED...

Went over the list with my other favorite helper, and liking the progress continued forward.






All in all, starting to take final shape in the simulations and coming together much faster than I anticiapated. Received the HAZ-MAT box from Loki today with the L840 and am more excited than ever to get back in the shop when I can and continue. Still have a lot of holes to drill, holes to tap, holes to bevel, PEM nuts to set, plus test.test.test - repeat test.test.test. - but I am seeing the fire at the end of the nozzle! Now off to bed so I can make it to work in the morning an continue to finance this adventure! :bangbang::caffeine:

After receiving orders from the boss…

I went back to work on the A3. After putting everything together and making a paper template. I started from the rear and moved forward. 3 shear pins in the booster and NC and 2 – 8/32 in the payload/AVbay section.


For the PEM nuts in the coupler, I started by drilling and tapping for the #8s (to hold in place while working the other side) then countersank the AF before setting the nuts. Before long everything was attached.


Next was bench testing the altimeters with the trusty test bulb. This is my first time using LiPo s with a RRC3 so I decided to double check how it handled a CJ lighter as well.


Once I was convinced everything was good to go, I mixed a little RP and filled the holes and double secured the PEM nuts.

Love your build Cory. Keep up the great work!

Thanks for the comment Bill, hope you continue to enjoy the builds - I sure am!!! Got off early yesterday and today and with no one else home I have been in the shop basically non-stop!
Realizing how close to completion the A3 was, the decision was made to complete the build. I started by packing the main and drogue trains then went about prepping the rocket like it was launch day doing everything but connecting power leads and loading charges.


Then again using the handy Estes fin alignment jig, measured the CG the did a full up weight to make sure the sum of the parts used along the way are equal to the real whole.


My first time attending Airfest in 2013, I met Crazy Jim and had a chance to ask his methods for ground testing and have been using it since. Bench test the altimeters every way possible with everything in the intended flight configuration then just run wiring through the switchband to the desired terminal to be tested allowing the removal of the electronics for testing. Ignoring the calculators suggestion of 1.6g loaded 1.0g charges for both sides.

I was not disappointed getting nice energetic separations on both sides pushing out the laundry in both cases. The separations were so good I only intend to use 2.0g charges for backup.
Pleased with all aspects of the build went ahead and applied the included decal. Sporting an ear to ear I stepped back to admire the flight ready stack.



Feeling on a roll I pulled out the beautiful Loki 76/3600 and AP retainer connected the two miuns about 1/4 turn and put in place. The nice thing about natural glass is its transparency. Doesn't come through in the pictures how easy it was to see the retainer and place the holes where I wanted. Using a drill, tap, 82° countersink, and 3-8/32 mil spec screws I set the retainer. Satisfied the placement was good and the thrust ring was firmly seated against the rear of the AF I pulled out the assembly and set the PEM nuts. I wanted to link Waco's L3 thread where I learned this method, but the search engine stars are out of alignment for me today.




Just a note on the AeroPack MD retainer and snap ring cases.
I have read on this forum some suggest the ability of the forward bulkhead on a snap ring case to rotate can cause the case to become un-removable ("spinny spinny"). This does not seem like it will be a problem. I installed a liner to keep the bulkhead from moving back in the propellant free case, but I was able to install, fully tighten, then remove the case NO PROBLEM even though the o-rings are well greased and the bulkhead can rotate. Not sure if this is true with all snap ring cases, but the Loki 54 & 76 seem perfectly capable of using the AP MD retainer. YMMV

Relieved that part of the build was dealt with I went ahead and tackled the last thing on the list concerning me with the need for precision. Using 1010 rail buttons intended for use with T-nuts, after slightly under drilling the holes using the screw to thread the hole attached the buttons. The clearance was almost perfect, but I went ahead and filed the screw to avoid scratching the case. I mounted both buttons in this manner so I can put the AP anywhere with any length motor without being limited by a T-nut.


Thats where I called it last night, but I have been back in the shop for a few hours already today, just taking a break - MORE SOON!

Got distracted by another rocketry related project (another thread coming soon), and didn't get much more done. Spent about an 45 mins sanding with 100 grit and decided to do the topcoats vertical. Don't laugh too hard when you see the picture of how this was accomplished. Applied about 15 grams of clean AeroPoxy most of which will be sanded off with 220. I am really happy with the amount of low spot filling achieved in the first coat and may only need one more epoxy sanding cycle before paint.

Had some time Friday & Saturday afternoon/night and even to my surprise knocked out almost everything on the NAK. I started by finishing up the Avbay - ALMOST identical to the first. I liked the new Stratologger CF so much I decided to use it again and save the RRC2+ for another mission in the future. The only substantive difference was the use of individual connections for each main charge terminal as opposed to the dual connections used on both drogue sections. Once again I pulled out the good old test bulb and connected both altimeters to their respective PC software and tested every terminal multiple times. I like to start a voltage test on the Stratologgers then fire the pyro event multiple times to see the battery voltage doesn't plummet under load (not sure the RRC3 (mDACS) can do this).


After running all the diagnostics available, I set the altimeters to my liking - noted the event timings - stood back and smiled


That concluded the fun Friday, unfortunately even though I snapped away during the Saturday NAK ground testing I hadn't replaced the memory card from the night before so missed a few shots here. Using the same paper template made for the A3 I started with 3-2x56 booster shear pins repeated the process for the NC eyeball alignied the two then set the 2-8x32 screws and PEM nuts the same as previously described. After 3 cycles of vertical epoxy coating sanding about 85% off between coatings there were still some minor divots in the fillet areas and I decided to try Bondo Glazing Putty for my first time. I have to say it worked really well for my application and sands away very easy with 400 grit. Pictured are the best and worst with the other being somewhere in between. (Ground testing separation charges occurred before final sanding)


I had asked my wife to pick me up two colors of her choice that would work well with some Stickershock green flames and lettering. Couldn't be happier with the choices! My first time using the new Krylon formula and nozzles, not to be confused with the Krylon DUAL, this was COVERMAX paint and primer in 1. I will double check the finish this afternoon, but after two light coats 10 minutes apart the nice from 10-15 ft finish intended appears complete.
(Pictured after first coating - camera flash lightened the apparent color somewhat)


All that remains for total completion of the two builds is the NAK's final full up weight, physically measuring the CG, and adjusting RockSim to agree. With decals on order looks like this whole building process start to finish will have taken place in less than 30 days :jaw: . It probably had something to do with the amount of repetition, but somehow taking my time and stopping anytime the building was anything but fun actually produced my fastest build results to date. Weather providing, looking to launch both these birds on their maden flights at the upcoming POTROCS launch April 11th https://www.potrocs.org/.

Well both are finished, awaiting flight. Unfortunately the weather isn't looking great this weekend with clouds, wind, and possible rain. Looking like we will be able to launch for at least a few hours, but I am not feeling confident about high altitude flights. This will be my first trip to the Boys Ranch launch site, and I want to become a little more familiar with the recovery area before walking a few miles through it looking for a rocket. So I am planning to launch the A3 this weekend, but will probably leave the NAK at home so I won't be to tempted to unleash it to 15kft. I will post a flight report here as soon as available, but in the mean time thanks to Mark from Stickershock for the awesome decals as it really pulled everything together.

Great looking projects!
Cant wait see launch pics

Bring the rocket and leave the motor at home. You can show it off.

The weather proved to be an issue Saturday and the launch was pushed to Sunday, and with the thick clouds the waiver was greatly reduced. Regardless, the winds were light and spirits were high. With the day cut in half I didn't do very well with pictures, and the NAK never left the house. Hopefully Mightyrocketman and Shootoneup got some better pictures and will share here.

What I did get....DATA! Working on my Fruitychutes data entry form after this post, hoping for my first ever monetary return on a flight - hence the amount of deployment sequence photos! I'm posting both the actual flight files and screenshots in Excel for anyone who doesn't have the mDacs or DataCap softwares. ENJOY :cyclops:
View attachment A3 Data Screenshots.xlsx
View attachment Adventurer 3 Maiden Flight.rff
View attachment Adventurer 3 Maiden Flight Backup.pf2

Rocketry Warehouse Adventurer 3 on a Loki J525-LW


15" Pilot Chute as it clears the payload tube with the Iris in a 9" deployment bag @~1000' AGL.


Less than a second later.



Gonna get with Mr.Onebadhawk and replace the harness with the same length but a shorter length to the 3rd loop to avoid the NC payload interaction.




ALMOST DOWN WHEN I SAW IT AND DAMN - GOT ME!


Much to my relief, the on-site fire support crew member was able to handle the situation. After pulling it low enough to grab the payload section, he cut the top harness (hence the need for a replacement anyway) and the parachute pulled the NC and remaining shock cord away. PHHHEEEWWW! Had everything in my hands about 15 minutes after landing on the line, what a relief.

Look for another thread soon with this flight and the others I have pictures for including my first ever research flight motor!

Nice flights Cory, way to go!

Thanks Bill, and thanks for following. You planning for Airfest this year?

Here is a link to the video Harry got, got a good laugh at the 2 minute mark when the collective sigh of the crowd lets you know it landed - and landed on a power line hahahahha. Thanks Harry.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vsui5vrvo4gv7ds/MVI_1861.MP4?dl=0

Great pics! Glad you were able to get it back so quick!

I understand how the upper/main shock cord is set up, although I would attach the main closer to the nose cone, but that's just me. What I do wonder about is why the extra long cord on the drogue side? It didn't look like you were using a drogue, is the long cord to compensate for no drogue and reduce the odds of a payload-fin can collision on the way down? How strong was the shock on the system when the fin can hit the end of that long cord after the main opened?

Handeman said:

Great pics! Glad you were able to get it back so quick!

I understand how the upper/main shock cord is set up, although I would attach the main closer to the nose cone, but that's just me. What I do wonder about is why the extra long cord on the drogue side? It didn't look like you were using a drogue, is the long cord to compensate for no drogue and reduce the odds of a payload-fin can collision on the way down? How strong was the shock on the system when the fin can hit the end of that long cord after the main opened?

Click to expand...

Thanks, the recovery pics of the A3 were definitely more informative than my typical launch picture even if a little blurry.

No drogue as you indicate, and I agree the NC and parachute should be closer together to avoid the midair interaction/collision. Plan to email Ted @Onebadhawk to get a 25 footer with the third loop 12" from the NC loop.

It does seem considering the slack loop caught by the picture in the drogue line makes it look like it is going to hit hard. Never seemed to me like there was a moment of POP when everything came to tension, done it before by attaching a drogue closer to the booster section and letting it drop 30+ feet unrestricted (NOT GOOD). This was more like an extended pendulum after the bottom out settling nicely thereafter. The main reason for the somewhat excessively long drogue line is to help reduce the chance of payload booster interaction/collision on drogueless recovery, but did make powerline recovery easier, same would go for tall trees and other rocket eating monsters :kill:.

[video]https://youtu.be/SkOMngrwR_Y[/video]

Here is the slo mo video

Cory said:

Thanks Bill, and thanks for following. You planning for Airfest this year?

Here is a link to the video Harry got, got a good laugh at the 2 minute mark when the collective sigh of the crowd lets you know it landed - and landed on a power line hahahahha. Thanks Harry.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vsui5vrvo4gv7ds/MVI_1861.MP4?dl=0

Click to expand...

Airfest......Oh heck yeah I'll be there!

Mightyrocketman said:

[video]https://youtu.be/SkOMngrwR_Y[/video]

Here is the slo mo video

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting, really like the slo mo. First time I have wanted to trade my Samsung back to an Iphone.

I'd put the main on the end of the cord, and the nosecone on the third loop. No collision or spinning worries.

very nice builds! I have the same batteries for my next few builds, did you try to measure the current draw using the lipo batteries?

DizWolf said:

I'd put the main on the end of the cord, and the nosecone on the third loop. No collision or spinning worries.

Click to expand...

Never thought of doing it that way. Thanks, going to try the NC on the 3rd loop next flight.

RKeller said:

very nice builds! I have the same batteries for my next few builds, did you try to measure the current draw using the lipo batteries?

Click to expand...

Thanks... I have not....I have used these batteries for about 8 flights on 3 different altimeters and have had great success so far. I realize they can put out enough to fry the altimeter, but I don't plan to light a motor just pop e matches. The longest I have had one running was over 3 hours- beeping altitude for the majority of that time - and had barely dropped the voltage below the labels nominal rating of 7.4V (lower than actual nominal voltage of over 8V@ full charge).